New Downtown Arena

[BoulderSooner]

If they money is so good for the Thunder ownership who is to say they don't sign the lease and then break it? To my knowledge we have no idea what the financial terms are for this 25 year deal Holt is hyping and if someone offers Bennet $5 Billion it may be perfectly doable to just pay the penalty and walk or just walk and let the lawyers sort it out.

I guess I am saying if the Thunder owners truly want to sell this arena probably doesn't stop them

that has never happened anywhere in any city

[Dob Hooligan]

Please don't think this is a lecturing comment. But...leagues NEED cities. And a lot of them. Moving is not easy or inexpensive for any team or league. Also, there are around 120 "Big 4" league teams, and the revenue needs are such that they can't all fit in 30 cities. They need a lot of 1 league cities. The NBA has been clear that they built their empire on "The only game in town" cities. The NBA loves it.

The NBA is not excited about leaving OKC to make Seattle a "4 league" city, or taking Las Vegas from zero to 4 in 10 years. Which is what would happen if Las Vegas went from the Vegas Golden Knights in 2017 to the Raiders, Athletics and NBA whatevers by 2027. I think the most legit new market for the NBA if the Thunder moved is Louisville. And there is no chance anyone spends $4-5 billion to buy the Thunder and move them there. The revenue needs on servicing a purchase price of that price is astronomical. No new media rights deal can get anyone near to that level.

[April in the Plaza]

Please don't think this is a lecturing comment. But...leagues NEED cities. And a lot of them. Moving is not easy or inexpensive for any team or league. Also, there are around 120 "Big 4" league teams, and the revenue needs are such that they can't all fit in 30 cities. They need a lot of 1 league cities. The NBA has been clear that they built their empire on "The only game in town" cities. The NBA loves it.

The NBA is not excited about leaving OKC to make Seattle a "4 league" city, or taking Las Vegas from zero to 4 in 10 years. Which is what would happen if Las Vegas went from the Vegas Golden Knights in 2017 to the Raiders, Athletics and NBA whatevers by 2027. I think the most legit new market for the NBA if the Thunder moved is Louisville. And there is no chance anyone spends $4-5 billion to buy the Thunder and move them there. The revenue needs on servicing a purchase price of that price is astronomical. No new media rights deal can get anyone near to that level.

That’s actually a pretty great point. The NBA isn’t necessarily cool with franchises moving from small markets to big markets. It’s not good for the brand.

https://www.thestreet.com/sports/ste...onics-move-nba

[SouthOKC]

That’s actually a pretty great point. The NBA isn’t necessarily cool with franchises moving from small markets to big markets. It’s not good for the brand.

https://www.thestreet.com/sports/ste...onics-move-nba

Who do you think pressures the ownership to formulate plans for new venues? The NBA has a revenue share model and they penalize underperforming teams that don’t meet 70% of the league average. I believe your point of view is correct and the NBA dislikes the optics of moving a team but the one thing they hate more is losing money.

[cornhusker740]

This makes me nervous for December.

https://okcfox.com/news/local/majori...ow-basketball#

Over half of Oklahoma City's residents oppose a 1% sales tax that would help fund a new arena, a new Emerson College Poll found.

53% of OKC residents oppose a 1% sales tax in Oklahoma City for six years that would ultimately fund the $900 million stadium for the Oklahoma City Thunder.

[David]

I feel like that's the poll that was already discussed here a page or two back which surveyed a very small number of people actually in OKC.

[caaokc]

I think this will be closer than all of the maps votes, I hope I’m wrong though.

[Pete]

Received this press release today:

*************

Renowned National Pollster Determines Majority of OKC Residents Against Arena

Oklahoma City, OK - October 17, 2023 - Emerson College Polling found that 53% of OKC residents are against building a new arena while 25% are unsure and only 22% support it. David Holt has repeatedly suggested other polling that is supportive of an arena exists while refusing to release it. This comes after also saying we had “14 months of public discussion” that did not occur. The public clearly knows better.




“Our Mayor is disconnected from what the people want. This deal puts 95% of the burden on taxpayers and is the most poorly negotiated NBA subsidy in the league. We need a better deal and a better stewardship of taxpayers money. ” Says Nabilah Rawdah, executive director of Oklahoma Progress Now.

Emerson College Polling has an A- rating from 538 meaning they are routinely on target with their polls.

Research contained at buyyourownarena.com shows that arenas are not good economic investments. It also shows that we are getting one of the worst NBA deals in the US. The Thunder ownership are also one of the wealthiest ownership groups and have the ability to contribute substantially more.

“This polling shows the public has deep misgivings about spending $900M on a new arena, when basic needs are not being met. We are asking voters to demand this deal be renegotiated and vote NO on December 12th. Let’s get a better deal for OKC!” Says Nick Singer, communications director of Oklahoma Progress Now.

We are announcing an Arena Community Conversation at Grill on the Hill, Oct 28th from 11:30a-1p to discuss the impacts of this vote and how citizens can make their voices heard. We will also announce preliminary results of our survey, found at the bottom of our website.

More details on this effort can be found at: www.buyyourownarena.com

[PhiAlpha]

If Oklahoma Progress Now is the group behind this, I’m not all that concerned. That group seems a little nuts based on their blog posts. Trying to think of a good local nutty right wing equivalent.

[cornhusker740]

The Buy Your Own Arena website is very out of touch with reality. For instance, saying the Paycom Center is "only" 25 years old. Have they looked at how old the rest of the NBA arenas are?

Can't believe there's this much pushback. Do people actually want the team to leave?

[scottk]

The Buy Your Own Arena website is very out of touch with reality. For instance, saying the Paycom Center is "only" 25 years old. Have they looked at how old the rest of the NBA arenas are?

Can't believe there's this much pushback. Do people actually want the team to leave?

30 Arenas in the NBA.

OKC has the 10th newest arena, opened in 2002 as Ford Center, the same time as San Antonio Spurs opened ATT Center/Frost Bank Center built for the Spurs after they became disenchanted with the cavernous and only 10 year old Alamodome.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ciation_arenas

However, using a car analogy...

OKC got the compact sedan that sits 2 people comfortably, but can hold 5 people if you squeeze them in and through the years we have added the bluetooth and smart dash capabilities, replaced the headlights with LED ones, got a nicer set of tires, and even got heated seats.

However, at the end of the day, it's still a compact sedan, while just about every other arena in the NBA (even the older ones) are the full size SUV's and offer a much more comfortable ride for five people and have a lot more bells and whistles than you could ever get with the compact sedan.

I don't think the majority of people in OKC want the team to leave, I think the general public was expecting the team ownership to contribute more than 5% of the new building costs.

At the end of the day it comes down to who shows up and votes on Tuesday in December.

A reminder too for those passionate Thunder season ticket holders in Edmond, Norman, Yukon, Midwest City, etc, you can't vote.

[PhiAlpha]

30 Arenas in the NBA.

OKC has the 10th newest arena, opened in 2002 as Ford Center, the same time as San Antonio Spurs opened ATT Center/Frost Bank Center built for the Spurs after they became disenchanted with the cavernous and only 10 year old Alamodome.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ciation_arenas

However, using a car analogy...

OKC got the compact sedan that sits 2 people comfortably, but can hold 5 people if you squeeze them in and through the years we have added the bluetooth and smart dash capabilities, replaced the headlights with LED ones, got a nicer set of tires, and even got heated seats.

However, at the end of the day, it's still a compact sedan, while just about every other arena in the NBA (even the older ones) are the full size SUV's and offer a much more comfortable ride for five people and have a lot more bells and whistles than you could ever get with the compact sedan.

I don't think the majority of people in OKC want the team to leave, I think the general public was expecting the team ownership to contribute more than 5% of the new building costs.

At the end of the day it comes down to who shows up and votes on Tuesday in December.

A reminder too for those passionate Thunder season ticket holders in Edmond, Norman, Yukon, Midwest City, etc, you can't vote.

Yeah of course, as you touched on, that doesn’t consider large buildings that were built to NBA specs initially and have been massively renovated since 2002. Madison square garden for example says it was built in 1968 but was renovated substantially in 1991 and underwent a $1 billion renovation in 2013 or the United center which was built in 1992 but underwent major renovations between 2009-2014 (couldnt find the cost but based on the description it had to have been in the multiple hundreds of millions) and then a $300 million expansion in 2016. I would imagine if it was seen as cost effective/feasible to expand Paycom, they would elect to do that over building a new one but at some point you have to know when to punt.

Also, it would be at least 12th on the last by 2030 if no other arenas are proposed and built.

[Jersey Boss]

If Oklahoma Progress Now is the group behind this, I’m not all that concerned. That group seems a little nuts based on their blog posts. Trying to think of a good local nutty right wing equivalent.

It seems by your comment you have an issue with the messanger and not the message.
538.com rates Emerson polling A- and that polling data is what should concern you.

[BDP]

What's interesting is that the question is "do you support or oppose a 1% sales tax in Oklahoma city that would fund a new $900 Million (arena) stadium for the Oklahoma City Thunder?"

Yeah, I'd vote 'no' on that.

But, in reality, we'll be voting on a 1% (.01 cent) sales tax in Oklahoma City that would fund a new $900 million arena for the city of Oklahoma City, of which, an NBA team, the Oklahoma City Thunder, has agreed to be be a tenant for 25+ years.

I would love to have such an arena in Oklahoma City, because of all it would bring to the city, But I would not vote for one without there being anchor tenant.

The irony is that the only reason a $900 million arena is even being considered as a possibility in Oklahoma City is because of the Thunder.

But the main reason people are going to vote against it is because of the Thunder.

[PhiAlpha]

It seems by your comment you have an issue with the messanger and not the message.
538.com rates Emerson polling A- and that polling data is what should concern you.

Definitely have an issue with the messenger. Admittedly have never heard of Emerson polling. Just have seen how wildly inaccurate polls have been in general over the last few years.

[PhiAlpha]

What's interesting is that the question is "do you support or oppose a 1% sales tax in Oklahoma city that would fund a new $900 Million (arena) stadium for the Oklahoma City Thunder?"

Yeah, I'd vote 'no' on that.

But, in reality, we'll be voting on a 1% (.01 cent) sales tax in Oklahoma City that would fund a new $900 million arena for the city of Oklahoma City, of which, an NBA team, the Oklahoma City Thunder, has agreed to be be a tenant for 25+ years.

I would love to have such an arena in Oklahoma City, because of all it would bring to the city, But I would not vote for one without there being anchor tenant.

The irony is that a only reason a $900 million arena is even being considered as a possibility in Oklahoma City is because of the Thunder.

But the main reason people are going to vote against it is because of the Thunder.

Thank you. You saved me a lot of typing and did a much better job then I would’ve in trying to explain why I have an issue with the group steering the anti arena discussion and that was behind the poll.

[LocoAko]

Definitely have an issue with the messenger. Admittedly have never heard of Emerson polling. Just have seen how wildly inaccurate polls have been in general over the last few years.

Emerson is a major political pollster, one of the most reputable out there. Not sure how that holds up for "questions" like this though.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...erson-college/

[David]

…are we sure this is actually going to pass?

https://emersoncollegepolling.com/ok...roval-ratings/

Ho dang that's surprising. I don't think the proposal is that underwater, but given how the other findings of the poll (Biden, Stitt approval ratings) seem to jive with overall sentiment, that's certainly got to be worrying for the Mayor's office.

However, note that the only thing that matters here is the Oklahoma City poll, which, with only 82 respondents, is limited in generalizability.

Okay, yeah, I thought as much. The poll that is being discussed surveyed 82 people in OKC.

[Jersey Boss]

Okay, yeah, I thought as much. The poll that is being discussed surveyed 82 people in OKC.

Yet Holt refuses to release his polling. Why?

[April in the Plaza]

Yet Holt refuses to release his polling. Why?

I’m also wondering why he won’t release the study supporting his claim that the team generates $600 million in direct economic impact to the city.

[Mississippi Blues]

Okay, yeah, I thought as much. The poll that is being discussed surveyed 82 people in OKC.

I’m not incredibly familiar with the methodology of polling, but the idea is that you can get fairly accurate indications with low numbers like that through random sampling and weighting, which is intended to account for the demographics polled in relation to census data. Many pollsters favor smaller sample sizes as once they start polling beyond a certain level, resources are being wasted to get a reading that statistically won’t change enough to make a difference. I believe it’s more about the wording of a question and the randomness of the polls than the raw number of people polled.

[borchard]

Am I wrong to think that the question SHOULD be stated as; "Do you favor keeping the tax rate the same as it's been since 1995 to fund a $900 million arena?"

[BoulderSooner]

Yet Holt refuses to release his polling. Why?

Holt doesn't have any of his own polling .. he has nothing to release ..


private entities have their own polling .. but what they do with it is up to them

[David]

I’m not incredibly familiar with the methodology of polling, but the idea is that you can get fairly accurate indications with low numbers like that through random sampling and weighting, which is intended to account for the demographics polled in relation to census data. Many pollsters favor smaller sample sizes as once they start polling beyond a certain level, resources are being wasted to get a reading that statistically won’t change enough to make a difference. I believe it’s more about the wording of a question and the randomness of the polls than the raw number of people polled.

82 people is just about meaninglessly small, which you can see up in Pete's post with that picture that has the confidence interval listed as +/- 10.8%.

This wasn't even a poll about this issue specifically, it was a larger statewide political poll and they threw in the stadium question as a freebie. That's why it has the pointless opinion rating for all of Oklahoma for a question that will only be voted on by OKC residents.

[David]

Yet Holt refuses to release his polling. Why?

I don't know, but I kind of also don't care since that is meaningless to the point I am arguing.