University Town Center

[PhiAlpha]

I guarantee if this were up to the voters it would fail miserably. This is a horrible plan that is getting back-doored. I’m a football and basketball season ticket holder and will not be renewing my tickets if this moves forward.

lol. Bring on that LNC love.

This is like people saying they’re going to leave the country if (insert candidate name) is elected president. You probably won’t, but if you do, there will be plenty who are willing to take your place due to the arena being closer to OKC or just not being LNC. And there are plenty who will take your football tickets with the SEC move. You’re cutting off your nose to spite your face to make a stand that they’d be happy to lose you over.

[Rover]

I guarantee if this were up to the voters it would fail miserably. This is a horrible plan that is getting back-doored. I’m a football and basketball season ticket holder and will not be renewing my tickets if this moves forward.

Nothing about this rings true. Most Normanites don't hate the university like you try to spin. But most hate Lloyd Noble arena.

Post your tickets as this will happen and there will be many many people wanting to buy your tickets, if they are real.

[BG918]

lol. Bring on that LNC love.

This is like people saying they’re going to leave the country if (insert candidate name) is elected president. You probably won’t, but if you do, there will be plenty who are willing to take your place due to the arena being closer to OKC or just not being LNC. And there are plenty who will take your football tickets with the SEC move. You’re cutting off your nose to spite your face to make a stand that they’d be happy to lose you over.

I just want them to bring it to a vote of both the Norman voters who will be paying for it and the OU students and student-athletes who this is supposed to be built for. If it majority passes both then I will shut up and grit my teeth, for the people have spoken. But if not then OU should go back to the drawing board. But they won’t and that is why I’m no longer supporting them with my hard-earned dollars.

[BimmerSooner]

will not be renewing my tickets if this moves forward.

I call your bluff. I don’t believe you.

[Rover]

I just want them to bring it to a vote of both the Norman voters who will be paying for it and the OU students and student-athletes who this is supposed to be built for. If it majority passes both then I will shut up and grit my teeth, for the people have spoken. But if not then OU should go back to the drawing board. But they won’t and that is why I’m no longer supporting them with my hard-earned dollars.

I sure hope they can live without your ”support”.

[BoulderSooner]

I guarantee if this were up to the voters it would fail miserably. This is a horrible plan that is getting back-doored. I’m a football and basketball season ticket holder and will not be renewing my tickets if this moves forward.

so thanks for letting everyone know you are not much of a fan ....

also good thing there doesn't need to be a vote ...

[BoulderSooner]

I just want them to bring it to a vote of both the Norman voters who will be paying for it and the OU students and student-athletes who this is supposed to be built for.

the Norman voters are NOT paying for it .... that is the point

[bombermwc]

I would strongly encourage people to not "take their toys and go home" if they don't get their way here. I think this whole thing is dumb too. but not renewing your tickets will absolutely not change anyone's mind. Rather, you become the very worst fair weather fan and your support for the students is lost.

If this is an arena that the city is helping fund, I do think it's fair to ask the voters. But if they're just creating a TIF, then honestly the voters don't have a place. That's why we elect people, to vote on matters like that without us being involved...ie representative democracy. If you don't like what they are doing, you exercise your opinion at the next election. If the majority agree, then you see a leadership change. If it's related to creating a tax, i believe the law requires approval (like a millage change) doesn't it? But if it's not making a change in taxes, then the people do not vote directly on the issue. That's not new or a wild idea or anything.

But if you "leave", well someone else is going to just take your spot. I'm changing gyms because the one I was going to is too busy. They're not going to miss me at all....because they have a million other customers. My single voice matters not in that large crowd. I would argue the same is true here. One person leaving in a harump because of the arena, will be lost in the noise. In fact, when arenas open, they tend to have INCREASED attendance for a while as people come to check out the new place. So your voice will be even less heard. I'm not trying to be a turd about it, just realistic here.

I would strongly encourage you to voice your opinions to the athletic department. But don't leave just beacuse you dont potentially get your way. It's likely that you won't and no one suffers here but you and the students.

[jedicurt]

i mean if it moves to UNP, i will probably buy season tickets for mens basketball, i already have them for the womens, and gymnastics

[BG918]

I just have a problem with OU ignoring students and instead catering to “fans from OKC” and moving the arena next to I-35 five miles from campus. Poll the students, who this arena is supposed to be for considering OU is still a university, and see if the results are in favor. And even though this isn’t a tax the people of Norman are “paying” for it by siphoning 100% of the ad valorem and sales tax from UNP for 25 years until the arena is paid off or $600M is diverted, whichever comes first. Those are taxes that could be going to Norman schools, police, fire, streets, etc. So yes Norman voters should have a say and their vote should mean something.

[bombermwc]

I just have a problem with OU ignoring students and instead catering to “fans from OKC” and moving the arena next to I-35 five miles from campus. Poll the students, who this arena is supposed to be for considering OU is still a university, and see if the results are in favor. And even though this isn’t a tax the people of Norman are “paying” for it by siphoning 100% of the ad valorem and sales tax from UNP for 25 years until the arena is paid off or $600M is diverted, whichever comes first. Those are taxes that could be going to Norman schools, police, fire, streets, etc. So yes Norman voters should have a say and their vote should mean something.

It's a nice thought, but students do not make up the majority of the ticket holders. And quite a lot of them drive to the games. If you polled students, i think you would find that many of them do not live on campus and would have to drive no matter where it is.

Football for sure is true. People come from all over the state and beyond. The student section is small and never full...not usually even 1/2 full.
Softball, it's pretty much exclusively families and NOT students.

Just a couple of examples, but asking the students is probably not going to happen and frankly, won't determine the outcome. The arena is not FOR the students in any way shape or form. But that's a whole other rabbit hole of a conversation that we could need to go down where the arena is only a small player in a much larger enterprise.

[BoulderSooner]

for it by siphoning 100% of the ad valorem and sales tax from UNP for 25 years

this is simply not true ... it is not 100% of the tax ..

[BoulderSooner]

[b]Poll the students, who this arena is supposed to be for considering OU is still a university, .

the only students this arena is for are the athletes .. and they are close to if not 100% for it ..

[bison34]

A huge point is this: the development has been super slow moving north in UNP, and has been sporadic, and not uniform or guided in any way. A bunch of crappy strip malls that have nothing unique or special about them, or in them. It may be a decade or longer before anything "organically" happened here. So it sits empty, not generating anything for Norman.

Oh, I forgot about the random Subaru dealership. So if that is what you want for north UNP, good for you. That whole area has way more potential than that, and no one has had any plans for it except OU.

Maybe OU has vision, and the rest of the city is wearing bifocals.

[BG918]

this is simply not true ... it is not 100% of the tax ..

This is directly from a recent Norman Transcript article:

The proposed arena costs $330 million. The University of Oklahoma would provide $100 million, while Norman’s contribution would be $230 million, plus associated debt financing, which could cost up to $600 million total.

The tax increment funding the arena would take 100% of undedicated sales and ad valorem taxes from the project site and several lots outside of it for 25 years, until the arena is paid off, or until $600 million in taxes are diverted, whichever comes first.

The rate of tax diversion was among committee member Rob Norman’s many concerns. He pointed out that in the previous TIF at University North Park, which had an associated project cost of $54 million before financing, half of ad valorem tax revenue and 40% of sales tax revenue still went to Cleveland County and the City of Norman, respectively.

https://www.normantranscript.com/new...92ae1.amp.html

[BoulderSooner]

This is directly from a recent Norman Transcript article:


https://www.normantranscript.com/new...92ae1.amp.html

reading is key

100% of undedicated sales and ad valorem taxes from the project site

WHAT IS BEING PROPOSED?
o The establishment of new Tax Increment Finance Districts (“Rock Creek Entertainment TIF
District”) in Norman, generally along NW 24th Avenue, along Rock Creek Road and east of I-35.
Studies indicate that at completion, the district will be the center of approximately 4,600 jobs
(direct, induced and indirect) and more than 1,000 residential units.
 Increment District 4 is a sales tax increment district and would become effective
5/1/25.
 Increment District 5 is an ad valorem increment district and would become effective
12/31/26.
Three percent of sales tax collected in the TIF District that would go to the City's General Fund
(2.3%) and Capital Fund (0.7%) otherwise, will go to support the Entertainment District project.
1.125% of sales tax collected in the TIF District will still go to the City's Public Safety (0.5%),
Norman Forward (0.5%) and Public Transportation (0.125%) programs.

[PhiAlpha]

I just have a problem with OU ignoring students and instead catering to “fans from OKC” and moving the arena next to I-35 five miles from campus. Poll the students, who this arena is supposed to be for considering OU is still a university, and see if the results are in favor. And even though this isn’t a tax the people of Norman are “paying” for it by siphoning 100% of the ad valorem and sales tax from UNP for 25 years until the arena is paid off or $600M is diverted, whichever comes first. Those are taxes that could be going to Norman schools, police, fire, streets, etc. So yes Norman voters should have a say and their vote should mean something.

Poll the athletes who will play there if they’d prefer a nice arena at UNP or LNC (the options available) and see if they support it.

[Rover]

Poll the athletes who will play there if they’d prefer a nice arena at UNP or LNC (the options available) and see if they support it.

Poll the recruits. Athletes on campus will be long gone. Take the kids to LNC and then show them the arena plans and entertainment district plans and see which one they like. They aren't stupid... they can see the difference and surmise the difference in excitement level of fans showing up. Their athletic development center and student support will be the same and on campus regardless of where the arena is and that is what is most important to them anyway.

[onthestrip]

also good thing there doesn't need to be a vote ...

But you can probably assume there will be a petition to overturn if after the fact, thats where the vote of the people will probably come in. If Norman is anything like Edmond, not too high of a hurdle to get it on the ballot to overturn.

[BoulderSooner]

But you can probably assume there will be a petition to overturn if after the fact, thats where the vote of the people will probably come in. If Norman is anything like Edmond, not too high of a hurdle to get it on the ballot to overturn.

I'm not sure it could be overturned actually ..

not without the city being on the hook for the 600 mil in a different way ... that might actually increase taxes ..

[jedicurt]

I'm not sure it could be overturned actually ..

not without the city being on the hook for the 600 mil in a different way ... that might actually increase taxes ..

this is my understanding as well. a petition could be done to overturn the creation of the tif but that wouldn't stop the project from going forward. would just put the city on the hook for finding another way to get the money that probably ends up worse for the citizens of norman. but i could be wrong

[onthestrip]

A huge point is this: the development has been super slow moving north in UNP, and has been sporadic, and not uniform or guided in any way. A bunch of crappy strip malls that have nothing unique or special about them, or in them. It may be a decade or longer before anything "organically" happened here. So it sits empty, not generating anything for Norman.

Oh, I forgot about the random Subaru dealership. So if that is what you want for north UNP, good for you. That whole area has way more potential than that, and no one has had any plans for it except OU.

Maybe OU has vision, and the rest of the city is wearing bifocals.

Development on a site as large as UNP doesnt happen overnight. There is still empty land around the current stores that will develop first before anything goes to the middle of an empty field. And imo, development that happens 10 years from now, that fully goes into Normans revenues, is better than 25 years of very little.

this is my understanding as well. a petition could be done to overturn the creation of the tif but that wouldn't stop the project from going forward. would just put the city on the hook for finding another way to get the money that probably ends up worse for the citizens of norman. but i could be wrong

I dont see why that would be the case. And if it was, OU going to sue Norman for $600 million? In many cities, a ballot petition within a certain amount of time of a council;s vote, can overturn any decision by the city council.

[BoulderSooner]

Development on a site as large as UNP doesnt happen overnight. There is still empty land around the current stores that will develop first before anything goes to the middle of an empty field. And imo, development that happens 10 years from now, that fully goes into Normans revenues, is better than 25 years of very little.



I dont see why that would be the case. And if it was, OU going to sue Norman for $600 million? In many cities, a ballot petition within a certain amount of time of a council;s vote, can overturn any decision by the city council.

the city would already be on the hook for the 230 million dollar loan .. that wouldn't change ..


do you believe that if the city council voted to build a sky scraper and let the contract for 1 billion dollars that after construction started a city vote could resend that money and contract??

no ..


this is not any different

[onthestrip]

You seem to be taking the position that as soon as the city council votes yes this deal is executed, which is unlikely. WIthout seeing the deal/documents, I cant say.

[Thunderbolt]

I just have a problem with OU ignoring students and instead catering to “fans from OKC” and moving the arena next to I-35 five miles from campus. Poll the students, who this arena is supposed to be for considering OU is still a university, and see if the results are in favor. And even though this isn’t a tax the people of Norman are “paying” for it by siphoning 100% of the ad valorem and sales tax from UNP for 25 years until the arena is paid off or $600M is diverted, whichever comes first. Those are taxes that could be going to Norman schools, police, fire, streets, etc. So yes Norman voters should have a say and their vote should mean something.

Poll: As a student, would you rather have an outdated and old arena in the middle of a commuter parking lot, or would you rather drive an extra 10-15 minutes for a brand new arena that is surrounded by bars and restaurants?