University Town Center

[BoulderSooner]

And as someone in Moore, there is zero interest for us to pay to build an arena with no purpose. Again, no thank you. I.

the powers that be in moore don't feel this way ..

[BoulderSooner]

I appreciate your concern for Norman's economic health but we will be fine if the TIF is voided at the ballot box.

there is no vote to void this TIF at the ballot box

[The]

http://www.ou.edu/insideou/articles/...orman%20campus

Here is why OU won't be getting a new arena anytime soon if this doesn't happen. It goes all the way back to Boren spending like crazy. Galloway got crapped on for being a penny-pincher. Now we know why.

Do you have any documents that aren’t from 5 years ago? Gallogly hasn’t been OU’s president since 2019.

[cinnamonjock]

Where would Moore even put it? Next to Costco? They don't have much space left in their city limits.

[bison34]

Do you have any documents that aren’t from 5 years ago? Gallogly hasn’t been OU’s president since 2019.

You think long-term debt only affects the...short-term? Boren took out a ton of debt to make the campus modern and look very nice, and now that debt is starting to add up.

This is why OU can't just take out more bonds to pay for a new arena, so a public-private effort like this is their best chance for a new arena. Maybe only chance.

[Jersey Boss]

https://www.oudaily.com/news/higher-...a81ca4381.html

A 2022 College Board reported that Oklahoma was first among all states slashing state funding of full time students by 29%. The country as a whole increased funding by 25%.
The State needs to be responsible for their own physical plants, not municipalities.

[Jersey Boss]

You think long-term debt only affects the...short-term? Boren took out a ton of debt to make the campus modern and look very nice, and now that debt is starting to add up.

This is why OU can't just take out more bonds to pay for a new arena, so a public-private effort like this is their best chance for a new arena. Maybe only chance.

OU has a bad credit rating over the Cross Center housing fiasco. Funding a new arena is not the responsibility of Norman. Not our circus, not our monkey.

[The]

You think long-term debt only affects the...short-term? Boren took out a ton of debt to make the campus modern and look very nice, and now that debt is starting to add up.

This is why OU can't just take out more bonds to pay for a new arena, so a public-private effort like this is their best chance for a new arena. Maybe only chance.

I’m asking you to provide documents in support of your argument about OU’s financials that aren’t 5 years old. I said nothing about the arena.

[Jersey Boss]

there is no vote to void this TIF at the ballot box

An initiative petition drive to void it at the ballot box can not commence until the CC approves the two TIF's. You can count on this happening.

[BoulderSooner]

OU has a bad credit rating over the Cross Center housing fiasco. Funding a new arena is not the responsibility of Norman. Not our circus, not our monkey.

things that are not true at all? For 100 Alex.


https://www.fitchratings.com/researc...ollment%20base.

google can be your friend ..

[Jersey Boss]

...

[bison34]

I’m asking you to provide documents in support of your argument about OU’s financials that aren’t 5 years old. I said nothing about the arena.

All I said about that was that since 2019 and Gallogly, OU has changed their development process.

I posted this because it shows that OU has a ton of debt still. And can't afford to issue bonds for the arena. So getting free private money is a way to get a new arena.

[Jersey Boss]

All I said about that was that since 2019 and Gallogly, OU has changed their development process.

I posted this because it shows that OU has a ton of debt still. And can't afford to issue bonds for the arena. So getting free private money is a way to get a new arena.

It makes zero economic sense for Norman to guarantee a $600M loan for a facility that OU will not concede who will own it.

[BimmerSooner]

http://www.ou.edu/insideou/articles/...orman%20campus

Here is why OU won't be getting a new arena anytime soon if this doesn't happen. It goes all the way back to Boren spending like crazy. Galloway got crapped on for being a penny-pincher. Now we know why.

I have some insight into this and can tell you that a great many universities have similar debt. It is not unique to OU. There has been a massive building boom on all college campuses (including a major push for athletic facilities) for the last 15-20 years. It's been incredible and, frankly, unsustainable. OU's got daylighted because of Gallogly's personality and style of management, but it is absolutely something facing many, many universities across the country. Private donations, for whatever type of construction, rarely pay for all of a project; only part of it. Bonds have to finance the majority.

[PoliSciGuy]

I have some insight into this and can tell you that a great many universities have similar debt. It is not unique to OU. There has been a massive building boom on all college campuses (including a major push for athletic facilities) for the last 15-20 years. It's been incredible and, frankly, unsustainable. OU's got daylighted because of Gallogly's personality and style of management, but it is absolutely something facing many, many universities across the country. Private donations, for whatever type of construction, rarely pay for all of a project; only part of it. Bonds have to finance the majority.

Agree with all of this, and it's not unique to just state universities. Starting in 2026 we're going to see the start of a demographic cliff as the number of graduating HS seniors declines due to smaller cohort sizes. This is going to put pressure on a lot of universities who are already just barely making ends meet with current enrollment numbers.

[Pete]

Agree with all of this, and it's not unique to just state universities. Starting in 2026 we're going to see the start of a demographic cliff as the number of graduating HS seniors declines due to smaller cohort sizes. This is going to put pressure on a lot of universities who are already just barely making ends meet with current enrollment numbers.

OU's enrollment is 50% larger than when the baby boomers came out of HS (I was one of them), so these age group trends don't directly translate into smaller university classes.

The schools that will suffer are those that are smaller and regional. The big universities have massive resources to keep improving and the smaller schools do not. Most big state schools and especially the flagships just keep growing.

What's primarily changed is the ease of information flow; every single high school kid knows what a school has to offer both in terms of social life and academics. It's created incredible competition but the big schools can keep up while the small schools can not.

[Isaac C. Parker]

things that are not true at all? For 100 Alex.

https://www.fitchratings.com/researc...ollment%20base.

google can be your friend ..

For reference, the criteria for Fitch's ratings can be found here:

https://www.fitchratings.com/product...ng-definitions

Fitch Ratings publishes credit ratings that are forward-looking opinions on the relative ability of an entity or obligation to meet financial commitments. Issuer default ratings (IDRs) are assigned to corporations, sovereign entities, financial institutions such as banks, leasing companies and insurers, and public finance entities (local and regional governments). Issue level ratings are also assigned, often include an expectation of recovery and may be notched above or below the issuer level rating. Issue ratings are assigned to secured and unsecured debt securities, loans, preferred stock and other instruments, Structured finance ratings are issue ratings to securities backed by receivables or other financial assets that consider the obligations’ relative vulnerability to default.

The scale is AAA, AA, A, BBB, BB, B, CCC, CC, C, RD, and D. Fitch has rated OU's 2024AB GRBs as A+; unlike academic grades, an A+ rating by Fitch is not the highest bond rating.

Here are some ratings of bonds/IDRs from regional institutions (not all are 2024, but should be most recent):

- University of Oklahoma Health Sciences Center 2024A Rev Bonds - AA

- Oklahoma State University SER 2024 GRBs and IDR - AA-

- University of Texas System Series 2024B PUF Bonds - AAA

- Texas A&M University's Series 2024A RFS Bonds - AAA

- Texas Christian University Series 2024 Rev Bonds - AA-

- Louisiana State University IDR - AA-

- West Virginia University Improvement Revs - AA-

- New Mexico State University Revenue Bonds - A+

I couldn't find a Fitch rating for every university. However, there are multiple services rating entities ranging from state governments to universities to utilities. You can take a look at this Wikipedia page for historical ratings for state governments to get an idea of what "normal" ratings look like for public entities.

OU's rating by Fitch isn't bad, but it's below many peer institutions and isn't considered a good rating.

[BoulderSooner]

F
OU's rating by Fitch isn't bad, but it's below many peer institutions and isn't considered a good rating.

which is the point OU does NOT have a bad credit rating ... and i disagree they have a "good" rating they just don't have a great rating

[Isaac C. Parker]

which is the point OU does NOT have a bad credit rating ... and i disagree they have a "good" rating they just don't have a great rating

West Virginia University, which has received a lot of publicity for financial mismanagement in the past year, issued new debt with a Fitch rating of AA-. The A+ Fitch rating is not a good rating.

[Jersey Boss]

All I said about that was that since 2019 and Gallogly, OU has changed their development process.

I posted this because it shows that OU has a ton of debt still. And can't afford to issue bonds for the arena. So getting free private money is a way to get a new arena.

"Free private money". A classic line from grifters and con artists. How is it private if Norman is guaranteeing a 600M loan from the general fund? How is it free if Norman government is involved paying the interest with taxes collected outside of UNP?

[Rover]

You think long-term debt only affects the...short-term? Boren took out a ton of debt to make the campus modern and look very nice, and now that debt is starting to add up.

This is why OU can't just take out more bonds to pay for a new arena, so a public-private effort like this is their best chance for a new arena. Maybe only chance.

This is such a gross mischaracterization it is laughable. Quit the spin. Gallogly and the politicians backing him had no clue about running a university with an academic mission. The idiotic idea that you can run every institution like a for profit oil company shows how out of reality politics can get. There was so much spin on Boren that was rooted in 40 years of political and social hate it was incredible.

[Pete]

And beyond all this rhetoric about credit rating, all it means is that the better the grade, the lower the interest on the new debt.

We are talking about fractions of a percent, and not necessarily any limitation on the amount you can actually borrow.

[onthestrip]

And you will be stuck with an empty 100 acres, owned by the OU Foundation, getting no sales tax and minimal property tax, since it is empty land. Really benefits Norman.

Cutting off their own nose to spite their face.

Do you think that this land will sit completely empty for the next 25 years? And that it will only develop if an arena is built? Hard to make that argument imo. Look at the current UNP, it was empty for decades and has developed fairly rapidly, without an arena. Doesnt take much of a leap of faith to say the same can happen in this proposed TIF area.

City of Norman would be better served using resources in conjunction with ODOT to add on/off ramps at Rock Creek Rd rather than this arena deal. That way they get to keep the sales and ad valorem taxes that will eventually come.

[Jersey Boss]

Do you think that this land will sit completely empty for the next 25 years? And that it will only develop if an arena is built? Hard to make that argument imo. Look at the current UNP, it was empty for decades and has developed fairly rapidly, without an arena. Doesnt take much of a leap of faith to say the same can happen in this proposed TIF area.

City of Norman would be better served using resources in conjunction with ODOT to add on/off ramps at Rock Creek Rd rather than this arena deal. That way they get to keep the sales and ad valorem taxes that will eventually come.

Even the Hunden Partners report assumes that growth WILL happen in the TIF district without a new arena.

Sooner Investments makes a clear case that this area is prime real estate. University Town CenterNorman, OK - Sooner Investment

"UNIVERSITY TOWN CENTER is Oklahoma’s premier destinations for shopping, dining, entertainment, and lodging! Located off Interstate 35 in the vibrant University North Park district, University Town Center is a power center, developed around Legacy Park and the Legacy Park Trail. At the center of the development is the Legacy Park lake, which boasts impressive water features and fountains, as well as an amphitheater that hosts a concert series and and many other events. Legacy Park Trail will take pedestrians from the hotel district to Legacy Park, through the shopping center, and out of the development, through the city to Historic Downtown Norman and the University of Oklahoma."

[bison34]

Do you think that this land will sit completely empty for the next 25 years? And that it will only develop if an arena is built? Hard to make that argument imo. Look at the current UNP, it was empty for decades and has developed fairly rapidly, without an arena. Doesnt take much of a leap of faith to say the same can happen in this proposed TIF area.

City of Norman would be better served using resources in conjunction with ODOT to add on/off ramps at Rock Creek Rd rather than this arena deal. That way they get to keep the sales and ad valorem taxes that will eventually come.

No, of course not. But it will become a bunch of strip malls with more big-box or chain stores. Or a car dealership, like one of the lots over there. Lol.

It hasn't been developed for 15 years, so no one is in any hurry to develop there, except for OU.