Midtown

[no1cub17]

MidtownR has always had plans to building structured parking to the north of Fassler Hall.

which is too bad. Someone posted an article in another thread about how other cities like SLC are demolishing parking garage as city leaders have realized they're nothing but a waste - but in OKC we seem to be building them by the bushel. Ridiculous.

[no1cub17]

Why Free Parking Comes at a Price: http://mobile.nytimes.com/2010/08/15...html?referrer=

Absolutely. It's funny how places that actually charge something that approaches that market price for parking such as Florence, Kyoto, etc - don't seem to have any "parking shortages" at all. But let's keep subsidizing the gas-guzzlers - after all, that's what drives our state's economy!

[CS_Mike]

which is too bad. Someone posted an article in another thread about how other cities like SLC are demolishing parking garage as city leaders have realized they're nothing but a waste - but in OKC we seem to be building them by the bushel. Ridiculous.

"Building them by the bushel" is a bit melodramatic. The downtown area is nowhere close to having too much structured parking. However, we are still fairly saturated with surface lots and vacant land. There's no point in complaining about parking garages until the area is running low on infill properties. If the city reaches the point that developers need to start considering demolishing garages, I'd say we're doing pretty well at that point.

[bchris02]

Absolutely. It's funny how places that actually charge something that approaches that market price for parking such as Florence, Kyoto, etc - don't seem to have any "parking shortages" at all. But let's keep subsidizing the gas-guzzlers - after all, that's what drives our state's economy!

You can't compare large European or Asian cities that are densely populated with great mass transit to a heavily suburban, car-centric city with limited mass transit. Parking will be an issue here for the foreseeable future. More residential growth downtown as well as the streetcar should help alleviate it some but its still going to be an issue. The real trick is to integrate structured parking in with development so that it isn't a detriment to the urban fabric. OKC isn't very good at that yet but other cities do it and it works well. As CS_Mike says, OKC needs to really focus on eliminating surface lots and vacant land. Those are two things that completely kill urbanity, far moreso than even the worst designed garages.

Completely eliminating parking in downtown OKC would be the fastest way to kill progress.

[no1cub17]

You can't compare large European or Asian cities that are densely populated with great mass transit to a heavily suburban, car-centric city with limited mass transit. Parking will be an issue here for the foreseeable future. More residential growth downtown as well as the streetcar should help alleviate it some but its still going to be an issue. The real trick is to integrate structured parking in with development so that it isn't a detriment to the urban fabric. OKC isn't very good at that yet but other cities do it and it works well. As CS_Mike says, OKC needs to really focus on eliminating surface lots and vacant land. Those are two things that completely kill urbanity, far moreso than even the worst designed garages.

Completely eliminating parking in downtown OKC would be the fastest way to kill progress.

Not saying completely eliminate parking - that's extrapolating a bit. All I'm suggesting is that fine - let's build all the parking we want - parking garages even! But then let's charge the market price for that parking. If we find that the land we use for parking is more valuable for parking than building, then so be it! I'm just skeptical that that would be the case.

And why do we care whether there's parking or not? If we're trying to build a truly urban, walkable district, who the hell cares if there's parking? The people who'll want to come will come. And the people who don't want to pay $5 to park (or walk a few blocks or take an Uber) won't come. And there's nothing wrong with that at all. I just have the feeling that for everyone that actually lives in the care within easy walking/transit distance of these thriving urban neighborhoods - well the availability (or lackthereof) of parking won't affect our lives one bit - and in fact the lack of free parking should do nothing but help the merchants that it serves. Study after study has shown that metered/paid parking helps facilitate turnover which increases business' receipts. I understand that in our car-centric world, that parking has a place. I've paid a pretty penny to park in cities all over the country. Pretty sure I've never parked for free in Chicago, Philly, or New York.

[SouthOKC]

I agree with both sides of the parking topic. The example, of the Plaza area in Kansas City is perfect. I thought the same thing when visiting KC. The garages don't detract at all from the landscape and overall add to the area. I don't think this has been done on that level in OKC, yet. That includes MidtownR, even though they've done other really great things.

Why wouldn't we want everyone to be able to enjoy the pride of OKC, which is downtown? If it can be accomplished for both groups, then why not? Mass transit and alternative options for those in that group and strategically designed parking gargages, for those in the suburbs.

[dankrutka]

Just to clarify, I don't think anyone is saying there should be no parking, but that it should be responsive to the market, not mindlessly subsidized to excess.

[bchris02]

I just have the feeling that for everyone that actually lives in the care within easy walking/transit distance of these thriving urban neighborhoods - well the availability (or lackthereof) of parking won't affect our lives one bit - and in fact the lack of free parking should do nothing but help the merchants that it serves. Study after study has shown that metered/paid parking helps facilitate turnover which increases business' receipts. I understand that in our car-centric world, that parking has a place. I've paid a pretty penny to park in cities all over the country. Pretty sure I've never parked for free in Chicago, Philly, or New York.

Which is a relatively small percentage compared to those who drive in from the suburbs. I am not sure of the exact numbers, but I can say downtown OKC in 2015 relies on people from the suburbs driving in to support its businesses. There aren't enough people living in downtown OKC yet for it to be completely self-sufficient. That is why I think its important to accommodate both needs and the Plaza in Kansas City is a good example of how to do it well. Lower Bricktown is an example of how NOT to do it. Now I am not one to try to say that parking should be free, you definitely cannot compare the situation in OKC with large, established cities like Chicago, Philly, and New York.

[ljbab728]

Just to clarify, I don't think anyone is saying there should be no parking, but that it should be responsive to the market, not mindlessly subsidized to excess.

I think someone just said this.

And why do we care whether there's parking or not? If we're trying to build a truly urban, walkable district, who the hell cares if there's parking?

That same person was referencing New York City and there is a ton of parking in Manhattan.

[SouthOKC]

The area should be for everyone. Including those that want free parking. You don't have to charge $20+ to prove your city has made it. In fact in would say quit the opposite. A real move to show OKC is a forward thinking city. Would be finding a way to accommodate and attract, so much of its base that lives in the suburbs. I believe this can be done without giving up the urban identity we would all like to see.

Limit parking, so you can increase the amount of taxi cabs and uber drivers in the area? Public transit in OKC is nearly non exsitent.

Peronsally, I'm much more attracted to cities like San Diego, Kansas City, and Austin. Than Chicago and New York.

[ljbab728]

The area should be for everyone. Including those that want free parking. You don't have to charge $20+ to prove your city has made it. In fact in would say quit the opposite. A real move to show OKC is a forward thinking city. Would be finding a way to accommodate and attract, so much of its base that lives in the suburbs. I believe this can be done without giving up the urban identity we would all like to see.

Limit parking, so you can increase the amount of taxi cabs and uber drivers in the area? Public transit in OKC is nearly non exsitent.

Peronsally, I'm much more attracted to cities like San Diego, Kansas City, and Austin. Than Chicago and New York.

Of course nobody is saying that parking should be $20. That is ridiculous. Saying you should limit parking is equally ridiculous and even the cities you are attracted to don't limit parking other than normal regulations. There is absolutely free parking. You just have to walk a little more, which isn't a bad thing.

I don't live in the central city and never consider parking to be a deterrent to anything I want to do, even without using public transit.

[dankrutka]

It's also important to remember that light rail is about to run through MidTown in just a few years. Then people can drive, walk, or bike to any stop and get around the core. Building a bunch of free parking would be another reason not to take public transit. If OKC makes it easy to park anywhere for cheap or free then that could hurt/inhibit efforts to actually create an urban, walkable environment with successful transit.

[ljbab728]

It's also important to remember that light rail is about to run through MidTown in just a few years. Then people can drive, walk, or bike to any stop and get around the core. Building a bunch of free parking would be another reason not to take public transit. If OKC makes it easy to park anywhere for cheap or free then that could hurt/inhibit efforts to actually create an urban, walkable environment with successful transit.

You're absolutely right. If parking is free, of course I'll use it. If parking isn't free and if I have to walk a little, I'll still use it. If transit is available, so much the better.

[hoya]

Has anyone else noticed how parking is becoming a premium commodity in the area? If I had a say in any future MAPS project, I would include several, multi-story parking garages in the downtown/midtown area that are FREE! If anyone has ever been to The Plaza in Kansas City you know that there are several parking garages there and the parking is free, because they actually WANT you to come and spend money. My wife and I went by H & 8th on Friday night and there were thousands of people downtown. What an awesome sight! We were lucky enough to find a single parking spot on 8th and Robinson. So we walked through H8th and then went over to McNellies. And then as we were leaving McNellies we walked by Brown's Bakery where a church group had set up and was charging $20 to park! Now, I'm pretty much a Bible-thumper, but if there had been an atheist group, charging $5, I'd have given my money to them! $20?!? Are you kidding me?!? Will there ever be free parking in these areas? Or will it eventually turn into another Bricktown? Parking is the reason we don't even go to Bricktown anymore. But now, Midtown is starting to get full, as well.

Wait a minute... you parked downtown for free on a night with a major festival going on. But you are upset because someone was charging to park in a lot you didn't use?

I'm confused.

[hoya]

Ideally we will build just enough parking so that people from the suburbs can still make use of our downtown neighborhoods, but no more than absolutely necessary. Free parking is available in so much of this city that downtown is almost required to provide something like it just to be competitive. Right now, downtown has enough density and enough unique options that people are willing to either pay to park, or walk several blocks to park for free. The problem is that parking directly takes away from density -- the cool vibe that makes downtown special is lost if there's enough space between businesses for a bunch of cars to easily park.

I know people who refuse to go downtown because they can't park for free right in front of their destination. These are the same people who will circle around for 20 minutes in a parking lot looking to get a space just a little bit closer. People like that will not enjoy downtown, basically ever. We should just accept that. They aren't going downtown anyway, so we don't have to worry about pleasing them.

The two biggest solutions to needing more parking are mass transit and urban housing. If people live downtown, they don't have to drive downtown. Now for the most part, downtown apartment buildings have parking for residents, and that's fine. But that will eliminate the need for a lot of businesses to have much at all in the way of customer parking. Likewise when the streetcar goes in, travel around downtown will become a lot easier. Ideally, in 20 years, we'll have 50,000 people living downtown and the suburbs will be connected to it with light rail systems. So people all over the metro would be able to get to and around downtown without having to ever get in a car. We aren't there yet, obviously, but that should be the goal we build towards.

[soonerguru]

I think someone just said this.



That same person was referencing New York City and there is a ton of parking in Manhattan.

Wut?

[Anonymous.]

There was plenty of on-street parking on Friday night. I think a lot of the suburban people who do not frequent downtown - do not realize that metered parking in all of OKC is free for all after 6pm and on weekends.

I was on my way to H&8th around 8pm and saw several people feeding the meters. And then people paying $10 to park in an automated lot that had open, FREE on-street parking right next to it.


Parking is not as catastrophic of a problem as people make it out to be. The problem is people not willing to walk to their destination.

[bchris02]

Ideally we will build just enough parking so that people from the suburbs can still make use of our downtown neighborhoods, but no more than absolutely necessary. Free parking is available in so much of this city that downtown is almost required to provide something like it just to be competitive. Right now, downtown has enough density and enough unique options that people are willing to either pay to park, or walk several blocks to park for free. The problem is that parking directly takes away from density -- the cool vibe that makes downtown special is lost if there's enough space between businesses for a bunch of cars to easily park.

I know people who refuse to go downtown because they can't park for free right in front of their destination. These are the same people who will circle around for 20 minutes in a parking lot looking to get a space just a little bit closer. People like that will not enjoy downtown, basically ever. We should just accept that. They aren't going downtown anyway, so we don't have to worry about pleasing them.

The two biggest solutions to needing more parking are mass transit and urban housing. If people live downtown, they don't have to drive downtown. Now for the most part, downtown apartment buildings have parking for residents, and that's fine. But that will eliminate the need for a lot of businesses to have much at all in the way of customer parking. Likewise when the streetcar goes in, travel around downtown will become a lot easier. Ideally, in 20 years, we'll have 50,000 people living downtown and the suburbs will be connected to it with light rail systems. So people all over the metro would be able to get to and around downtown without having to ever get in a car. We aren't there yet, obviously, but that should be the goal we build towards.

So many great points here. I agree that mass transit and urban housing should be the goal with eventual light rail connecting the suburbs to downtown. One thing that's awesome about DFW is you can live in the suburbs and go downtown without having to worry about driving and parking. That is how it should be. Right now, too much of downtown OKC is geared towards parking, specifically the surface variety, in an attempt to please those who demand parking for free right in front of their destination (and will circle a parking lot for 20 minutes to avoid walking an extra 150 feet). As you said, it kills what makes downtown cool and special. Parking needs can be satisfied in ways that don't detract from the urban fabric. OKC just needs an innovative developer to do it.

[LocoAko]

There was plenty of on-street parking on Friday night. I think a lot of the suburban people who do not frequent downtown - do not realize that metered parking in all of OKC is free for all after 6pm and on weekends.

I was on my way to H&8th around 8pm and saw several people feeding the meters. And then people paying $10 to park in a automated lot that had open, FREE on-street parking right next to it.


Parking is not as catastrophic of a problem as people make it out to be. The problem is people not willing to walk to their destination.

Seriously. I parked all of four blocks away from H&8th with no trouble finding on-street parking (for free!). A total non-issue if people are willing to walk, as far as I've seen it.

On a better note, Midtown was unreal on Friday night. H&8th, Bleu Garten, and Fassler were all packed to the brim with the streets totally full of people... don't think I've ever seen a district in OKC so alive. It was really exciting to see.

[Anonymous.]

Yea it was fantastic. I think everyone was excited to finally have a weekend to be outside and do something during what is normally one of our "outdoor weather" months.

I ended up catching a couple bike races, strolling through H&8th and then closed down Bleu. Perfect night.

[heyerdahl]

It is easy to park almost everywhere in OKC.

That said, people don't choose to drive in from the suburbs because they are looking for an easy place to park. If they wanted an evening out with a good parking spot they could just stay in Yukon.

There are plenty of people who will avoid urban districts because they don't want to pay for parking or walk any distance. But check it out - business is booming and will continue to boom without catering to those people at all. If anything, the urban bars and restaurants are TOO crowded on some weekends, with long wait times- We still need more and more businesses to handle the crowds that are already coming in, not more parking.

[CS_Mike]

We still need more and more businesses to handle the crowds that are already coming in, not more parking.

The best way to entice more businesses is to bring in more residents to the area. To get more residents, you need more housing. New housing is going to need parking, especially in Midtown where there are a ton of smaller lots and small empty buildings that could offer little to no parking for residents if they were developed into housing. A few well-placed garages would make nearby infill properties more attractive for development since there would be an opportunity for new residents to lease covered parking spaces.

[Dubya61]

Perfect! Because in the unlikely event that we go to Bricktown, we'll walk - we won't need a parking spot.

Is that parking garage you so clamor for free to build and maintain? If so, then free parking would be great! But as long as parking garages cost money to build and maintain, they're a massive waste of money and an eyesore. The "parking shortage" in midtown, plaza district, deep deuce is all part of growing pains - so as a city we can either plan for it by providing alternatives (paid parking, more transit options), or burn millions of dollars for no reason whatsoever.

Now, if midtownR builds a parking garage and charges for parking at a rate that sustains the maintenance and upkeep of the garage - then great!

Another perspective that I think needs to be considered is that parking is never the best possible use for a plot. Structured parking, on the other hand, with mixed use included (or better yet, mixed use that includes parking considerations) will always be the best possible use for a plot.

[Easy180]

Had a great Saturday night with friends. Started out at Bleu Garten with an excellent shredded beef Bandido bowl. Then headed to Dust Bowl for one game. Then headed upstairs to Fassler Hall's patio and had an awesome sausage sampler (the lamb sausage is crazy good). Finished up the night at McNellies with a round of darts.

Great you can just pop in everywhere with no covers. I wish this kind of setup was around in my 20's but I would have been broke lol

[ljbab728]

Steve's update.

http://www.oklahoman.com/article/5427782

The Oklahoma City Council is set to decide Tuesday whether to annex Midtown to the downtown business improvement district, a move that would make Downtown Oklahoma City Inc. responsible for providing the area with marketing, street furnishings and maintenance of two roundabouts.