Dallas

[warreng88]

Also, $1.2 billion isn't nearly enough for what they are proposing.

Devon spent $750 million on their complex that featured one 50-story building. They are talking about two at 80 stories and two more at 60; so almost six times the number of floors for 50% more money. Doesn't add up.

Shell buildings with buildouts paid for by the lessee?

[Geographer]

The Dallas City Hall and surrounding plaza may be the worst complex I've ever experienced in terms of pedestrian friendliness and inviting to the public. There are barricades all around, the plaza is virtually devoid of any human life, and the design of the building makes you feel very intimidated. It does not scream "I am so proud to be a citizen of the City of Dallas".


Also, I live in D/FW and the traffic sucks...it's also quite dangerous. 2,500 deaths on Texas highways so far in 2014....love those highways!

[Bellaboo]

My sister and B-I-L live on the North fringe of Ft Worth. They are retired, and their rule of thumb for driving is after 9:00 am mornings and never between 3:00 pm and 7:00 pm. That's how they cope with it.

[adaniel]

The Dallas City Hall and surrounding plaza may be the worst complex I've ever experienced in terms of pedestrian friendliness and inviting to the public. There are barricades all around, the plaza is virtually devoid of any human life, and the design of the building makes you feel very intimidated. It does not scream "I am so proud to be a citizen of the City of Dallas".

So I take it you're not a fan of Brutalist Chic :-)

And yes, whoever says traffic in Dallas should be slapped into reality. Yesterday, I got stuck on the Dallas North Tollway...took me 20 minutes to go about 6 miles for no apparent reason like a wreck or construction. This is a Sunday afternoon btw. And for this convienence I was charged $3.00....YAY!

Its absolutely stunning to me that this is what some people want for OKC.

[Plutonic Panda]

So I take it you're not a fan of Brutalist Chic :-)

And yes, whoever says traffic in Dallas should be slapped into reality. Yesterday, I got stuck on the Dallas North Tollway...took me 20 minutes to go about 6 miles for no apparent reason like a wreck or construction. This is a Sunday afternoon btw. And for this convienence I was charged $3.00....YAY!

Its absolutely stunning to me that this is what some people want for OKC.

oh my god. I completely give up trying to explain what I mean. If you think Dallas has bad traffic, go to L.A. . . . .or better yet, drive to Houston. But if you want to see bad traffic, fly to L.A. I've been going there the past few months for a venture I'm looking into and THAT is bad traffic.

Funny, I just got back from Dallas and while I was there I asked a couple friends how traffic was lately in Dallas and they said nothing major. The obvious backups such as rush hour and construction areas, but it wasn't horrible. I have not even once experienced bad traffic on Sunday since I lived there in 2008 with the only exception in the past 6 years being once when construction started to ramp up on the 635 widening project.

Anyone saying Dallas has horrible traffic should be slapped into reality. It has rush hour traffic like any other city. I don't care if you built a 50 lane highway, traffic is going to back up in rush hour in any major city.

Also, did I say I wanted traffic like Dallas for OKC? I don't think so. I said I want roads and highways that are developed like they are in Dallas but kept into scale. Meaning we wouldn't need as wide as highways as they do, because their highways carry more cars, but flyover interchanges, service roads & Texas turnarounds, divided roads with medians, concrete roads, traffic lights that flash at night and give a red flash to the low traffic roads & yellow to low traffic roads etc....

[Plutonic Panda]

The Dallas City Hall and surrounding plaza may be the worst complex I've ever experienced in terms of pedestrian friendliness and inviting to the public. There are barricades all around, the plaza is virtually devoid of any human life, and the design of the building makes you feel very intimidated. It does not scream "I am so proud to be a citizen of the City of Dallas".


Also, I live in D/FW and the traffic sucks...it's also quite dangerous. 2,500 deaths on Texas highways so far in 2014....love those highways!

Well, I was a pedestrian and it has been friendly to me when I've gone to it. Granted I haven't gone to it much, but I like it. I don't think every little thing needs to make you scream "I am so proud to be a citizen of Dallas". There are plenty of things here in OKC that don't make me proud to be a citizen here, but it's the way it is.

I found the state highway system consisted of about 79,645 centerline miles. That equates to 31 deaths per mile in a state that the second biggest in the US in terms of land and population. A state, that has the largest highway network. No surprise there.

In New York in 2013, there was 1,109 fatal wrecks. There are 1,674 miles of interstate roads in New York. Now I'm not going to compare that because it doesn't include county and farm routes as the Texas figures did, but common sense will tell you, the number is still high.

Yes, I do "love those highways". I like cars. I prefer my personal car over a crowded bus or street car. The majority of countries that are insanely dense aren't choosing to be that way. It's because the people are poor and have no means of buying anything on a lot or being able to afford a car. Why are there thousands and thousands of motorcycles on the road in 3rd world countries instead of cars?

While there are more deaths related to cars vs. mass transit, that is to be expected. It's about sheer numbers because most people don't know how to drive. If you have 10 buses that move 1,000 people vs. 1,000 cars that move 1,000 people, obviously, there is going to be more wrecks and more people that are going to drive like idiots and end up taking their life or someone else's because of it.

Highways don't bring people, people bring highways. If you think otherwise, build a 10 lane in the middle of nowhere and see what happens. When I say middle of nowhere, I'm not talking about the fringe of a major booming city, I'm talking middle of Kansas or the Oklahoma Panhandle; wouldn't even have to go that far, but I am truly talking about the middle nowhere. For induced demand to be true, it has to have all these variables like adding one lane to an already crowded highway or replacing a 6 lane road that is extremely congested and no other highway nearby with a 6 lane highway in order for people to watch it get backed up and say 'INDUCED DEMAND!!!!'.

If we were to build an outer loop as I posted in the highway expansion thread and made it 5 lanes each way plus and HOV lane, it wouldn't get backed up for 30-50 years. Our crosstown hasn't even gotten backed up except at the sh!tty I-44 interchange that narrows down to 2 lanes. The Kilpatrick still hasn't overflowed with traffic and they added a lane. But in 5 or more years down the road when that area has grown tremendously and new tax dollars and retailers have entered because of the great infrastructure out there-while homes were there before the highway was there-then I'll expect you to resort to induced demand.

If the highways are such a detriment to growth, why exactly is Dallas, Houston, Austin, and SA growing like they are? Texas isn't exactly a model for mass transit, yet is the fastest growing economy in the US. So I don't think Texas needs the 'help' of mass transit to grow. The cities are adding new mass transit, because in any quality city, these sayings go: you should be able to live your life without a car, you should be able to have a car and have the option to live in suburbia with large six lane roads and wide highways, there should be light-rail and commuter/hsr serving the region. It's called options. Not every building is going to follow this 'pedestrian friendliness' crap that so many people on forum boards seem to be obsessed about. Not sure why that is an issue. I am just as comfortable and happy walking at Covell and Kelly in Edmond as I am walking in Downtown Dallas, OKC, or Campbell and Preston Road in Dallas etc. Happiness is a choice and a sidewalk deters you because it's next to an "unfriendly" six lane road, than you should have the option of living your life in an area like Deep Deuce or Uptown in Dallas.

[Links and sources:

List of Interstate Highways in New York - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

NYC DOT - Commissioner Polly Trottenberg

Statistical Summaries | New York State DMV

http://dmv.ny.gov/statistic/2013nyscrashsummary.pdf

Texas state highways - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Infrastructure: Transportation - Texas In Focus ]

[dankrutka]

I'm not sure who you're arguing with because you seem to be bringing up your own counterarguments ("If the highways are such a detriment to growth" - Did someone say that?) and then responding to them.

The very simple point that most of us are making is that driving in DFW is an awful experience when compared to driving in OKC. I live in DFW and I am in OKC all the time and there's not a comparison. Infrastructure in DFW can't keep up with the population growth. It's an absolute nightmare to drive around here. In fact, I literally make decisions about what to do with traffic in mind. My wife and I will want to go see friends and then decide "it's just not worth sitting parked on a highway to do it." This is something that I rarely ever have/had to do in OKC. OKC offers a driving experience where cars flow far better than they do in DFW.

DFW is a great city with many great things for people to experience. Driving is not one of them.

[Plutonic Panda]

The very simple point that most of us are making is that driving in DFW is an awful experience when compared to driving in OKC.

DFW is a great city with many great things for people to experience. Driving is not one of them.

I agree with that.

[Plutonic Panda]

[JoninATX]

From personal experience while living in Texas. Dallas as well as the metropolitan area including Fort Worth has heavy traffic do to all the population growth, but I found Houston and especially Austin a traffic nightmare. In the Dallas area I will sit in traffic for a few mins then it's all clear. However that's not the case in Austin. People here in Austin use the Tollroads that they built here, as well as the commuter rail but the influx of people here is insane. 100+ per day adds up very quickly on the roadways.

[JoninATX]

I flew out to OKC for a job interview for Hobby Lobby back in 2008, one of there HR said to me, "How was the traffic around here since it was morning rush hour" I looked at her and said what traffic? Lol it was a good joke. Though I do know OKC has traffic and probably a little worst since 2008, but I'm just thankful that when I do visit there from time to time it's not all crazy congested like Austin.

[Plutonic Panda]

I flew out to OKC for a job interview for Hobby Lobby back in 2008, one of there HR said to me, "How was the traffic around here since it was morning rush hour" I looked at her and said what traffic? Lol it was a good joke. Though I do know OKC has traffic and probably a little worst since 2008, but I'm just thankful that when I do visit there from time to time it's not all crazy congested like Austin.

The worst OKC has is I35 south of Downtown during rush hour it backs up and slows to around 15-40 MPH give or take for about 8 miles. Traffic on our highways is a breeze. It is starting to get worse, but I use that term very lightly.

As for DFW traffic, you nailed it on the head man. I wasn't trying to say they have low traffic, but compared to cities like Austin, Houston, Atlanta, Honolulu, Jersey, and L.A., I'd take traffic in Dallas any day. When I say Dallas has good flowing traffic, I mean that in relation to how big it is. There are a lot of cities with a smaller metro population(Austin. . . Honolulu) that have some of the worst traffic in the US.

I can clear 635 in 30-50 minutes during rush hour given the situation.... was on the 405 for two and a half hours going from New Port to West Hollywood, not fun. When I went through Austin on a Sunday afternoon, it was like rush hour times 3 here in OKC. That same day I went through Dallas with no problem except for one little snag at 35e and 30 next to downtown because of an accident. Ealier this fall I was on the Katy Freeway in Houston right from downtown and got caught in traffic. This was at around noon on a weekday. No wreck or anything from what I could tell. Had to go see a friend at the Katy Fountains Apartments right off of Mason RD and it took me almost an hour and a half. Bumper to bumper the whole way. Rarely experienced that length of congestion just due to traffic in Dallas outside of rush hour, construction, or a wreck.

[JoninATX]

Bleu Ciel luxury condo tower breaksground today in Dallas

By Steve Brown
Dec. 8th 2014

Developer Harwood International is starting construction this afternoon on the first Uptown condo tower to be built since the recession.

The 33-story Bleu Ciel residential high-rise will be built on North Harwood Street near the entrance to the Dallas North Tollway.

The luxury residential high-rise was designed by HDF LLC*and architect Wilmotte & Associes S.A. of Paris.

The project will include groundfloor retail space and has access to the Katy Trail.

The building is scheduled to open in late 2016 or early 2017.

http://bizbeatblog.dallasnews.com/20...hborhood.html/

[Plutonic Panda]

Perot will tap top talent for downtown Dallas skyscraper project | Dallas Morning News

[turnpup]

So the "green building" (as I always referred to it) is still the tallest? I know they've built a TON of stuff since I left there in mid-1993, but I guess it's just been not-as-tall stuff.

[Plutonic Panda]

Yeah most of everything new has been under 25 stories. The green building, BOA Building, is 72 stories. I think if Devon would have stuck to their original height, they would have rivaled the BOA Tower. Last week when I was down there, they it lit in red which was odd.

The smaller stuff is cool too though. They have some really pretty buildings out in the burbs. Uptown is on fire right now.

[turnpup]

We were talking about Dallas freeways in another thread (that got derailed). Does anybody remember Central Expressway between LBJ and downtown before it got widened/improved? It had these super-short on ramps that were metered (little stop lights that alternated red/green every few seconds---totally worthless) to supposedly help people merge. It was a nightmare. You pretty much had to close your eyes and hold your breath and hope somebody would let you in. Here's a link to a photos of what it used to look like. They don't do its treachery justice, though.

http://www.texasfreeway.com/dallas/h...ill_may_88.jpg

[turnpup]

Yeah most of everything new has been under 25 stories. The green building, BOA Building, is 72 stories. I think if Devon would have stuck to their original height, they would have rivaled the BOA Tower. Last week when I was down there, they it lit in red which was odd.

The smaller stuff is cool too though. They have some really pretty buildings out in the burbs. Uptown is on fire right now.

What's considered Uptown? I was there from 1988-1993. At that time, they were plowing down Section 8 neighborhoods near Deep Ellum to make new high-rise living and other stuff. They built a big Target store. Does this ring a bell? I haven't kept up with it very well in recent years. I know the area around the Crescent Hotel was a big up-and-coming place as well at that time.

[UrbanNebraska]

What's considered Uptown? I was there from 1988-1993. At that time, they were plowing down Section 8 neighborhoods near Deep Ellum to make new high-rise living and other stuff. They built a big Target store. Does this ring a bell? I haven't kept up with it very well in recent years. I know the area around the Crescent Hotel was a big up-and-coming place as well at that time.

In broad terms Uptown is the area between the CBD and Highland Park.

[turnpup]

In broad terms Uptown is the area between the CBD and Highland Park.

Thanks. That's pretty much the area that was about to explode when I lived there. I guess it did. It's still amazing to think of what Mockingbird Lane between University Blvd. and Greenville used to look like when I was at SMU versus what it looks like now. Is the old Dr. Pepper plant still there? It seems like they may have done something interesting with it...

[UrbanNebraska]

Thanks. That's pretty much the area that was about to explode when I lived there. I guess it did. It's still amazing to think of what Mockingbird Lane between University Blvd. and Greenville used to look like when I was at SMU versus what it looks like now. Is the old Dr. Pepper plant still there? It seems like they may have done something interesting with it...

I know nothing of an old Dr. Pepper plant, my Dallas experience doesn't go back all that far. My friend graduated from SMU a few years back so Highland Park/Uptown was the areas I would frequent when visiting. Deep Ellum is more my "vibe" though, funny now thats where she choose to get her latest apartment.

[turnpup]

The old Dr. Pepper plant was on the north side of Mockingbird, just east of 75 and before Greenville/Matilda. If memory serves correctly, it was a big, sprawling one- or two-story campus of buildings. I remember there being a clock somewhere on the facility that had the traditional 10-2-4 numbers highlighted. OK, I just found some photos of it. Looks like they bulldozed the whole thing, which is why you don't remember it!

https://www.flickr.com/photos/sdorn/...7594372338967/

[bluedogok]

There is a Kroger where the Dr. Pepper plant was located. They only kept a few elements of the original building.

[Bullbear]

Yeah most of everything new has been under 25 stories. The green building, BOA Building, is 72 stories. I think if Devon would have stuck to their original height, they would have rivaled the BOA Tower. Last week when I was down there, they it lit in red which was odd.

The smaller stuff is cool too though. They have some really pretty buildings out in the burbs. Uptown is on fire right now.

After upgrading the lighting on the BOA a year or so ago they have been playing with the colors a lot. Blue when Mavericks Win, Cand Cane stripes at Christmas and whatever color for whatever awareness day. its always odd to see it another color besides its Green.
the upgrades on Reunion tower lighting as well can be interesting as well and I think I like the traditional White lights on it..

[progressiveboy]

This article in the DMN shows that the suburbs are starting a "trend" of a more urban setting in traditional suburban locales.




Richardson is getting massive development next door to State Farm | Dallas Morning News