Whitewater Facility

[Snowman]

Do you know if it's planned to just be a general boathouse? General in that it's not dedicated to any one school or anything, but just to be there for the WWF?

It is not tied to any school and none of them have a team for that anyway (though OCU did add a sprint kayak team a couple years ago so they might do something similar when it opens). Though even with the Devon Boathouse's tie in to OCU it is not restricted to only their use, some of the memberships/passes include use of the facilities there and two of the rooms get rented out fairly often. A large portion of the first floor will be restaurant space and a equipment store so surely will be entirely public, most of the remainder is office space & locker rooms & bathrooms.

[_Cramer_]

Is that a parking structure in the background of this photo? That would be nice, especially when they have large events taking place. Parking has been a nightmare in the past.

[jn1780]

Is that a parking structure in the background of this photo? That would be nice, especially when they have large events taking place. Parking has been a nightmare in the past.

I think its just a placeholder.

[Just the facts]

If that is just a place holder then let me say cudos to whoever did it. It wasn't that long ago that any city produced rendering used single story house with garage doors facing the street as a place holder.

[warreng88]

I remember asking Steve about that in a chat and he said it would be for parking, a restaurant or two, office space, meeting space and locker rooms. I asked that in March of last year. I am not sure how much the plan has changed since then. He has hinted at Great Wolf Lodge or something like it to be built along the river, possibly on that site, but maybe somewhere else along the river. Maybe on the DT Airpark region?

[Snowman]

Is that a parking structure in the background of this photo? That would be nice, especially when they have large events taking place. Parking has been a nightmare in the past.

None of the plans so far has had structured parking, I think it is one of the couple times they have looked at where they would like to attract a hotel.

[Pete]

None of the plans so far has had structured parking, I think it is one of the couple times they have looked at where they would like to attract a hotel.

Right, that's a conceptual plan for a hotel. They would like to attract one somewhere done the line.

[okclee]

I think like someone has said, that would be the location for a Great Wolf Lodge. Not saying that Okc gets a GWL, just that the it's on the wishlist.

[warreng88]

Bids coming in between $37 and $45 million. Much higher than the expected $24.

OKC whitewater project bids come in high | NewsOK.com

[Pete]

^

How on earth do you mis-estimate by that much??

I'm sure this facility will get built by I worry other projects may be cut.

[warreng88]

^

How on earth do you mis-estimate by that much??

I'm sure this facility will get built by I worry other projects may be cut.

Specifically sidewalks and trails. I really think that $30 million Mick is earmarking for moving the power station needs to be partially used for this.

I am all about shopping local, but maybe we need to go outside of the locality (is that even a word?) to get a better bid. How much was the one in NC built for and what would that equate to in 2015 numbers?

[CuatrodeMayo]

I'm a little concerned that there were only 3 bids.

[shawnw]

Well, it's not like there's a whitewater facility like we are asking for in every state, right? I just figure it's a niche request...

[warreng88]

From Steve's chat this morning:

My first question out of the gate: What is your take on the whitewater rafting facility coming in over budget? Do you think the city will take bids from non-local companies to try to get the cost down? If the cost ends up being at the low end of the bids ($37 million) what does the city do? Maybe this could be a push to get the $30 million earmarked for moving the substation adjacent to the park to be used more wisely.

Bill Crum's (Steve's guest) response:

BILL: As far as whether taking bids from out of state, they had lots of interest but they only got these three. They are allowed to take bids from out of state. They only got these three. The mayor said today you make the White Water center all that it's supposed to be and you look at the other amenities planned and decide what to do. Basically, he said you face giving up other stuff to get the White Water center done.

STEVE: So Bill, does that mean the grandstands and wind screens could be trimmed down or eliminated?

BILL: Yes. People are already talking about spectators preferring to sit in the grass along the river instead of a hot grandstand. So I suspect the grandstands could end up dead. And they've already put off the wind screens pending completion of the white water center.

[PhiAlpha]

From Steve's chat this morning:

My first question out of the gate: What is your take on the whitewater rafting facility coming in over budget? Do you think the city will take bids from non-local companies to try to get the cost down? If the cost ends up being at the low end of the bids ($37 million) what does the city do? Maybe this could be a push to get the $30 million earmarked for moving the substation adjacent to the park to be used more wisely.

Bill Crum's (Steve's guest) response:

BILL: As far as whether taking bids from out of state, they had lots of interest but they only got these three. They are allowed to take bids from out of state. They only got these three. The mayor said today you make the White Water center all that it's supposed to be and you look at the other amenities planned and decide what to do. Basically, he said you face giving up other stuff to get the White Water center done.

STEVE: So Bill, does that mean the grandstands and wind screens could be trimmed down or eliminated?

BILL: Yes. People are already talking about spectators preferring to sit in the grass along the river instead of a hot grandstand. So I suspect the grandstands could end up dead. And they've already put off the wind screens pending completion of the white water center.

I would be fine with this.

[okclee]

From Steve's chat this morning:

My first question out of the gate: What is your take on the whitewater rafting facility coming in over budget? Do you think the city will take bids from non-local companies to try to get the cost down? If the cost ends up being at the low end of the bids ($37 million) what does the city do? Maybe this could be a push to get the $30 million earmarked for moving the substation adjacent to the park to be used more wisely.

Bill Crum's (Steve's guest) response:

BILL: As far as whether taking bids from out of state, they had lots of interest but they only got these three. They are allowed to take bids from out of state. They only got these three. The mayor said today you make the White Water center all that it's supposed to be and you look at the other amenities planned and decide what to do. Basically, he said you face giving up other stuff to get the White Water center done.

STEVE: So Bill, does that mean the grandstands and wind screens could be trimmed down or eliminated?

BILL: Yes. People are already talking about spectators preferring to sit in the grass along the river instead of a hot grandstand. So I suspect the grandstands could end up dead. And they've already put off the wind screens pending completion of the white water center.

I don't think that Steve wants you quoting his chat transcript.

[kevinpate]

I am confuzzled why it seems that this is an ongoing situation in the metro. Doesn't matter if you say sidewalks, or white water, or project 180, or other.

Why is it that people who estimate for a living appear to be not so great at what they are supposed to do?

[Just the facts]

I am confuzzled why it seems that this is an ongoing situation in the metro. Doesn't matter if you say sidewalks, or white water, or project 180, or other.

Why is it that people who estimate for a living appear to be not so great at what they are supposed to do?

It not just OKC. It seems common practice is to underestimate cost and overestimate revenue.

[LuccaBrasi]

I am confuzzled why it seems that this is an ongoing situation in the metro. Doesn't matter if you say sidewalks, or white water, or project 180, or other.

Why is it that people who estimate for a living appear to be not so great at what they are supposed to do?

Because it is often those that are doing the estimates are not as qualified to do them as some may think.

OKC is one of the few cities that hard bids every public project, regardless of scope and complexity. This is what can happen when that's the case. Hard bidding, or looking for the cheapest bid, is not always the best answer. Often, complicated projects such as this, need to be approached from an integrated project delivery methodology. That's when you can pre-qualify reputable builders, select a winner based on qualifications and past performance, and they collaborate throughout the process with the architects, engineers, and owner, all pulling on the same rope to achieve a successful design that is within budget. Jim Couch is against that methodology, as are some others. The idea has been recommended to them many times, but they refuse to listen. It is a misperception to think that the lowest bid is the best way to proceed on all projects. Had this project been procured through an integrated approach, or construction management at risk, there would not be such embarrassment. Projects like Whitewater and the Convention Center should never be hard bid. You will not find many, if any, large cities hard bidding a $250m convention center. Projects less complicated like the senior wellness centers and Expo Centers are probably fine to hard bid.

These bids are an embarrassment and clearly shows a lack of communication of those involved on this project. They will either have to come up the difference and move forward with the low bidder, or, reduce scope and redesign and reissue for bid. That just costs everyone involved time and money, not to mention creates an atmosphere of finger pointing as to whom is responsible for allowing the budget to double.

[Chicken In The Rough]

It not just OKC. It seems common practice is to underestimate cost and overestimate revenue.

If realistic costs and revenues were reported, half of these developments would not leaving the starting gate.

[Laramie]

Specifically sidewalks and trails. I really think that $30 million Mick is earmarking for moving the power station needs to be partially used for this.

I am all about shopping local, but maybe we need to go outside of the locality (is that even a word?) to get a better bid. How much was the one in NC built for and what would that equate to in 2015 numbers?

The $30 million is a part of the contingency fund; sales tax collection are slightly ahead of schedule. Let's get it done...

2006: The facility cost $38 million to build, and costs $6.8 million per year to operate.[2] The river channels were designed by three-time Olympian Scott Shipley.[3]

Here are some specs on the N.C. facility in Charlotte: The whitewater portion of the river has a total of 3,750 feet (1,140 m) of channel divided between two channels: the Olympic-standard slalom competition channel and the longer wilderness channel, which splits around an island at the top.

Source: U.S. National Whitewater Center - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Plutonic Panda]

Will ours be bigger or smaller than Charlottes?

[Snowman]

Will ours be bigger or smaller than Charlottes?

Kinda depends on what is considered. The competition channels lengths are pretty close, their recreation channel is a little longer. Their's has a larger area footprint (if we are only considering the whitewater park verses including the rowing parts of the district) but a lot of that extra space in their's is the islands of which people only use for trails and the pools at the top and bottom take up more space (I guess it does provide a more natural aesthetic on the recreation channel too though). Plus a lot of the non whitewater amenities in their whitewater park are things we already have in other parts of the Boathouse district.

[OKCisOK4me]

my aunt read about this in the paper the other day and I had to still explain to her that it's not another White Water theme park... People know about this but they don't know...

[OKVision4U]

From Steve's chat this morning:

My first question out of the gate: What is your take on the whitewater rafting facility coming in over budget? Do you think the city will take bids from non-local companies to try to get the cost down? If the cost ends up being at the low end of the bids ($37 million) what does the city do? Maybe this could be a push to get the $30 million earmarked for moving the substation adjacent to the park to be used more wisely.

Bill Crum's (Steve's guest) response:

BILL: As far as whether taking bids from out of state, they had lots of interest but they only got these three. They are allowed to take bids from out of state. They only got these three. The mayor said today you make the White Water center all that it's supposed to be and you look at the other amenities planned and decide what to do. Basically, he said you face giving up other stuff to get the White Water center done.

STEVE: So Bill, does that mean the grandstands and wind screens could be trimmed down or eliminated?

BILL: Yes. People are already talking about spectators preferring to sit in the grass along the river instead of a hot grandstand. So I suspect the grandstands could end up dead. And they've already put off the wind screens pending completion of the white water center.

Bill / People.... This is what happens when we "Okie Down" a project. Just becuase they sell "cammo" lawn chairs in Bass Pro does not mean I want to use them at a US Rowing Event. Does my grandmother have to sit on the slippery grassy slope too ???

This project MUST have structure. The Grandstand provides that. This is not All Sports Stadium with a grass , red dirt hill. Who is the dumb okie that is suggesting this ??? Please.... The problem is not the the cost of this project, the problem is the dumb okie that always under estimates these things.

Do NOT Okie Down another MAPS project. This is the "why" we have MAPS in the first place. To take projects ( Out of Committee ) and be successful. The Grandstands provide a level of "completion" to the river complex. The south side of the river needs just as much "attention" as the north side. I'm not saying have any boathouses, I'm just saying it needs to have the same level of professional attention to detail as the North side. ..a slippery grassy slope just lets the south wind blow grass and dirt in your face when you are watching these events.

Mayor, don't let this happen. Finish it w/ the same detail. Let's think bigger than a few people sitting in a cammo chair.