OKC Police & Fire needs

[iron76hd]

As to the second, I did not realize they were at the mercy of the City Manager. However, I see their responsiblity differently. Were I the Chief, I would consider my primary responsibility to be to my employees, and I would buck the city manager as often as I thought I should. And, I would expect a good city manager to understand why I was doing so, have a reasonable explanation for why he was vetoing any of my requests, and make every attempt to solve the problems that vetoing created. As I've said, if increasing manpower is an impossibility based on current revenues, then I'd look for ways to decrease demand on those people.

I know for a fact both Chief's are between "a rock and a hard place". In a perfect world a reasonable city manager would never let this happen. When that city manager and mayor together start acting unreasonable.

Decreasing the demand is an easy pill for me to swallow. I've said that along time ago. Many officers are doing jobs that civilian's used to do. Those positions were cut year after year..that's frustrating also. Watching officers that could be answering calls do civilian jobs.

Then you have CALEA standards that have been implemented over the last couple of years. That also demanded more specialized units to be formed. That's another discussion.

Then we have units that were the counsel's pet projects like Nuisance Abatement. That required 3-5 officers and a secretary to form yet another specialized unit.

We could go on and on. But you get the point.

[betts]

I understand and appreciate your response. I too am in a profession where one sometimes thinks one has a personal responsbility to be superman or superwoman. But, one person can only do so much, and at some point in time you have to do what is right not only for others, but also for yourself. If our police and fire departments are understaffed, then ultimately the people they serve are responsible, by electing representatives who makes those choices. Perhaps cutting services is the only way to call attention to the problem, as difficult a decision as that may be.

[andy157]

Thanks for clarifiying andy. if you call in someone on a regular day off though, is it a concern he or she mayl be at less than optimal pace? I ask because it seems like bringing in a scheduled off person, given the 24 hour shifts pulled, makes for so no great conditions, and y'all gots to ahve each others backs in major ways when bells are sounding.

Not arguing at all, just trying to get a bit more edumacated, and perhaps others may as well. Then again, it wouldn't surprise me terribly to ultimately figure out most folks are further along the curve than me. But maybe some others out there who are a tad less willing to say 'I dunno, so please tell."
Me, I'm too used to it to fret much over showing my ignorance when it is appropriate.

Could it be a concern, sure, but it would also depend on how long they have been off prior to being called back. In OKC they work under a 3 shift system (AKA a 3 Platoon system). Each of the 3 shifts has a designation. The"A" shift is the "RED" shift, the "B" the "BLUE, and the "C" is the "GREEN".

Each shift works a rotating "TOUR" which consist of 3 shifts (days) of 24 hours each, with 24 hours off between shifts, followed by 4 days off. W-O-W-O-W-O-O-O-O / W-O-W-O-W-O-O-O-O / W-O-W-O-W-O-O-O-O. That constitutes a 9 shift, 216 hour, 27 day work cycle, Each year has 13.5, 27 day work cycles which equals 122 days, at 24 hours each, or 2928 hours. Pretty simple.

Since there are some that want to make such a huge issue concerning the cost of the Firefighters overtime , here's how that works. 12 hours of the 216, or you could say 162 hours of the 2928 are considered Overtime hours. That leaves you with 2766 hours of straight time, for which they are paid for 2080 of those. The City considers the 2080 hours to be an annual salary which is meant to compensate you for the 2766 hours. Hope that clears things up for you.

[iron76hd]

Perhaps cutting services is the only way to call attention to the problem, as difficult a decision as that may be.

Betts. I wished you were wrong, but I think you hit it right on the nose. I have a feeling that's the Chief's next decision. I'm glad it's on he has to make it and not I.

I'll just support whatever he says. I know it won't be his best hour for sure. Many citizens depend on those units. Those units are of great benefit to many of our citizens, but we will see.

[LakeEffect]

Since there are some that want to make such a huge issue concerning the cost of the Firefighters overtime , here's how that works. 12 hours of the 216, or you could say 162 hours of the 2928 are considered Overtime hours. That leaves you with 2766 hours of straight time, for which they are paid for 2080 of those. The City considers the 2080 hours to be an annual salary which is meant to compensate you for the 2766 hours. Hope that clears things up for you.

How much of the 2766 is spent sleeping overnight and relaxing after normal day time operations (training, cleaning, etc.)? Throw in a comparison for stations in rural vs. urban areas for good measure.

[andy157]

Betts. I wished you were wrong, but I think you hit it right on the nose. I have a feeling that's the Chief's next decision. I'm glad it's on he has to make it and not I.

I'll just support whatever he says. I know it won't be his best hour for sure. Many citizens depend on those units. Those units are of great benefit to many of our citizens, but we will see.

Seems you were right by telling betts she hit it right on the nose. I just received a phone call from a very reliable source telling me that the City manager has directed the Fire Chief to cut 2% from his budget. The Union has been told by the Chief he plans to cut 25 to 30 Firefighter positions in order to achive the directive given to him by the City Manager.

[andy157]

How much of the 2766 is spent sleeping overnight and relaxing after normal day time operations (training, cleaning, etc.)? Throw in a comparison for stations in rural vs. urban areas for good measure.

Thats a very good question. I wish I could give you the answere. A lot would depend on the station. As you eluded to, generaly a Firefighter at a rural station will get more sleep than those at an urban station. Unless it happens to be grass season, then I would venture to say the opposit would be the case. I'm curious though why are you only cncerned with 2766 hours, why not the 2928?

[Mikemarsh51]

Cafeboeuf, what exactly does that matter. We are at our worksite, unable to leave. You are working. It sounds like you would like to pay us for each call. Are you thinking maybe $25.00 for a medical call and maybe $45.00 for responding to a Motor vehicle accident. What would you pay for us to repond to a multi alarm fire? Would there be a bonus for saving the property next door? Would you penalize us if we couldnt save any of the property?

I don't know what you are getting at with your question! To make it even more clear, we work 1/3 of the time. 3 shifts, some one is always on duty. Compare that to regular working people who work less than 1/4 of the time.

The funny thing or insulting if you take it that way is my check says I get paid for 40 hours per week. If I work Monday-Wednesday-Friday I actually work 72 hours that week. Check still says 40 hours. And just to let you know I get woken up in the middle of the night about 1/2 the time. Last shift it was at 0300 to help a morbidly obese lady who had slipped out of her chair and couldnt get herself back up, that is called a "Personal assistance call". Not to mention that she had crapped herself while waiting. That is just a nice little bonus we get.

[dismayed]

I think that this is a dangerous game for the unions to start playing. I am surprised that no MAPs supporter has fired back with an equally draconian response, such as proposing a state initiative petition stating that police and fire budgets for cities of 550k in population or greater may only be increased if so voted by 2/3 majority of the people.

If I remember correctly the unions tried this with MAPs for Kids as well. How'd that work out for them?

[betts]

The funny thing or insulting if you take it that way is my check says I get paid for 40 hours per week. If I work Monday-Wednesday-Friday I actually work 72 hours that week. Check still says 40 hours. And just to let you know I get woken up in the middle of the night about 1/2 the time. Last shift it was at 0300 to help a morbidly obese lady who had slipped out of her chair and couldnt get herself back up, that is called a "Personal assistance call". Not to mention that she had crapped herself while waiting. That is just a nice little bonus we get.

Mike, I'm in the middle of my unpaid 48 hour call. I get to take call from home, but I can get called in at any time, and I certainly can't go anywhere very far from home. I'm on salary, you see, so if I work through my lunch hour, it's a freebie. If I take work home, I don't get paid extra either. If my work isn't done at 5, and I have to stay until 7, it's a freebie also. There are a lot of people in different jobs who work more than 40 hours, and some of us are unpaid for anything over 40 hours as well. If someone is sick and I get called in to take their place, I don't get overtime, I get comp time, but I can only use it if I'm not needed at work. We all tend to get tunnel vision and think we're the only ones being put upon. On the other hand, there are probably a lot of out of work people who would be thrilled to have either of our jobs, no matter how bad the hours.

[betts]

I think that this is a dangerous game for the unions to start playing. I am surprised that no MAPs supporter has fired back with an equally draconian response, such as proposing a state initiative petition stating that police and fire budgets for cities of 550k in population or greater may only be increased if so voted by 2/3 majority of the people.

If I remember correctly the unions tried this with MAPs for Kids as well. How'd that work out for them?

If it was tried with MAPS for Kids, then the argument that the unions are going to try and keep MAPS 3 from passing, because it's encompasses luxury items and/or things that will increase manpower requirements falls rather flat.

[andy157]

Dismayed and betts, Let me set the record straight regarding MAPS 2 or as it's better known MAPS for KIDS and the role the IAFF Local Union #157 and the 900 + OKC Firefighters it represents played in that election. For starters, the Union and its members contributed $25,000.00 to help fund the campaign. We also built and distributed the yard signs.

[andy157]

I think that this is a dangerous game for the unions to start playing. I am surprised that no MAPs supporter has fired back with an equally draconian response, such as proposing a state initiative petition stating that police and fire budgets for cities of 550k in population or greater may only be increased if so voted by 2/3 majority of the people.

If I remember correctly the unions tried this with MAPs for Kids as well. How'd that work out for them?

No need for a statewide initiative is there? Unless by chance Tulsa should happen to experience a huge growth in population.

[andy157]

Dismayed and betts, Let me set the record straight regarding MAPS 2 or as it's better known MAPS for KIDS and the role the IAFF Local Union #157 and the 900 + OKC Firefighters it represents played in that election. For starters, the Union and its members contributed $25,000.00 to help fund the campaign. We also built and distributed the yard signs.

I almost forgot the Union and its members contributed $10,000. and built the signs for the 2000 $340,000,000. G.O. Bond Election.

I don't remember the exact year, but sometime around 2003 or 04, maybe 05 There were 2 City swimming pools slated to be closed. One at N.W. 16th and Meridian, next to Sta. 24 the other at S.W. 66th and Byers, next to Sta. 16.

As fate would have it those pools remained open that summer because the Union and its members contributed $10,000. to fund the total operation cost to keep them open, so the kids would have a place to swim and play during that summer.

You would be surprised what we got in return for our efforts.

[zulu5bravo]

I understand and appreciate your response. I too am in a profession where one sometimes thinks one has a personal responsbility to be superman or superwoman. But, one person can only do so much, and at some point in time you have to do what is right not only for others, but also for yourself. If our police and fire departments are understaffed, then ultimately the people they serve are responsible, by electing representatives who makes those choices. Perhaps cutting services is the only way to call attention to the problem, as difficult a decision as that may be.

I too want to address this... Iron is right on the money with his response. When I was in patrol I didn't understand and see the big picture. In 2006, I knew I was an "Edward 5" car on the southside of Oklahoma City and responsible for the area between Santa Fe & Penn / SW 74th (I-240) the city limits south. I also knew that for weeks on end during this time I was the only car in that district. We had problems with thieves in the neighborhoods south of Westmoore High School. There were construction thieves in Westbury (way west) and approximately 154th and Western in Stone Meadows South.

During the course of the night, I would do my best to sneak into that area and patrol when I wasn't running call-to-call. I can assure you many nights I never made it to those areas requiring "extra patrol" as I was a slave to the radio. There was nobody else to answer those calls and I had to be responsible for my district and listening out for my sector partners for priority calls. I can assure you it was quite frustrating to hear the dayshift guys tell me there were numerous burglaries during my shift at night. It was frustrating as I never caught these guys. Never.

I'm talking numerous auto burglaries and thousands of dollars worth of construction material stolen. I mean whole palettes of stone, brick, drywall, etc. I KNEW these guys were just blatantly driving up in some big truck and taking this stuff because they knew I wouldn't be there or get there in time.

If you look on a map, you will see that Edward 5 is a very large district (google map it). Tons of houses and businesses. Apartment complexes on I-240 that line the highway... It was busy and I was alone many times.

I want to help these people and get these crooks but I couldn't. I felt like the whole department was inept and wanted to tell people about it. All I could say was "Sorry, I responded to your call as soon as dispatch sent it to me". The problem was dispatch "held" the call because none of the 9 cars were available to take the call.

If one officer from the district took someone to jail... that is easily at minimum an hour process. Now we're to eight officers handling calls during that time.

I wanted to tell the citizens to complain to the city counsel, but I knew we were in the process of having our manpower study done. I thought, this will come to light soon enough then everyone will know. My concern was if I jumped the gun and told a citizen about our "problem", I would be reprimanded as I'm sure there is something in our operations manual that states we don't discuss police internal matters with citizens.

So, we get our manpower study... it takes months for them to just sit down with us and review it. They then walk out of the meeting. No discussion.

So, I get fed up with being shorthanded and I move "inside" to investigations. I quickly learn it's the exact same problem inside as well. The difference is I'm not risking getting shot at. Since I came inside, we have lost three investigators in my office. We have lost our secretary and now we field calls as well. The phone rings constantly from people wanting to check the "status" of their cases. The problem is when I field 12 (I counted on Friday) calls a day, these aren't just 2 minute calls. These are 20 minute calls of explaining. I don't have time to do anything else (work my cases) because I'm fielding calls that a secretary could do.

We get over 500 reports a month in our office alone. We have 7 investigators. We each have 20-30 cases. Do the math... we can't get to all that work and many cases are put off as inactive. We just don't have enough people to deal with the volume.

That sucks for the citizen. It sucks to know that I can't do it all for them. I've been accused of "not caring" because I'm trying to explain this to someone as to the reason we're not working his or her case. I can guarantee I do care. I want to point to that police memorial out front and yell, "Don't tell me I don't care when I have friends names on that wall!"

I'm just tired of taking an ass chewing for the city. I don't do it anymore.

This is far from "retaliation". Listen to the city council meeting in it's entirety... you will hear the union guys ask the council to reconsider including city services with MAPS. That was the only thing they asked for.

Indeed, the private sector is feeling this economic crunch as well. Nobody is disputing that. Just when PD's productivity is cut, it's the victim of crimes that suffer.

I could be a slug and not care about my job. I could decide that I'm going to just "take my calls" and not do anything else. I can guarantee there are officers who feel that way. The difference is I didn't take this job to be reactive. The criminal knows I can't win when I'm reactive. I care about getting justice for victims of crime.

We just asked to be considered in the MAPS vote. Ultimately, it's up the the voters now. No matter what we say, if the voters want MAPS... it will pass.

Just understand the more infrastructure we get, the more "area" the PD will need to protect. We're already stretched thin as it is.

Personally, I think MAPS would fail, with or without the PD support. I just don't think people will vote for it. I'll be the first to admit I could be wrong. It's up to the voters.

[betts]

We shouldn't be lumpers:

Just found a comment from one member of the city council, so it is incorrect to say the problem is being ignored by the council, or that they're not willing to consider it.

Could Maps 3 Put Public Safety at Risk? | KSBI Thunder TV | News Sports Radar Weather Cams | Oklahoma City | News

[Skip Kelly] goes on to say that the Maps 3 plan and the public safety issues facing our city shouldn't be lumped together.

"I just think it's two different projects, two separate needs, two separate issues that should be addresses[sic] in the proper form," said Kelly."

"Kelly says he understands the issue and he promises it will be addressed."

Rember that this money will be collected slowly over 7 years, and at least one of the projects will not being completed for 10 years. It's not as if all of a sudden police will be required to staff a city park or bicycle paths. Remember as well, as has been mentioned multiple times in this thread and others, that anything that makes Oklahoma City a more attractive place in which to live increases property values, which increase property taxes which go to the city. More people come to Oklahoma City to recreate and shop if there's more to do here and our city has more leisure time options, which increases sales taxes, which directly benefit police and fire departments. You can't always have growth without growing pains, but, if we're patient and work together, improving our city can benefit all of us.

[andy157]

We shouldn't be lumpers:

Just found a comment from one member of the city council, so it is incorrect to say the problem is being ignored by the council, or that they're not willing to consider it.

Could Maps 3 Put Public Safety at Risk? | KSBI Thunder TV | News Sports Radar Weather Cams | Oklahoma City | News

[Skip Kelly] goes on to say that the Maps 3 plan and the public safety issues facing our city shouldn't be lumped together.

"I just think it's two different projects, two separate needs, two separate issues that should be addresses[sic] in the proper form," said Kelly."

"Kelly says he understands the issue and he promises it will be addressed."

Rember that this money will be collected slowly over 7 years, and at least one of the projects will not being completed for 10 years. It's not as if all of a sudden police will be required to staff a city park or bicycle paths. Remember as well, as has been mentioned multiple times in this thread and others, that anything that makes Oklahoma City a more attractive place in which to live increases property values, which increase property taxes which go to the city. More people come to Oklahoma City to recreate and shop if there's more to do here and our city has more leisure time options, which increases sales taxes, which directly benefit police and fire departments. You can't always have growth without growing pains, but, if we're patient and work together, improving our city can benefit all of us.

Betts I didn't notice a date anywhere. When were his comments made? Do you know?

[Patrick]

I think we just view our decision not to suppport MAPS3 differently. We don't oppose city growth. Quite the opposite. We, knowing the dangerously low staffing levels for employee's and citizens, could not in good conscience vote or support a TAX that didn't first address the Public Safety Staffing needs. People...NOT MONEY...

I do agree that it's not a bad idea to increase spending on public safety.......but, I just don't agree with your logic for not supporting MAPS 3. So, what if we do get public safety on the ballot? How would you feel if the line maintenance division launched an opposition effort against any increases in spending on public safety, because "in good conscience" they couldn't vote for any tax that "didn't first address line maintenance and water deliver needs?" I bet you'd cry foul. But, the line maintenence division is just as important to the city as the police and fire depts.

What if I launched an opposition effort against the state because I "in good conscience" couldn't vote in favor of any increases in state education funding until dangerously low staffing levels in the OK State Dept of Mental Health are dealt with?

That's it. We just decided not to support this MAPS at this TIME. What we had hoped when we were told the Mayor was going to put MAPS3 on a ballot right now is. He'd also explain the Manpower needs and add another ballot for an additional tax to raise the Money needed to add employee's to staff and support this city. He'd been able to use the same commercials run on MAPS3 to explain the City Services problems...WIN WIN..It's easy to me.

I wouldn't mind such an increase. But, let's look at it from the mayor's perspective. What do you think the general public would say about a tax increase during this economy? Just look at what they've said about Obama increasing taxes in this economy.

This is something that's been asked for with each contract...each year...and NO..NO...NO..NO is the same answer.

Your department isn't unique in this. All city depts are having budget issues.

No threats were made.

You guys have threatened to launch an opposition effort against MAPS 3 if you didn't get your needs met. By the union coming out and publicly saying they oppose MAPS 3 is an organized opposition effort.

It's a free country just like you've alluded to. I thankfully can vote either way I want. I don't need the Mayor or a Union to tell me what to do. Voting blind is what I think is a shame.

Right, you can vote either way you want, but that's not the same thing as launching an organized opposition effort.

[Patrick]

The Chief's from both departments have done the best they can to satisfy the needs of this city with the current employee's. I will say that I have no doubt his next option is to start cutting programs like DARE and PAL just to name a few. A decision no doubt that is not an easy one.

I don't think losing DARE would be a bad thing. I think most studies show it's not effective anyways.

I appreciate your comments. Officers do take it personally when they can't be there when citizens need them. I wish it were that easy. If it was they would just go to work and come home and never care as long as their paycheck was deposited. I think that's what makes the job so rewarding. To help one citizen and be there when they need someone...anyone..to comfort, help, protect or whatever. When you are the only available officer to respond to three priority calls (rapes, home invasions, murders etc). And several officers have to be called from across the city to help you take those calls. The time it will takes for them to get there is not acceptable. It gets frustrating. Your citizens don't know where the officer came from or had their been adequate staffing could have gotten to the call quicker and actually made a difference. In Police world 10 seconds can be the difference between you driving up on scene as the armed robber walks out or driving up and the robber already being a quarter a mile down the road.

Without adequate staffing everything breaks down. Do you think an officer will take the time to take fingerprints on a burglary if he hears other officers running to priority calls by himself. Or a dispatcher updating a call that a citizen is screaming for help and the call is being left unassigned? Flip the coin...If the officer can take the time to handle the call, fingerprint ...make an identification a few days later and that one call handled correctly could have prevented numerous other burglaries. That's as simple as I can put it.

I would easily answer between 15 to 25 calls for service alone in one shift. That was 6 years ago. I know it's only worse now. Many require two officers to handle safely, but you learn how to manage. It's not safe but if their isnt anyone else. You have to do what you have to do. Ever try to handle a gang fight in the street by yourself? You can feel pretty overwhelmed no matter your size. You handle 50 to 100 calls that shorthanded for a year and you'll wonder how you ever survived. I wish that was an exaggeration, but it's not. Or when your one block from a home invasion with four suspects and you pull up knowing you're help is coming from another division. It can make for an interesting call. You're sure not gonna let the citizen fin for himself while you wait for help. Your going...period. Like I said before, I was working with 9 officers for 300 plus square miles and so it's not unusual.

However, Have 4 officers drive up together and that same call and it's handled alot quicker and safer for all involved.

Let me tell you something that works against officers and fireman alike. There own "PRIDE". Asking for help isn't easy. But when you see enough of your buddies get injured on the job from trying to do to much with too little. You have to swallow your pride sometimes.

Maybe you are right. Maybe officers should explain to citizens on each call why it took them so long or how understaffed they are, but it doesn't seem professional. That's never seemed right. We can look at each other as officers and know what's really going on, but I never want the citizens to feel unprotected. Maybe that's our own fault.

But, your dept isn't the only dept with the problem. Who isn't short staffed right now? I'm the only doctor of my speciality providing service to the ERs of three different hospitals after hours (OU Presby, OU Childrens, and VA). We're definitely short staffed. There are many times I have 9-10 patients waiting for hours simply because I'm the only guy on service and our service is understaffed. I could say the same thing as you. I also take it personally when I can't be where my patients need me. And I have to answer to my patients all the time for the long wait. At least you have the luxury to call for backup. I sure don't. I've had patients wait for up to 12 hours because I was the only guy available. In the medical world 10 minutes can mean the difference between life and death, and 10-12 hours...well....that's just inexcusable, but that's the fact of the life I live. I can sit here and complain about my predicament, and how understaffed the system is. There's nothing wrong about that. But, what if I decided that we were going to have the OSMA oppose all attempts to increase spending on public safety until something is done about understaffing in OKC's hospitals? Maybe I should do just that. I bet you guys wouldn't be too happy about my efforts to oppose any effort by the city to increase funding in public safety. But, wouldn't I be in the same position as you, and doing exactly what you guys are doing?

Hmmmm....gives me an idea. Maybe I should start opposing funding increases in public safety because of the need for manpower in the medical community.

I say all this to say, don't think for a minute that you guys are the only ones with staffing issues. I think anyone could use their own staffing issues as an excuse why not to vote for MAPS 3.

[Patrick]

Could it be a concern, sure, but it would also depend on how long they have been off prior to being called back. In OKC they work under a 3 shift system (AKA a 3 Platoon system). Each of the 3 shifts has a designation. The"A" shift is the "RED" shift, the "B" the "BLUE, and the "C" is the "GREEN".

Each shift works a rotating "TOUR" which consist of 3 shifts (days) of 24 hours each, with 24 hours off between shifts, followed by 4 days off. W-O-W-O-W-O-O-O-O / W-O-W-O-W-O-O-O-O / W-O-W-O-W-O-O-O-O. That constitutes a 9 shift, 216 hour, 27 day work cycle, Each year has 13.5, 27 day work cycles which equals 122 days, at 24 hours each, or 2928 hours. Pretty simple.

Since there are some that want to make such a huge issue concerning the cost of the Firefighters overtime , here's how that works. 12 hours of the 216, or you could say 162 hours of the 2928 are considered Overtime hours. That leaves you with 2766 hours of straight time, for which they are paid for 2080 of those. The City considers the 2080 hours to be an annual salary which is meant to compensate you for the 2766 hours. Hope that clears things up for you.

Let's see, I work 80 hours a week, 4160 hours a year, and get compensated by the state of Oklahoma for 40 hours a week, 2080 hours a year. No overtime pay offered, but I still have to do the work. Sucks doesn't it. At least you guys get overtime pay. I think I'm going to oppose any increase in spending for public safety until I at least get compensated for the overtime I work.

[Patrick]

The funny thing or insulting if you take it that way is my check says I get paid for 40 hours per week. If I work Monday-Wednesday-Friday I actually work 72 hours that week. Check still says 40 hours. And just to let you know I get woken up in the middle of the night about 1/2 the time. Last shift it was at 0300 to help a morbidly obese lady who had slipped out of her chair and couldnt get herself back up, that is called a "Personal assistance call". Not to mention that she had crapped herself while waiting. That is just a nice little bonus we get.

Hmmm...welcome to the crowd. My check says I get paid for 40 hours, yet I worked 80+ hours last week. Check still says 40 hours. I get woken up in the middle of the night about 95% of the time and often times don't get any sleep during my 30 hour shifts at the hospital. And often times I have patients complain because they have a 5-15 hour wait in the ER for my services, all while I'm working my butt off. That is just a nice little bonus we get. Guess I have to oppose any increases in spending on public safety until increases in spending for medical care are passed.

[Patrick]

You would be surprised what we got in return for our efforts.

Hmmm.....I thought you did that out of the goodness of your hearts. Didn't realize you were expecting something in return. I always love people who do volunteer work and then expect something.

[Patrick]

I too want to address this... Iron is right on the money with his response. When I was in patrol I didn't understand and see the big picture. In 2006, I knew I was an "Edward 5" car on the southside of Oklahoma City and responsible for the area between Santa Fe & Penn / SW 74th (I-240) the city limits south. I also knew that for weeks on end during this time I was the only car in that district. We had problems with thieves in the neighborhoods south of Westmoore High School. There were construction thieves in Westbury (way west) and approximately 154th and Western in Stone Meadows South.

During the course of the night, I would do my best to sneak into that area and patrol when I wasn't running call-to-call. I can assure you many nights I never made it to those areas requiring "extra patrol" as I was a slave to the radio. There was nobody else to answer those calls and I had to be responsible for my district and listening out for my sector partners for priority calls. I can assure you it was quite frustrating to hear the dayshift guys tell me there were numerous burglaries during my shift at night. It was frustrating as I never caught these guys. Never.

I'm talking numerous auto burglaries and thousands of dollars worth of construction material stolen. I mean whole palettes of stone, brick, drywall, etc. I KNEW these guys were just blatantly driving up in some big truck and taking this stuff because they knew I wouldn't be there or get there in time.

If you look on a map, you will see that Edward 5 is a very large district (google map it). Tons of houses and businesses. Apartment complexes on I-240 that line the highway... It was busy and I was alone many times.

I want to help these people and get these crooks but I couldn't. I felt like the whole department was inept and wanted to tell people about it. All I could say was "Sorry, I responded to your call as soon as dispatch sent it to me". The problem was dispatch "held" the call because none of the 9 cars were available to take the call.

If one officer from the district took someone to jail... that is easily at minimum an hour process. Now we're to eight officers handling calls during that time.

I wanted to tell the citizens to complain to the city counsel, but I knew we were in the process of having our manpower study done. I thought, this will come to light soon enough then everyone will know. My concern was if I jumped the gun and told a citizen about our "problem", I would be reprimanded as I'm sure there is something in our operations manual that states we don't discuss police internal matters with citizens.

So, we get our manpower study... it takes months for them to just sit down with us and review it. They then walk out of the meeting. No discussion.

So, I get fed up with being shorthanded and I move "inside" to investigations. I quickly learn it's the exact same problem inside as well. The difference is I'm not risking getting shot at. Since I came inside, we have lost three investigators in my office. We have lost our secretary and now we field calls as well. The phone rings constantly from people wanting to check the "status" of their cases. The problem is when I field 12 (I counted on Friday) calls a day, these aren't just 2 minute calls. These are 20 minute calls of explaining. I don't have time to do anything else (work my cases) because I'm fielding calls that a secretary could do.

We get over 500 reports a month in our office alone. We have 7 investigators. We each have 20-30 cases. Do the math... we can't get to all that work and many cases are put off as inactive. We just don't have enough people to deal with the volume.

That sucks for the citizen. It sucks to know that I can't do it all for them. I've been accused of "not caring" because I'm trying to explain this to someone as to the reason we're not working his or her case. I can guarantee I do care. I want to point to that police memorial out front and yell, "Don't tell me I don't care when I have friends names on that wall!"

I'm just tired of taking an ass chewing for the city. I don't do it anymore.

This is far from "retaliation". Listen to the city council meeting in it's entirety... you will hear the union guys ask the council to reconsider including city services with MAPS. That was the only thing they asked for.

Indeed, the private sector is feeling this economic crunch as well. Nobody is disputing that. Just when PD's productivity is cut, it's the victim of crimes that suffer.

I could be a slug and not care about my job. I could decide that I'm going to just "take my calls" and not do anything else. I can guarantee there are officers who feel that way. The difference is I didn't take this job to be reactive. The criminal knows I can't win when I'm reactive. I care about getting justice for victims of crime.

We just asked to be considered in the MAPS vote. Ultimately, it's up the the voters now. No matter what we say, if the voters want MAPS... it will pass.

Just understand the more infrastructure we get, the more "area" the PD will need to protect. We're already stretched thin as it is.

Personally, I think MAPS would fail, with or without the PD support. I just don't think people will vote for it. I'll be the first to admit I could be wrong. It's up to the voters.

You act as if you're the only department dealing with these problems. As I've previously said, I'm the only guy in my speciality covering the ER's of 3 hospitals, getting paid for 40 hours, when I work 80 hours, understaffed, often times not being able to even begin to tackle some of the patients I wish I could help because I'm a slave to my pager and having to answer those calls because there is no one else available for backup. I ask my boss to increase our staff size, but the answer I get is that the state doesn't have the money, and in fact we're cutting staff in our department.

Here, I'll change your email around a little bit, lol! :

I'm talking numerous people who need my help, but yet can't get it.

If you look on a map, you'll see that the OU Health Sciences Center is a big complex. It's hundreds of patients we serve. It was busy and I was alone at all times.

I want to help these people and provide high quality medical care, but, my specialty in particular, was inept and I wanted to tell people about it. All I could say was "Sorry, I responded to you as soon as I was paged by the ER doc". The problem was the ER doc "held" the call because I wasn't available to take the call.

If I have one difficult patient... that is easily at minimum an hour process. Now we're to 1 doctor handling calls during that time.

I wanted to tell the patients to complain to state government. My concern was if I jumped the gun and told a patient about our "problem", I would be reprimanded as I'm sure there is something in our contract that states we don't discuss hospital internal matters with patients. We're in the midst of a response time study and the study shows our response time and patient waits are horrible. I think, now something will be done about it. But, no discussion.

So, I get fed up with being shorthanded and I move "inside" to work on the hospital ward. I quickly learn it's the exact same problem inside as well. The difference is I'm not risking getting hurt by some agitated patient in the ER, because most patients on the ward are under control. Since I came inside, we have lost three staff members in my department. We have lost 3 secretaries and now we field calls and schedule patients as well. The phone rings constantly from people wanting to make appointments and ask questions. The problem is when I field 12 (I counted on Friday) calls a day, these aren't just 2 minute calls. These are 20 minute calls of explaining. I don't have time to do anything else (work my patients) because I'm fielding calls that a secretary could do.

We get over 500 patients a month in our office alone. We have 4 resident physicians. We each have 20-30 patients a day. Do the math... we can't spend near the time with each patient as we should to do an adequate job.

That sucks for the patient. It sucks to know that I can't do it all for them. I've been accused of "not caring" because I'm trying to explain this to someone as to the reason we're not addressing all of his/her medical complaints. I can guarantee I do care.

I'm just tired of taking an ass chewing for the hospitals. I don't do it anymore.

This is far from "retaliation". More staff members. That was the only thing they asked for.

Indeed, everyone is feeling this economic crunch as well. Nobody is disputing that. Just when hospital's productivity is cut, it's the patient care that suffers.

I could be a slug and not care about my job. I could decide that I'm going to just "take house officer calls" and not do anything else. I can guarantee there are doctors who feel that way. The difference is I didn't take this job to be reactive. The disease knows I can't win when I'm reactive. I care about getting quality medical care for my patients.

I'm asking to be considered in state funding increases for public safety. Ultimately, it's up the the citizens now. No matterpublic safety... it will pass.

Just understand the more citizens we attract from a safer state, the more patients we'll have to serve. We're already stretched thin as it is.

Personally, I think requests for tax increases for public safety would fail, with or without the medical establishment's support. I just don't think people will vote for it. I'll be the first to admit I could be wrong. It's up to the voters

[andy157]

I don't think losing DARE would be a bad thing. I think most studies show it's not effective anyways.



But, your dept isn't the only dept with the problem. Who isn't short staffed right now? I'm the only doctor of my speciality providing service to the ERs of three different hospitals after hours (OU Presby, OU Childrens, and VA). We're definitely short staffed. There are many times I have 9-10 patients waiting for hours simply because I'm the only guy on service and our service is understaffed. I could say the same thing as you. I also take it personally when I can't be where my patients need me. And I have to answer to my patients all the time for the long wait. At least you have the luxury to call for backup. I sure don't. I've had patients wait for up to 12 hours because I was the only guy available. In the medical world 10 minutes can mean the difference between life and death, and 10-12 hours...well....that's just inexcusable, but that's the fact of the life I live. I can sit here and complain about my predicament, and how understaffed the system is. There's nothing wrong about that. But, what if I decided that we were going to have the OSMA oppose all attempts to increase spending on public safety until something is done about understaffing in OKC's hospitals? Maybe I should do just that. I bet you guys wouldn't be too happy about my efforts to oppose any effort by the city to increase funding in public safety. But, wouldn't I be in the same position as you, and doing exactly what you guys are doing?

Hmmmm....gives me an idea. Maybe I should start opposing funding increases in public safety because of the need for manpower in the medical community.

I say all this to say, don't think for a minute that you guys are the only ones with staffing issues. I think anyone could use their own staffing issues as an excuse why not to vote for MAPS 3.

Patrick, I'm sure you face similar staffing hardships. But let me ask, because I don't know. Are the staffing problems you face because there are fewer Doctors, and more patients, at the hospitals where you work?

Is it because there are the same number of Doctors but the number of patients has increased 25%? Is it possible that theres actually more Doctors today than there was 5 years ago, but the patient load has increased by 50%,75%, or more. I know you said your the only one on duty and can't call for backup. How often does that happen, once a month, once a week, every day for a couple of hours, or allday everyday? Just asking. I guess you could justify voting against MAPS because of your staffing issues like the Police and Fire have decided to do, of course unlike Police and Fire the City has no say concerning your issues.

[andy157]

Hmmm.....I thought you did that out of the goodness of your hearts. Didn't realize you were expecting something in return. I always love people who do volunteer work and then expect something.

Hmmm your Peace offering didn't last long. I guess you've decided nasty works better for you. Thats cool. Where did I say we expected to get something for our good deed, I don't think I did. But what we didn't expect was to have the City attempt to dismantle our benefits.