Ford Center improvements up for March 4 vote

[shunt]

The "family fun zone" should be renamed the "Marketers fun zone"

[brianinok]

STILL, no one has explained how this is a handout to the wealthy. The arena is currently owned by the city. After the improvements, it will still be owned by the city. The "handout to the wealthy" might be a nice slogan, but it is simply a lie. The "wealthy" are given NOTHING with this vote. Sure, we might give them advantageous lease terms (which will not be decided in this vote) on the Ford Center and practice facility. But, any city (including ours) would do the EXACT SAME THING to any large company that would bring increased attention to that city seeking to move there.

[Doug Loudenback]

Stern reminds me of a joke an uber orthodox friend of mine told me up in NYC last year, which goes like this:

Did you hear about the jewish pedophile?
he jumped out of the bushes and said "hey kid wanna buy some candy?"

This is outrageous stuff for any rational and non-disturbed person to say, shunt. Are you in league with the neo-Nazis, McVeigh, etc., or what. Your comment is astonishingly despicable, outrageous, and lower than that which could possibly be uttered by the human life form in its lowest and most despicable worm-like configuration.

[shunt]

advantageous lease terms

[shunt]

Sorry Doug, just repeating a joke an orthodox jew friend of mine told me. And the joke will make more sense when you see some stories coming out in the near future, discussing Stern and his gangster tactics..

[Doug Loudenback]

Shunt, you apparently liked your compatriot's (orthodox Jew, right) anti-Jewish remark well enough for you to remember it so to be able to repeat it here and to think that it was clever. It was beyond reproach, in my opinion, for you to even say it or think it.

[shunt]

look dude, forgive me for offending YOU....and for spending so much time with Jewish folks, and almost marrying one.....rather than reading about them in goddam left behind series books...that I felt I could share what the man said. Now go bow down to your joan peters book collection or whatever.....

shalom GOYbot

[Doug Loudenback]

Thanks for your take on the value of history, shunt. Understood and noted. That such things are not of value to you is fair enough, that's a matter of personal taste and/or interest. Present-day racism, however, I have less of a willingness to understand.

[solitude]

look dude, forgive me for offending YOU....and for spending so much time with Jewish folks, and almost marrying one.....rather than reading about them in goddam left behind series books...that I felt I could share what the man said. Now go bow down to your joan peters book collection or whatever.....

shalom GOYbot

Anybody that starts off with, "Look dude...." loses me. I found the remark in poor taste and worse is your attitude toward Doug. Joan Peters? GOY? It looks like you're playing it to the hilt. Doug is a valued and well-liked member here. With your grand total of 32 posts - I would be careful. Dude

[Doug Loudenback]

Who is Joan Peters? Now that this thread is totally trashed beyond redemption (unless a willing moderator will fix it and clean out the irrelevant-to-topic trash, mine included ... and so far that's not happened), I guess that I'd like to know ... although my interest is not sufficiently provoked to check it out on my own.

I certainly have no problem with or objection to shunt's or anyone's substantive differences about the Ford Center vote ... reasonable minds can and will differ about that ... and, I think, that was the original context of this thread.

I do confess, however, to having an almost uncontrollable intolerance (perhaps even beyond "almost") to being in the same room with those whose speech is racist. That's not something I can or will do. And, in a very true sense, this place is a "room."

Whether I have friends that are Jews (as I do), and whether I have friends of Blacks (as I do), and whether I have friends of Native Americans (as I do ... a wife, actually), or friends of any other racial and/or religious and/or ethnic group, even if I did not, I would not be willing to rub elbows with the racists. That pretty well sums up what I think about that, understanding that, in context, that marks me as a narrow minded person.

[betts]

It's clear one can have OKC trolls on an OKC forum, which is sad.

[CuatrodeMayo]

I don't think I have ever seen Doug's feathers so ruffled. Says a lot about the guy.

[Karried]

I don't think I have ever seen Doug's feathers so ruffled. Says a lot about the guy.

Well, it's understandable.

Racist and inappropriate racial comments/jokes are not recieved well on this board. That says a lot about our members.

I would like to take a moment to remind new users to read the terms and conditions of this board before posting further.

http://www.okctalk.com/rules.php

Should you have any questions, feel free to contact the Moderators and Administrators.

[Doug Loudenback]

I don't think I have ever seen Doug's feathers so ruffled. Says a lot about the guy.

Probably so, be that the good, the bad, or the ugly.

[Slivermoon]

I find it difficult to believe that any reasonable person in this day and age would attempt to win others to a specific position on any issue using tasteless racist humor.

I respect anyone's right to vote yes or no on the Ford Center temporary sales tax based the facts, but shunt is clearly out of line.

His attitude as displayed in his posts is disrespectful to this public forum, its participants and public morals. He is on a fast track that will serve only to alienate those he wishes to convince.

[Easy180]

Looks like someone stayed in and drank instead of going out

All of the talk about an advantageous lease is straight out of the Save Our Sonics textbooks...Pure speculation...Whole argument really hinges on this since we aren't building a new arena and only extending a current one cent tax for a year

The folks in Seattle and the welfare for billionaires folks wish there was more to it...Think it is disappointing to them that OKC isn't doing more than we are

Takes all of the excitement out of the situation for them

[solitude]

I agree with CuatrodeMayo. Doug's anger says a lot about who he is as a person. Righteous anger is a good thing and his expression of that anger was appropriate and healthy. I have a feeling Shunt is going to have some problems here at OKCTalk.

[andy157]

Just wanted to say that I agree with shunt 100% on this issue. I have written extensively about my opposition to this taxpayer giveaway in this thread.

And I agree with you 100%. It is a principal thing with me also , and I will also vote NO, and it will still pass.

[FritterGirl]

Up until this point, I've pretty much considered myself one of those "undecided" folk, and quite frankly go back and forth on the issue each and every day.

I don't have problems with improvements to the Ford Center itself, understanding that this will help attract more than just an NBA team. I am convinced it will help us continue on our track of getting bigger and more impressive concerts, as well as vie for other large sporting events such as the Big XII Bball tournament and NCAA Tourney rounds. In this capacity, it will keep us in the competitive mix, so to speak.

For the record, I asked the opinion of a good friend who worked as an Events Coordinator at the Ford Center for several years and knows the facility intimately. She believes the improvements will help tremendously in the areas I cited above.

Further, I am a "big picture" person, and honestly believe this is the FIRST step in realizing the much larger "Core to Shore" dream (especially IF an NBA team were to come here - and for the record I'd prefer the Hornets).

My biggest sticking point is the practice facility. I just don't see why IT, in particular, should be tax-payer funded, and would rather see that $20 million go towards making improvements to the Cox Center, realizing that eventually, it too will need to be replaced completely with a much larger facility (again, part of the Core to Shore initiative). It's those twenty million little sticking points that really keep me in the yellow zone.

That being said, thanks to SHUNT and his tactics regarding the issue, I'm starting to lean closer and closer to a "YES" vote!!

So good job, SHUNT! Your efforts have just pretty much landed a vote against you!

[betts]

I'd be a lot more inclinded to oppose the practice facility if we were handing it over to the Sonics' owners, even though I sincerely believe them moving the team here is a philanthropic gesture, being done more for the good of the city than the good of their pocketbook, NBA teams in smaller markets usually being poor moneymakers at best. But, the city will own the practice facility, and we will be able to use it for other things. Teams could use it to practice when they're here for the Big Twelve or NCAA tournaments, high school tournaments could be held there, basketball camps for children could be held there, community events could be held there. Whether we agree even with that or not, it's the price of doing business with the NBA, and we're getting off for far less than Seattle would have been if they wanted to keep their team, Orlando is, Cleveland was, etc (I could go on and on). Even New Orleans had agree to build a $20 million dollar practice facility for the Hornets, and the only reason they haven't broken ground is because they're worried the team's not staying. I believe voting yes is about telling the NBA we will support a team, about saying thank you to the Sonics owners for bringing a team here when they will be "happy to break even", about showing the rest of the sporting world that we are ready to join the other cities with professional teams club.

[metro]

Up until this point, I've pretty much considered myself one of those "undecided" folk, and quite frankly go back and forth on the issue each and every day.

I don't have problems with improvements to the Ford Center itself, understanding that this will help attract more than just an NBA team. I am convinced it will help us continue on our track of getting bigger and more impressive concerts, as well as vie for other large sporting events such as the Big XII Bball tournament and NCAA Tourney rounds. In this capacity, it will keep us in the competitive mix, so to speak.

For the record, I asked the opinion of a good friend who worked as an Events Coordinator at the Ford Center for several years and knows the facility intimately. She believes the improvements will help tremendously in the areas I cited above.

Further, I am a "big picture" person, and honestly believe this is the FIRST step in realizing the much larger "Core to Shore" dream (especially IF an NBA team were to come here - and for the record I'd prefer the Hornets).

My biggest sticking point is the practice facility. I just don't see why IT, in particular, should be tax-payer funded, and would rather see that $20 million go towards making improvements to the Cox Center, realizing that eventually, it too will need to be replaced completely with a much larger facility (again, part of the Core to Shore initiative). It's those twenty million little sticking points that really keep me in the yellow zone.

That being said, thanks to SHUNT and his tactics regarding the issue, I'm starting to lean closer and closer to a "YES" vote!!

So good job, SHUNT! Your efforts have just pretty much landed a vote against you!

Don't let the $20 million sway your vote too much. Think of the grand total approx $120 million + the $89 million we originally spent on it for a total of $209 million being a MUCH MUCH smaller amount than any other NBA market paid or is fixing to pay for a state of the art arena. OKC is in a great position to land the NBA and I'd hate to lose our only chance over a measely $20 million. Even if the Hornets were to move in a few years, they would definitely demand a $20 million practice facility and probably a lot nicer arena as well and want rights to profits off other events (see N.O, Seattle, and other markets). Having the Sonics is more philantrophic as someone said, the owners are going to make very minimal profit, if anything at all, and they aren't demanding much especially to make money off other events like most NBA teams do. At least in the Sonics situation, the city of OKC would own the arena and practice facility and make money off other events.

[solitude]

Don't let the $20 million sway your vote too much.... I'd hate to lose our only chance over a measely $20 million.

This is a problem with these huge figures. Since when is $20,000,000.00 "measly"? To put in perspective of our penny tax, that "measly" twenty million dollars is TWO BILLION PENNIES.

[andy157]

I'd be a lot more inclinded to oppose the practice facility if we were handing it over to the Sonics' owners, even though I sincerely believe them moving the team here is a philanthropic gesture, being done more for the good of the city than the good of their pocketbook, NBA teams in smaller markets usually being poor moneymakers at best. But, the city will own the practice facility, and we will be able to use it for other things. Teams could use it to practice when they're here for the Big Twelve or NCAA tournaments, high school tournaments could be held there, basketball camps for children could be held there, community events could be held there. Whether we agree even with that or not, it's the price of doing business with the NBA, and we're getting off for far less than Seattle would have been if they wanted to keep their team, Orlando is, Cleveland was, etc (I could go on and on). Even New Orleans had agree to build a $20 million dollar practice facility for the Hornets, and the only reason they haven't broken ground is because they're worried the team's not staying. I believe voting yes is about telling the NBA we will support a team, about saying thank you to the Sonics owners for bringing a team here when they will be "happy to break even", about showing the rest of the sporting world that we are ready to join the other cities with professional teams club.

Betts I don't believe you are correct when you say ,"and we will be able to use it for other things" referring to the practice facility. As I understand some of the details of this arrangment they could be separated into two parts. The first part deals with the general overall upgrades to the Ford Center, those indeed will be an overall benefit in one way or another to the City, and the citizens ,and/or out of town visitors attending whatever event may be going on. The second part deals entirely with the NBA mandated upgrades. Two upgrades that are mandated include the team locker room be enhanced on site at the FC, and a practice facility, both of which cannot be used by anyone except the NBA team, at any time, for any reason. Your are correct in that the City will own the buildings

[Doug Loudenback]

This is a problem with these huge figures. Since when is $20,000,000.00 "measly"? To put in perspective of our penny tax, that "measly" twenty million dollars is TWO BILLION PENNIES.

Yeah, and the number is even higher if measured in terms of mills ... anyone here old enough to know that term? Just kidding, but a "mill" back in WWII days may well be worth more than a penny is today ... I've not done the math.

As important as 20M dollars is ... and it is ... I'd note the following things that cross my mind about that:

(1) Funding of the practice facility will not occur without a contract by an NBA team to locate here by a certain date ... I don't remember it just now but it's fairly soon.

(2) To enter the NBA group of cities, at least as I understand it (which is based wholly on the Mayor's statements), a practice facility must be provided by a city and is a basic and fundamental requirement.

If that's true, and like it or not, it's part of the price to get through the NBA city door. Soooo ... it's a like it or lump it kind of thing. No city is forced to "like it or lump it", they are only required to say, "yes." If a city doesn't, it's no deal and there's nothing further to discuss.

(3) This is apparently a Stern/NBA driven requirement and not a Bennett driven one. Bennett would have the liberty of negotiating one or more contracts as he (and I'm using "he" as Bennett being the leader of his ownership group) sees fit.

(4) The March 4 vote does not determine the terms of lease, either to the Ford Center or practice facility. In the lease negotiations which would ensue, no requirement exists that the practice facility be provided to the NBA team without cost. The terms of lease both the Ford Center and to the Practice Facility would be open to negotiation.

Aside from the above, which I think are reasonably supported by either the ballot details or the Mayor's conversations we've been provided with "the NBA" (and guess who that would be), I'll throw in the following, merely guesses on my part ....

(5) The Mayor's conversations with the NBA (guess who) which led to the need for speed of Okc getting a decision made by March lead me to conclude that, most probably ...

.....(a) Given the timing of the NBA relocation committee's April vote, it was important that Okc "show its hand," its willingness to pay the price to join the NBA club of cities before that April vote occurred. In plain speech, was/is Okc willing to put its actions where its mouth was.

.....(b) I seriously doubt that Stern would have been willing to so assert himself with our Mayor unless ...

..........(1) Speed/timing really was/is important. The speed/timing matter is only important if the April vote for the Sonics to relocate to Okc is, also. Otherwise, it makes no sense. The proposition presented to the city council in late December and the Mayor's stated need for speed and without a good bit of detailed info in the hands of council members at that December meeting (causing a very reasonable council member, Pete White, to express his displeasure ... even though he voted aye to put the matter before a vote of the people). Soooo .... the April vote will not likely be a tentative vote to allow the relocation. While relocation will obviously depend in part on the pending litigation getting resolved, that's a question of "when" and not "if."

..........(2) David Stern would reasonably know that the Mayor's somewhat shallow (i.e., without good backup ala Councilman White's criticisms) would be seen (and fairly, I think) as not how "good business" should be normally conducted by a city or any business. More detail is normally needed and reasonably expected to be laid "on the table" than occurred at the December Council meeting, particularly given the magnitude of the matter presented.

..........(3) What this means is that David Stern was, effectively, asking our Mayor to stick out his neck and have his head chopped off either by (a) the Council or (b) the voters. Stern could not have been unaware of the political risk that he had engaged our Mayor to take.


.....(c) I seriously doubt that our Mayor would have been/be willing to place his neck in the noose unless ..

..........(1) He had a solid expectation of getting something really magnificent in return, perhaps not a promise but something pretty close to one, for an almost certain "payoff" for the city if he did take the risk.

..........(2) That "payoff" would almost certainly be an affirmative vote in April 2008 by the NBA relocation committee for the Sonics to relocate to Oklahoma City.

All of this is intellectual conjecture on my part with no "inside" information of any sort. But, doesn't it make sense?

The Mayor has clearly placed himself very much on the line, much like Mayor Ron Norick did several but not that many years earlier. But, in his day, Mayor Norick had no promises or quasi-promises from anyone ... he just acted as he did because his vision for the city "made him do it." While I think that our Mayor has a vision as well, and a good one, I very strongly suspect that Mayor Cornett has in his pocket more than merely his vision. I think that his pocket contains a commitment by Commissioner Stern.

At least, that's Doug Dawgz take on the above, and, as I said, just as a guess.

[andy157]

For those who want to help with the campaign - I work at the Chamber and we are gearing up for a big effort and we are going to need the help of everyone on this board who is committed to keeping OKC's momentum going. We will begin contacting/coordinating volunteer activities around mid month, so keep the faith - you don't see us yet but there is prep work in motion. Feel free to email me your name and contact info and we will be back with you in just a few days!

ChamberCyn, I'm curious as to how much of the 75 million dollars the Citizens of OKC recently assessed themselves, and gave to the Chamber to promote economic development, will fund this campaign.