REHCO / Former Downtown Ford site

[G.Walker]

Please don't let this be site of new convention center...

[ZYX2]

I deleted this post, was accidentally posted here...

[Kerry]

Please don't let this be site of new convention center...

It isn't going to be. I suspect we will see development plans pretty soon. Hall and Co. wouldn't go through the expense of clearing the land unless they were planning to build something on it.

[Larry OKC]

But isn't that why they installed the "canal extension" through the parking lot??? I know it is laughable to call it that, but they did anyway.

[Spartan]

Yeah, it would probably have been better to let the weeds grow there. Or I can't remember, was that where Nordstoms or Niemans was going? Maybe the Ritz Carlton. It is awful having it there and taking all the development property out of play because there are no more sites to do anything on. No one ever goes to Bass Pro and it doesn't create any traffic for Bricktown or any sales tax for the city. Just terrible.

Obviously Bass Pro Shops and the Bricktown downtown district was a match made in heaven.

[Larry OKC]

Yeah, it would probably have been better to let the weeds grow there. Or I can't remember, was that where Nordstoms or Niemans was going? Maybe the Ritz Carlton. It is awful having it there and taking all the development property out of play because there are no more sites to do anything on. No one ever goes to Bass Pro and it doesn't create any traffic for Bricktown or any sales tax for the city. Just terrible.

Well, they do create some sales tax, but the last article I read, not nearly the amount in the City's projections (this was a few years ago), they were off by millions if I recall correctly. That is what was terrible (besides the precedent set that allows the Council to change their "intent" at any time, for what ever purpose they decide). May come into play in the upcoming elections.

[rcjunkie]

Well, they do create some sales tax, but the last article I read, not nearly the amount in the City's projections (this was a few years ago), they were off by millions if I recall correctly. That is what was terrible (besides the precedent set that allows the Council to change their "intent" at any time, for what ever purpose they decide). May come into play in the upcoming elections.

Only by the Nay Sayers that don't want to see this Great City prosper!!

[Kerry]

I went to Borders and picked-up a small book I had my eye on for awhile - 101 Things I Learned in Architecture School. I am only up to Thing 50 but I can already see all the errors made in Lower Bricktown and Sandridge Commons. Even thought the book is small the author did a good job of explaining the difference between urban and suburban design, and he did it in just 2 sentences. If you have an interest in the subject I suggest you pick it up. I think regular price was around $12 but if you go to one Borders that are closing you can get 20% off. Hopefully the same mistakes will not be repeated at the Ford Dealer site or anywhere else downtown for that matter.

[Rover]

Obviously Bass Pro Shops and the Bricktown downtown district was a match made in heaven.

Obviously not a match made in heaven, but also not the devil it is continuously portrayed on here. There is never any acknowledgment that at the time the deal was made there was precious little value for the property on the fringes of fledgling bricktown and that there was a need to kick start some retail and to get traffic flowing to the area. A string of failed cheap bars was not going to create a permanent area. The city did what it had to do. Sometimes your legitimate choices limit your decisions. It is easy to be righteous when dealing with theory and hypotheticals but sometimes progress is started by being pragmatic. Being theoretically perfect and never acting is just as bad as acting but in a non-perfect manner. Would I prefer a 10 story luxury condo anchoring lower btown? Obviously. But those things were not options. Let's just get over it and do the best we can now.

[metro]

Rover, we don't know what options were available at that time, the city was hellbent that Bass Pro was "THE" retailer to persue. I imagine we could have got a more urban minded company here if we gave them $19 million in incentives, in 1996 dollars.

[Rover]

Rover, we don't know what options were available at that time, the city was hellbent that Bass Pro was "THE" retailer to persue. I imagine we could have got a more urban minded company here if we gave them $19 million in incentives, in 1996 dollars.

I certainly am not to defend the deal, but OKC wasn't the only city that felt that way at the time. It was a "hot" retailer and considered a destination retailer...and there aren't that many of those. OKC didn't have people beating down their door to locate here at the time...particularly bigger brand retailers.

I should stop as I really do not hold Bass Pro as an ideal in any sense. Just saying that sometimes a flawed action is better than no action at all and Bass Pro wouldn't be the first public or private venture that didn't fulfill everyone's hopes...including the hopes of the people who made the decisions.

[CChandler]

Well - here you go

Deferral to the February 25, 2010 meeting was requested on the following items:
18. (PUD-1403) Application by Westpoint Developers, L.L.C., to rezone 11448 SW 44th Street from

the AA Agricultural District to the PUD-1403 Planned Unit Development District. Ward 3.

http://www.okc.gov/agendapub/view.as...&fileid=828941

I know this is rehashing something brought up several pages back, but I live just a mile from this area they're wanting to rezone. I've driven by several times, trying to figure out why in the world they'd build an apt complex/retail at this location. It is VERY rural, with an abandoned home north of sw 44th in the trees, one well-kept 1950's home with land SW of 44th and Morgan and farm land on the SE side. I see absolutely no need to destroy the trees/farmland that are already there. Even a convenience store makes absolutely no sense in that location. If commuters are traveling from Mustang up Morgan Rd, there's 2 gas stations at SW15th and Morgan.
I'm really hoping it's denied, there's much better locations in the area- let the farmland be!

[Kerry]

Once again, I am not questioning the selection of the retailer, only the design and layout of the building and the impact it had on the development of Lower Bricktown. We should have done better. Randy Hogan is a professional developer - he either should have produced an urban style development or we should have gotten someone else. I am not joking when I say that I can envision most of current Lower Bricktown being bulldozed in 20 years (or less). We are 1/4 of the way through the Bass Pro lease. With more areas of development coming on-line soon LB could become the least desirable place to build/visit if left in its current suburban style.

[Kerry]

I'm really hoping it's denied, there's much better locations in the area- let the farmland be!

That meeting took place on Feb 25, 2010. That was a year ago. I assume it got re-zoned if they are taking construction bids now.

[okclee]

What are the terms of the Bass Pro lease with Okc?
Would it be possible for the City to renegotiate the lease with Bass Pro?

Not a fan of the deal or the store but, I do think Bass Pro has served their purpose.

However it may be time for Okc to start looking at other options for this area. Especially with the new Boulevard coming soon, Okc river boathouse area, Maps 3 white water rapids, streetcar routes and a possible convention center near this location. It only makes financial sense for Okc to take another look at the Bass Pro lease, as this property is getting more and more valuable.

[king183]

What does this have to do with the Downtown Ford site? And how many times are you guys going to have the exact same debate over Bass Pro?

[Kerry]

What does this have to do with the Downtown Ford site? And how many times are you guys going to have the exact same debate over Bass Pro?

It only has to do with the Ford site in the context of what kind of development we will see. If the Ford site comes in with surface parking, setbacks from the street, a lot of grassy space (other than an interior courtyard) it will be a lower bricktown style failure from a design standpoint.

Suburban buildings are freestanding objects in space. Urban building are ofter shapers of space. - 101 Things I Learned in Architecture School.

That space can be positive or negative space. You will have to read the book to learn what positive and negative spaces are and how people interact with each kind.

[CChandler]

That meeting took place on Feb 25, 2010. That was a year ago. I assume it got re-zoned if they are taking construction bids now.

Oops completely missed that. Thanks for the correction.

[Rover]

It only has to do with the Ford site in the context of what kind of development we will see. If the Ford site comes in with surface parking, setbacks from the street, a lot of grassy space (other than an interior courtyard) it will be a lower bricktown style failure from a design standpoint.



That space can be positive or negative space. You will have to read the book to learn what positive and negative spaces are and how people interact with each kind.

Ford site and Pro Bass site are totally different and irrelevant to each other. Ford site has current value and Pro Bass site had practically none. The reason Ford site is being developed is that the owner already has decided it has more value than to be undeveloped surface...that is what they have now. The economics and situations are completely different and can't be compared.

[Kerry]

I know, that is why I said if Hall and Co proposes a Lower Bricktown style suburban development it will be a failure on the design front.

[ljbab728]

I know, that is why I said if Hall and Co proposes a Lower Bricktown style suburban development it will be a failure on the design front.

So we're all being proactive and going to start worrying about something now before waiting to see what the proposal is? It's a wonder that everone else who posts here doesn't have a heart attack like I did a few years ago.

[Larry OKC]

[/B]

Only by the Nay Sayers that don't want to see this Great City prosper!!

RC, are you saying that the ability for the Council to change the intent of MAPS 3 is a good thing? That they can drastically alter, eliminate completely, any or all of the projects? If some of the people running win, that is exactly what can happen.

[Spartan]

What are the terms of the Bass Pro lease with Okc?
Would it be possible for the City to renegotiate the lease with Bass Pro?

Not a fan of the deal or the store but, I do think Bass Pro has served their purpose.

It doesn't matter. The city is loosing money on the lease, because Bass Pro is actually paying less than what their lease was projected at. Just let it go. It is useful for its huge amount of free parking, which was convenient for when I go to Thunder games. Other than that it is a blight on the city's most important urban district, and will get a lot worse in the years to come. Maybe we'll be able to write a comic book about it in a few decades.

[Kerry]

So we're all being proactive and going to start worrying about something now before waiting to see what the proposal is? It's a wonder that everone else who posts here doesn't have a heart attack like I did a few years ago.

It is a two part issue. First, several of us have a personal interest in this kind of thing - sort of like a hobby. The second thing is, until the citizens start demanding better developments there won't be better developments. Developers provide what people want, so it is up to the people to tell developers what they want.

Here is a quick analogy. About 3 weeks ago I made some t-bone steaks on the grill and they were probably the best steak I have had in 10 years. I had some left so I cut it up and gave it to the dog. After that he wouldn't eat his own dog food for 2 days. He never knew what he had been missing, but now that he knows something better exist - he wants it. All I am doing is letting people know that something better exist (although Rover - coincidental name in this analogy - still likes the processed cow parts).

[G.Walker]

I have a feeling we won't hear about any announcements for this development, until after the city selects new convention center site, so we are looking probably looking at another 3 months...