NFL in OKC

[HOT ROD]

lol, that is too funny. And likely true actually.

[zookeeper]

doubtful the nfl ever expands again in the united states .. but okc could still get a team ... heck if Harold Hamm wanted to buy a team right now he could ... and then after buying the team if he decided to move it to okc he could .. and okc would sell out each and every game .. and the city/state/county would help build a stadium

So, the 75th richest man in America buys an NFL team and taxpayers pay for the stadium? Would they sell out the games without Hamm paying for the seats like Chesapeake does for the Thunder? We'll see how the Thunder stats are next year when McClendon's not at Chesapeake to subsidize his team. They buy tons of tickets and give them away and attendance statistics are skewed because of that.

[dankrutka]

You need a ton of corporate sponsors for an NFL team. The Thunder barely have enough as it is. Again, there are so many reasons this doesn't make sense (e.g., population, college teams, lack of stadium, lack of sponsors, lack of income in OKC area to support second pro team, etc.). Even if some of these reasons could be overcome I don't think the money (sponsors or from population) is there in the end.

[BoulderSooner]

So, the 75th richest man in America buys an NFL team and taxpayers pay for the stadium? Would they sell out the games without Hamm paying for the seats like Chesapeake does for the Thunder? We'll see how the Thunder stats are next year when McClendon's not at Chesapeake to subsidize his team. They buy tons of tickets and give them away and attendance statistics are skewed because of that.

the thunder would sell each and every seat .. and will next year ... 10 dollar seats go online for over 50 for just about every game ..

[dankrutka]

the thunder would sell each and every seat .. and will next year ... 10 dollar seats go online for over 50 for just about every game ..

You can't judge a franchise that is in the position the Thunder are in now. They're one of the two or three best teams in the league. Will the support be there if/when they're not and there's a competing NFL team?

I don't think a lot of people will pay for premium seats to both (and OU/OSU)... At some point, the dollars won't be there in my opinion.

[Hawk405359]

OKC still has to prove it's viability as a pro sports franchise, for that to happen, attendance has to remain good and corporate sponsorship has to stay there even when they're not at the top of the league. Selling the cheap seats is really the least important part of it, the expensive seats and boxes are far more a factor. Making any statements about our status as a pro city before then is premature, IMO. Anyone will support a good team.

Which is why I think the NFL would kibosh any new ownership attempts that they think would try to move a team here (and they have the power to do this). We still have to prove we're a viable market, we haven't yet.

[JOHNINSOKC]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but I believe the NBA has the most expensive average tickets of the 4 major leagues. So...if OKC is able to sellout 41 home games a season, with many during the week, why couldn't this city support 8 NFL home games...most of which are played on SUNDAYS??? Just like so many other things, the naysayers are always underestimating everything about this metro area, whether it's income, population growth, or even popularity now and in the future. How is it that Nashville can support both NFL and NHL and they are not a whole lot larger than OKC. I've lived in Nashville and they don't really have that many Fortune 500 companies. I doubt there's more than 4 or 5 headquartered there. They also DON'T have in excess of 2 million in their MSA. Also...the NBA recognized the combined OKC-Tulsa market as a top 25 market when combining population. Just like how Tulsans come down to OKC for Thunder games, they will also help buy tickets to any future OKC NFL team. Not to mention, OKC has been, and will most likely continue growing exponentially for many years to come. Just remember, NO ONE expected this city to land an NBA team a short 8 years ago. ANYTHING is possible, especially with all the momentum this city is experiencing, in addition to the city rapidly gaining national and international popularity.

[Hawk405359]

I've never seen anything that says that NBA tickets are the most expensive. I did a little searching for prices last year, and the prices I found said otherwise, with the NFL being far and away more expensive on average. That makes complete sense, seeing that the least valuable NFL franchise is still worth a significant chunk of money more than the most valuable NBA franchise. Now, some of the numbers were from third parties, but they were similar enough in most places I looked.

Average MLB ticket price - $26.98
Most expensive average MLB ticket price - $101.11 (Boston)
Least expensive average MLB ticket price - $33.21 (Pittsburgh)

Average NBA ticket price - $48.48.
Most expensive average NBA ticket price - $117.47 (New York)
Least expensive average NBA ticket price - $22.95 (Memphis)

Average NHL ticket price - $57.10
Most expensive average NHL ticket price - $123.77 (Toronto)
Least expensive average NHL ticket price - $29.95 (Dallas)

Average NFL ticket price - $78.38
Most expensive average NFL ticket price - $117.94 (Jets)
Least expensive average NFL ticket - $54.20 (Cleveland)

And that's only taking the ticket itself into account and not everything else that goes along with the ticket.

And if we're talking fortune 500 companies, CNN lists two in Oklahoma City and two in Tulsa, in between OKC and Tulsa, and 4 in the immediate Nashville area. Now, that's not taking Memphis (2) or Chatanooga (1) into account because they're so far away, but for an NFL game, you'd probably be more likely to have people make a trip and support those teams, compared to OKC, where three hours gets you to cities that already have die hard NFL fanbases.

[Snowman]

I've never seen anything that says that NBA tickets are the most expensive. I did a little searching for prices last year, and the prices I found said otherwise, with the NFL being far and away more expensive on average. That makes complete sense, seeing that the least valuable NFL franchise is still worth a significant chunk of money more than the most valuable NBA franchise. Now, some of the numbers were from third parties, but they were similar enough in most places I looked.

Average MLB ticket price - $26.98
Most expensive average MLB ticket price - $101.11 (Boston)
Least expensive average MLB ticket price - $33.21 (Pittsburgh)

Average NBA ticket price - $48.48.
Most expensive average NBA ticket price - $117.47 (New York)
Least expensive average NBA ticket price - $22.95 (Memphis)

Average NHL ticket price - $57.10
Most expensive average NHL ticket price - $123.77 (Toronto)
Least expensive average NHL ticket price - $29.95 (Dallas)

Average NFL ticket price - $78.38
Most expensive average NFL ticket price - $117.94 (Jets)
Least expensive average NFL ticket - $54.20 (Cleveland)

And that's only taking the ticket itself into account and not everything else that goes along with the ticket.

And if we're talking fortune 500 companies, CNN lists two in Oklahoma City and two in Tulsa, in between OKC and Tulsa, and 4 in the immediate Nashville area. Now, that's not taking Memphis (2) or Chatanooga (1) into account because they're so far away, but for an NFL game, you'd probably be more likely to have people make a trip and support those teams, compared to OKC, where three hours gets you to cities that already have die hard NFL fanbases.

Probably was the average cost of purachasing full season of tickets some year(s): MLB has more games than any of the others, NBA/NHL has the same, NFL has far fewer games. Either way it does not look like that would hold for this year.

Average ticket price X regular season home games
MLB: 26.98 X 81 = 2185.38
NBA: 48.48 X 42 = 2036.16
NHL: 57.10 X 42 = 2398.20
NFL: 78.38 X 8 = 627.04

[JOHNINSOKC]

By looking at the total spent on each sport per season, it does clearly show that NFL only accounts for roughly 1/3 of the cost of the other 3 sports. Admittedly, I was incorrect about the NBA having the most expensive ticket on average. I know that when OKC was trying to get an NHL expansion team in the 1990's, I remember hearing Mayor Norick and Clay Bennett saying that NHL was the priciest, and then NBA. Made me wonder why we were going for the most expensive sport at the time. I just believe that OKC has much more wealth than people realize, and the NFL is not too far-fetched of a possibility for this city.

[Hawk405359]

I can see that point, but if we're talking sellouts, then we're going to have to look for single game tickets because, honestly, no one sells an entire stadium of season tickets in any sport. On average, it still holds true that the NFL is a lot more expensive per game than any other major sport. There's also a question of value, you may pay more for NBA season tickets, but you also get 5x as many games at home. So is it a better value to pay 1/3 of the cost for 1/5 of the number of games? Well, that just depends on how much you like the respective sports.

And if we were talking total costs for going to a game, I'd still bet the NFL would be more expensive than that even, since most people have to pay for parking and concessions and the like as well, and I'd wager that that's more expensive in the NFL than the other leagues as well.

[Snowman]

By looking at the total spent on each sport per season, it does clearly show that NFL only accounts for roughly 1/3 of the cost of the other 3 sports. Admittedly, I was incorrect about the NBA having the most expensive ticket on average. I know that when OKC was trying to get an NHL expansion team in the 1990's, I remember hearing Mayor Norick and Clay Bennett saying that NHL was the priciest, and then NBA. Made me wonder why we were going for the most expensive sport at the time. I just believe that OKC has much more wealth than people realize, and the NFL is not too far-fetched of a possibility for this city.

Some interviews implied the NHL was seen at the time as the most likely to be possible to get a team from. At the time the NBA did not have any team considering a move, expansion was not going to happen and we would not have been first on the list at the time to move to anyway. They may be more fan ticket dollar expensive but the NFL stadiums cost more as do the teams and trying to to get into MLB as the smallest team is asking to be a doormat.

And if we were talking total costs for going to a game, I'd still bet the NFL would be more expensive than that even, since most people have to pay for parking and concessions and the like as well, and I'd wager that that's more expensive in the NFL than the other leagues as well.

Some owners do turn the screws to fans for parking and concessions but since the real money for football is in the TV rights it does not all have to be made up at the stadium.

[jedicurt]

Some owners do turn the screws to fans for parking and concessions but since the real money for football is in the TV rights it does not all have to be made up at the stadium.

except that with the NFL and the TV rights deal, you have to look at shared revenue streams versus non-shared revenue streams... concessions and parking is 100% for the ownership/stadium... the TV rights is all shared revenue. so a team can make a lot of money on concessions and parking, and other items like that and not have to give that money to anyone else.


I'm just curious how many of the people on this discussion have A) been to an NFL game, and B) have regularly gone? Not trying to brag or anything, but i make atleast 1 game each season, and have been to 22 of the 32 stadiums over the past decade. I have experienced a lot of different atmosphere's that surround the NFL, and I think that is why i just don't see OKC as a NFL city, and like i have said before, not sure if i really want it to be an NFL city.

[bchris02]

I was thinking...about the people who say the NFL will never work in OKC...why do you think that?

New Orleans has a metro population the same as OKC. New Orleans is of course a much bigger tourist market if that means anything, but they easily support both an NBA and an NFL team. Jacksonville is the size of OKC and has the NFL. Charlotte is a bit larger and supports both the NBA and NFL. I think its conceivable that OKC could support an NFL team in addition to the Thunder, especially as sports crazy as this city is. If it can't now, it definitely will be able to within a decade.

[cagoklahoma]

It seems that the typical answer to "why couldn't OKC support a NFL team?" is "OKC is a college town!" I don't know about you, but I am pretty tired of that old response. I don't believe it to be true. I remember them saying that about the NBA also. What is likely to happen is the non-graduate fans of Oklahoma State and Oklahoma will overtime begin to shift their "fandom" from the universities to the pros. Which would mean less money for the two major universities from sales of shirts, stickers, cups, and all the other junk with either the OSU or OU logo plastered on the side. The greatest benefit of OKC having a NFL team is not the professional athletes, notoriety for the city, high level of competition, or the beautiful stadium I am sure OKC citizens would approve, the greatest benefit would be less 45 year old men wearing Sam Bradford jerseys! Let’s (by let's I mean, someone who is rich should) buy the Bills, and move them to OKC. We could even keep the same logo!

[Jersey Boss]

I was thinking...about the people who say the NFL will never work in OKC...why do you think that?

New Orleans has a metro population the same as OKC. New Orleans is of course a much bigger tourist market if that means anything, but they easily support both an NBA and an NFL team. Jacksonville is the size of OKC and has the NFL. Charlotte is a bit larger and supports both the NBA and NFL. I think its conceivable that OKC could support an NFL team in addition to the Thunder, especially as sports crazy as this city is. If it can't now, it definitely will be able to within a decade.

The examples you use are not very persuasive. New orleans has struggled to support the NBA while the Saints have been there. Before the Hornets the Jazz were there for 5 years in the 70's before bolting to Utah. The Hornets would have left had Shinn had his way. As it was, the league owned the team before finally finding a buyer. The jury is still out on viability of this team making it there. Jacksonville has one pro team. While Charlotte is larger, the Hornets failed there as well and the Bobcats now only average 15, 6 a game, 24th in a 30 team league.

One must also keep in mind the media market. OKC is not top 30 and Jerry Jones would be sacrificing a little of his market should OKC get a team. Not to mention the fact that the NFL loves public financing, think the public in Oklahoma would go for it? NFL stadium costs more than a NBA/NHL arena with only a fraction of the dates.

[SoonerDave]

I was thinking...about the people who say the NFL will never work in OKC...why do you think that?

New Orleans has a metro population the same as OKC. New Orleans is of course a much bigger tourist market if that means anything, but they easily support both an NBA and an NFL team. Jacksonville is the size of OKC and has the NFL. Charlotte is a bit larger and supports both the NBA and NFL. I think its conceivable that OKC could support an NFL team in addition to the Thunder, especially as sports crazy as this city is. If it can't now, it definitely will be able to within a decade.

Jacksonville is a lousy analogy to use for support of an OKC NFL franchise. Jacksonville is regarded as one of the ongoing flops in the NFL, and their lack of attendance and support is why so many of their "home" games are slated for London. To compare New Orleans to OKC in terms of tourist appeal is a non-starter - to say nothing of the fact that the Saints weren't exactly stuffing the stands until their run a couple of years ago.

Seems this discussion gets stirred up every few months, and while I as a football fan love to imagine the idea of the NFL in OKC, there's absolutely no basis on which any such effort should be started. We do not have the corporate base, the financial base, or the media base necessary for an NFL franchise. We just don't.

The NBA is a perfect fit for OKC, and it came here only because of the perfect storm (no pun intended) of circumstances unfolded and landed the Hornets here temporarily. The NFL is a league of an entirely different financial order, and there's no way I would expect the taxpayers to fund what would be in the range of a $500 M to $1 BILLION expenditure for an NFL-caliber stadium.

Dreaming is great. Dreaming big is great. But to try and pigeonhole those dreams into a reality that ignores the financial disasters that have become the NFL's Jaguars or the stadium bill being footed by Cleveland taxpayers (see story here, is to jump from dreaming to insane fantasy. We have a legitimate, championship caliber NBA franchise in a completely paid-for arena in a small-market city. There are cities that would beg to be in such a position. To suddenly start lusting for the NFL is to ignore financial realities, and rapidly becomes the very essence of looking a gift horse in the mouth. Why on earth would we want to imperil OKC financially on a venture for which there is ample evidence from current franchises that the risk is real, and the downside immense?

[jedicurt]

the reason that the NFL will not work in OKC is because a vast majority of your fan base is already loyal to another team. The Dallas Cowboys is why an NFL team would not work in OKC. I am a Raiders fan, and while i would probably buy season tickets, it would be difficult for me to just jump allegiances. And since a large majority of people who would be the target market for an NFL team would not just switch because there is a new team in town, i don't see it as a viable sports option.

The NBA was different, because no team had such a massive hold over this market (even though Mark Cuban would like to think differently), and the signs of my previous statement are still there as well. the people i know who were big time Lakers fans are still big time Lakers fans, and the Celtics fans are still Celtics fans, there was just a vast majority of the residents who might watch the NBA but were not fans of any specific teams (just really had their teams they liked and disliked).

[Hawk405359]

I was thinking...about the people who say the NFL will never work in OKC...why do you think that?

New Orleans has a metro population the same as OKC. New Orleans is of course a much bigger tourist market if that means anything, but they easily support both an NBA and an NFL team. Jacksonville is the size of OKC and has the NFL. Charlotte is a bit larger and supports both the NBA and NFL. I think its conceivable that OKC could support an NFL team in addition to the Thunder, especially as sports crazy as this city is. If it can't now, it definitely will be able to within a decade.

Easily? You do realize that the NBA had to buy the Hornets/Pelicans recently because the ownership staff wanted to get rid of it and no one had been stepping up, right? The league owned the franchise for two seasons, and they're not exactly blowing the league away in attendance either, they were bottom third of the league 4 of the last 5 years.

The reason why I don't see the NFL in OKC is two fold. I think OKC is fairly low on the list of potential expansion/relocation destinations, and there's not going to be enough movement anytime soon for OKC to enter the conversation. Like it or not, OKC hasn't proven itself as a pro town yet. OKC has proven that it can support a new team pretty well, and that it can support a good team pretty well, but being a good pro market is about how you perform when the chips are down, if you still have the money to support a team then. We haven't had that challenge yet, and we won't until the Thunder slump. You could respond with "Rich guy could buy ______ and go anywhere, just like Al Davis did!" but that'd ignore that the Al Davis experiment was a failure and he quickly retreated back to Oakland. The league approves sales of new teams, and I'd bet that they don't have OKC in the list of the best relocation destinations so any owner with on overt attempt would probably not get approved. After the way that the Thunder came here, any Oklahoma buyer would be suspect.

Secondly, I just don't think we have the money here for two pro franchises right now. Our biggest money holders are all tied up in the Thunder right now, and those are almost all in an energy market that is, quite frankly, pretty volatile. The cheapest NFL franchise is still a bigger money commitment than the most expensive NBA franchise,and the Thunder aren't close to being that. People like to trot out population figures, and that's fine and dandy, but what you really need is money to fill the luxury boxes and sponsorships. As of now, I don't think we have that, and I don't think that's going to change in the next 10 years, at least. New Orleans has the tourism advantage that we couldn't dream of, and Jacksonville is a mess right now.

[Richard at Remax]

I go to new Orleans all the time to see family and esp for Saints games. No one there cares about the NBA, except when the heat or lakers are in town

[Snowman]

the reason that the NFL will not work in OKC is because a vast majority of your fan base is already loyal to another team. The Dallas Cowboys is why an NFL team would not work in OKC. I am a Raiders fan, and while i would probably buy season tickets, it would be difficult for me to just jump allegiances. And since a large majority of people who would be the target market for an NFL team would not just switch because there is a new team in town, i don't see it as a viable sports option.

The NBA was different, because no team had such a massive hold over this market (even though Mark Cuban would like to think differently), and the signs of my previous statement are still there as well. the people i know who were big time Lakers fans are still big time Lakers fans, and the Celtics fans are still Celtics fans, there was just a vast majority of the residents who might watch the NBA but were not fans of any specific teams (just really had their teams they liked and disliked).

If it was fifteen to twenty years ago I could see loyalty to the cowboys being a bump to get over but they have been mediocre for long enough that most of the people I know that we're cowboy fans have moved on to watching good game or following teams based off who plays on them.

[CaptDave]

I was thinking...about the people who say the NFL will never work in OKC...why do you think that?

New Orleans has a metro population the same as OKC. New Orleans is of course a much bigger tourist market if that means anything, but they easily support both an NBA and an NFL team. Jacksonville is the size of OKC and has the NFL. Charlotte is a bit larger and supports both the NBA and NFL. I think its conceivable that OKC could support an NFL team in addition to the Thunder, especially as sports crazy as this city is. If it can't now, it definitely will be able to within a decade.

If you are only looking at population, consider the population of the area/state of those locations. Oklahoma only has 3.8 million total state population and OKC is a fair distance away from other out of state population centers that are not already located within driving distance of an NFL franchise. Charlotte draws from NC and SC; New Orleans from MS, AL, and TX; Jacksonville is struggling and it can draw from AL, GA, and northern FL. I think OKC and OK is a perfect small market for the NBA. MLS might work with the right ownership group, but I think OKC/OK is quite a while away from being a consideration for the NFL.

[OKCisOK4me]

bchris02,

Try researching corporate presence between New Orleans and OKC. I think that overall, you will find N.O. has more Fortune 500 companies than OKC. I wouldn't expect the Big 3 (Chesapeake, Sandridge & Devon) to sponsor both professional leagues. The financial strain with the NFL is much more than with the NBA. Now as far as the Green Bay model goes, I don't know what to tell you. Green Bay is only a difference of 2 miles further to Chicago than OKC is to Dallas and both those franchises were born in 1919. I guess their model works because they've won 13 championships and they're a forefather of the league. I just don't think OKC can birth a new franchise and expect the same scenario.

[Snowman]

bchris02,

Try researching corporate presence between New Orleans and OKC. I think that overall, you will find N.O. has more Fortune 500 companies than OKC. I wouldn't expect the Big 3 (Chesapeake, Sandridge & Devon) to sponsor both professional leagues. The financial strain with the NFL is much more than with the NBA. Now as far as the Green Bay model goes, I don't know what to tell you. Green Bay is only a difference of 2 miles further to Chicago than OKC is to Dallas and both those franchises were born in 1919. I guess their model works because they've won 13 championships and they're a forefather of the league. I just don't think OKC can birth a new franchise and expect the same scenario.

The Green Bay ownership model is not allowed any more, they can keep it since it was grandfathered in. But they also get help from the proximity to Milwaukee to draw fans from.

[OKCisOK4me]

It was made known to me that New Orleans only has one Fortune 500 company (Entergy @ #261 (thank you Green Country)). I did a search via Wikipedia and both cities are about even. As of 7 months ago (the last update), OKC has 2 500s, 1 1000, 35 headquartered and 28 with significant presence for a grand total of 66 and I'm sure there are other smaller companies that didn't make the list. For New Orleans, the one top 500 and 62 other companies either headquartered or with significant presence for a total of 63 +/- the local businesses that the updater didn't know about (updated 2 months ago).