Penn Square Mall

[jdcf]

I think the store mix at Penn Square is great and like the way it seems to be evolving. I am glad the gym is going or gone. I recall trying to make a purchase in Pottery Barn Kids with extreme pounding sounds and shaking from above.

It is the mall design and layout that I don't particularly like, even though I know how the mall has been redeveloped over time. I don't like having to go to two Dillards whenever we shop as a couple. I wonder why the former Montgomery Ward building faacade was never fully updated. Ownership? And, I have never understand why when being built, it was acceptable to have the mis-matched brick toward the top of the J C Penney building, south side.

[Larry OKC]

The split Dillards is problematic to me too but it wasn't designed to be that way. The JCPenney thing is odd too since it was the relative recent expansion of the mall. Can only guess that someone screwed up on the number of bricks needed and they didn't discover it until the other was up so when the needed bricks arrived and didnt match it was too late/or cost prohibitive to fix it at that point.

[soonerliberal]

Most of the folks complaining either have no frame of reference or have ridiculous expectations for this market. These are the same people who think OKC could support an NFL and NBA franchise at the same time.

No... apples and oranges. The correct frame of reference would be to look at similar metropolitan areas and see what types of stores that are not present in Oklahoma that are present in those markets.

[soonerliberal]

I have zero stake in Penn Square. In fact I try to avoid it at Christmas! Penn is not an upscale mall, but it is definitely upper middle scale, but most people on here are treating it like its Crossroads! I'm baffled

50 Penn, I believe, has the opportunity to bring in some upper scale clients.. Maybe that could be their niche

I don't think we disagree about the aesthetics of the inside of the mall. I think pretty much everyone can agree that the interior of Penn Square is done quite well and compares with most average to above-average malls (and some elite malls as well). However, I believe the argument is with the store selection. The store selection of Penn Square is on par with what you would find in most mediocre malls in comparable markets. I don't think anyone is trying to compare Penn Square with Crossroads or even Sooner Mall for that matter, but the comparison is with other malls in markets of the similar size and demographics.

[betts]

I must say, though, that Dillards shoe department is starting to rival Nordstroms. The exception is that they don't have the $500 to $1200 shoes, which is fine with me. The selection at Dillards is almost overwhelming, even for a dedicated shoe shopper like me. That, occasionally Pottery Barn and William Sonoma, are pretty much the only stores at which I shop at Penn Square, but I certainly don't feel like I'm missing out. I prefer non-mall stores for most of my shopping, and I like Off Fifth at the Outlet Mall for discount designer clothing.

[Spartan]

Most of the folks complaining either have no frame of reference or have ridiculous expectations for this market. These are the same people who think OKC could support an NFL and NBA franchise at the same time.

Penn is a pretty good mall. When I need clothing, aside from my suits, which I buy exclusively from Tom James, Penn offers a great mix of selection and if you look you can usually find what you need on sale somewhere.

Accepting Penn Square as a premier retail destination for a metro of 1.3 million would have to be some pretty low expectations. But then again, this is why most every metro over 800,000 is significantly ahead of OKC with retail. Omaha even has several malls that probably best Penn Square, not to mention they have stand-alone retail districts (like NoDo - Urban Outfitters) and the Old Market. Louisville has its Old Highlands and Village areas. Tulsa has Utica Square that is a suitable premier retail destination for them. Birmingham has a few areas too, including some beautiful urban suburbs.

I would tend to expect a little higher than Utica for OKC's premier retail destination, rather than a LOT lower. And there is no way to argue otherwise than Utica Square > huge margin > Penn Square.

I'm just saying that while I don't think I want to see the NFL in OKC, we deserve a LOT better retail, and continuing the delusions of grandeur surrounding Penn Square may be one of many factors keeping us in the dark.

[metro]

Most of the folks complaining either have no frame of reference or have ridiculous expectations for this market. These are the same people who think OKC could support an NFL and NBA franchise at the same time.

Penn is a pretty good mall. When I need clothing, aside from my suits, which I buy exclusively from Tom James, Penn offers a great mix of selection and if you look you can usually find what you need on sale somewhere.

Exactly.

[betts]

Accepting Penn Square as a premier retail destination for a metro of 1.3 million would have to be some pretty low expectations. But then again, this is why most every metro over 800,000 is significantly ahead of OKC with retail. Omaha even has several malls that probably best Penn Square, not to mention they have stand-alone retail districts (like NoDo - Urban Outfitters) and the Old Market. Louisville has its Old Highlands and Village areas. Tulsa has Utica Square that is a suitable premier retail destination for them. Birmingham has a few areas too, including some beautiful urban suburbs.

I would tend to expect a little higher than Utica for OKC's premier retail destination, rather than a LOT lower. And there is no way to argue otherwise than Utica Square > huge margin > Penn Square.

I'm just saying that while I don't think I want to see the NFL in OKC, we deserve a LOT better retail, and continuing the delusions of grandeur surrounding Penn Square may be one of many factors keeping us in the dark.

Maybe we're ahead of them. When have malls ever been the last word in city shopping? We use Dallas as a benchmark, but how urban is Dallas? When I go to a city, I want to shop at stores that aren't like what I have at home, for the most part, and the only large city where I've visited a mall is Atlanta. Nichols Hills Plaza, Classen Curve and Western have some great shopping with unique merchandise. For the most part, I'm really satisfied with the shopping options here nowadays. To be honest with you, I'd rather shop at Off Fifth than the Saks at Utica Square, because there's more merchandise and the prices are better. As I said, if you're wanting shoes, Dillards is starting to give Nordstrom a run for their money, and Heritage Shoes and the Webb have some excellent options as well, as does the Shoe Gypsy. It's a shame we lost the Chanel line, but you can get other high end designers here. It might be nice to have Louis Vuitton, but that's about it, as far as I'm concerned.

[OklahomaNick]

I undoubtedly agree that OKC has been behind in attracting the retail we deserve to a market of this size. Let's pause for a minute and thank the OKC Chamber & companies like Chesapeake for doing such fantastic retail economic development. It will be exciting to see the entire Classen Curve filled up.

[Patrick]

Accepting Penn Square as a premier retail destination for a metro of 1.3 million would have to be some pretty low expectations. But then again, this is why most every metro over 800,000 is significantly ahead of OKC with retail. Omaha even has several malls that probably best Penn Square, not to mention they have stand-alone retail districts (like NoDo - Urban Outfitters) and the Old Market. Louisville has its Old Highlands and Village areas. Tulsa has Utica Square that is a suitable premier retail destination for them. Birmingham has a few areas too, including some beautiful urban suburbs.

I would tend to expect a little higher than Utica for OKC's premier retail destination, rather than a LOT lower. And there is no way to argue otherwise than Utica Square > huge margin > Penn Square.

I'm just saying that while I don't think I want to see the NFL in OKC, we deserve a LOT better retail, and continuing the delusions of grandeur surrounding Penn Square may be one of many factors keeping us in the dark.

I really don't get where you're coming from. I don't really compare Penn Square to Utica Square because one is a regional mall and the other an outdoors shopping center. But, even if you did, the only thing Utica really has over Penn is a Saks. The only other department store they have is Miss Jacksons, and that definitely isn't anything special. Really, what else does Utica have that Penn doesn't? An Anthropologie? Well, we have one of those nearby in Classen Triangle. Penn Square is more comparable though to its sister Simon branded indoor mall, Woodland Hills Mall. Both have a similar mix of tenants, have similar finishings (both in fact had interior renovations designed by the same interior designer, thus the reason why both have the same texture and color of marble floorings), etc. You can't really compare Penn Square to say the Beverly Center. One is in OKC and one is in LA. You can't compare Penn to the Houston Galleria. I mean, Houston is the 4th largest city in the US, and has a much larger population and more money.

Face it....this is Oklahoma City. What stores are you looking for exactly? Gucci, Louis Voutton, Burberry, Tiffany and Co, Nieman Marcus? Yeah, maybe for cities the size of Dallas.

You mention Omaha and say that it has SEVERAL malls that best Penn Square. Which Omaha malls are you referring to? Oak View Mall in Omaha is a mall owned by GGP, and has a store line-up that's almost identical to Quail Springs. You have Westroads Mall, another GGP mall, again with a similar line up as Quail Springs. Both claim to be the premier shopping destinations in Omaha, but yet have the same stores as Quail Springs. Regency Court is a smaller shopping mall that has some upscale stores, but not much anything more than Penn has. So, put your money where your mouth is and show me some facts on how Omaha has "several" malls that best Penn Square. You can't compare Penn Square to Old Market. One is a regional mall with national mall retailers, the other is a downtown arts and entertainment district. So, I don't really see why the bashing of Penn Square. It's pretty comparable to other upper middle level malls in similar markets.

Penn Square has pretty much the same upper middle level stores as all of the places you mention: J Crew, White House Black Market, Jos A. Bank, Potter Barn, Williams Sonoma, Ann Taylor, Ann Taylor LOFT, Apple, Lucca, Apricot Lane, Swarovski, Sephora, Eddie Bauer, Vans, Aldo, Cache, Brighton, Apple, Coach, Chicos, Brookstone, J. Jill, Bachrach, Georgiou, Coldwater Creek, Fossil, Banana Republic. And then they also have the more traditional middle road national retailers like the Gap stores, The Limited, Lane Bryant, Wet Seal, Justice, Hot Topic, Finish Line, Foot Locker, Yankee Candle, New York and Company, Men's Warehouse, Charlotte Ruse, Aerosptale, Motherhood Maternity, Claires, Origins, Bath and Body Works, Zales, Gordons, Bare Ecentuals, Bakers, Claires, the Abrecrombie stores, Vanity, The Buckle, Build-A-Bear, American Eagle, etc.

I just don't get what you're looking for. That's equivalent or better than to two main malls in Omaha. For a mid-size mall, I think that's a pretty decent mix. I mean, I think it's a little unfair to try to compare Penn to The Houston Galleria, Beverly Center, Northpark Center, etc.

[metro]

Well said Patrick, but maybe Spartan is one of the 99%'ers college students that regularly enjoys shopping a Neiman Marcus, Saks, Gucci, Fendi, Armani, Versace and the likes. Don't most of us 99%ers? I mean come on surely you regularly shopped at these type of stores elsewhere in college and traveling abroad during your studies?

[oneforone]

I don't understand why one would complain about retail options in this day and age. You can shop online, fly drive/have your chaufeur drive you to Dallas, Houston or Kansas City for the day or weekend.

I really don't see the need to buy have the expensive stuff on the market these days. Any day we slide right into financial ruin the debt keeps piling up and all it will take is the foreign governments to call in the loans we owe or another major industry to hit hardship. There is not enough money for another bailout therefore the next big crash will slide us right into a record depression.

[OklahomaNick]

I really don't get where you're coming from. I don't really compare Penn Square to Utica Square because one is a regional mall and the other an outdoors shopping center. But, even if you did, the only thing Utica really has over Penn is a Saks. The only other department store they have is Miss Jacksons, and that definitely isn't anything special. Really, what else does Utica have that Penn doesn't? An Anthropologie? Well, we have one of those nearby in Classen Triangle. Penn Square is more comparable though to its sister Simon branded indoor mall, Woodland Hills Mall. Both have a similar mix of tenants, have similar finishings (both in fact had interior renovations designed by the same interior designer, thus the reason why both have the same texture and color of marble floorings), etc. You can't really compare Penn Square to say the Beverly Center. One is in OKC and one is in LA. You can't compare Penn to the Houston Galleria. I mean, Houston is the 4th largest city in the US, and has a much larger population and more money.

Face it....this is Oklahoma City. What stores are you looking for exactly? Gucci, Louis Voutton, Burberry, Tiffany and Co, Nieman Marcus? Yeah, maybe for cities the size of Dallas.

You mention Omaha and say that it has SEVERAL malls that best Penn Square. Which Omaha malls are you referring to? Oak View Mall in Omaha is a mall owned by GGP, and has a store line-up that's almost identical to Quail Springs. You have Westroads Mall, another GGP mall, again with a similar line up as Quail Springs. Both claim to be the premier shopping destinations in Omaha, but yet have the same stores as Quail Springs. Regency Court is a smaller shopping mall that has some upscale stores, but not much anything more than Penn has. So, put your money where your mouth is and show me some facts on how Omaha has "several" malls that best Penn Square. You can't compare Penn Square to Old Market. One is a regional mall with national mall retailers, the other is a downtown arts and entertainment district. So, I don't really see why the bashing of Penn Square. It's pretty comparable to other upper middle level malls in similar markets.

Penn Square has pretty much the same upper middle level stores as all of the places you mention: J Crew, White House Black Market, Jos A. Bank, Potter Barn, Williams Sonoma, Ann Taylor, Ann Taylor LOFT, Apple, Lucca, Apricot Lane, Swarovski, Sephora, Eddie Bauer, Vans, Aldo, Cache, Brighton, Apple, Coach, Chicos, Brookstone, J. Jill, Bachrach, Georgiou, Coldwater Creek, Fossil, Banana Republic. And then they also have the more traditional middle road national retailers like the Gap stores, The Limited, Lane Bryant, Wet Seal, Justice, Hot Topic, Finish Line, Foot Locker, Yankee Candle, New York and Company, Men's Warehouse, Charlotte Ruse, Aerosptale, Motherhood Maternity, Claires, Origins, Bath and Body Works, Zales, Gordons, Bare Ecentuals, Bakers, Claires, the Abrecrombie stores, Vanity, The Buckle, Build-A-Bear, American Eagle, etc.

I just don't get what you're looking for. That's equivalent or better than to two main malls in Omaha. For a mid-size mall, I think that's a pretty decent mix. I mean, I think it's a little unfair to try to compare Penn to The Houston Galleria, Beverly Center, Northpark Center, etc.

Basically everything I said in post #71

[bombermwc]

Totally agree Patrick and OkNick. But good luck convincing him that he's got a scewed perspective. Of course, he must be correct. (sarcasm).

[Spartan]

Well said Patrick, but maybe Spartan is one of the 99%'ers college students that regularly enjoys shopping a Neiman Marcus, Saks, Gucci, Fendi, Armani, Versace and the likes. Don't most of us 99%ers? I mean come on surely you regularly shopped at these type of stores elsewhere in college and traveling abroad during your studies?

Wtf are you talking about?

[Spartan]

I really don't get where you're coming from. I don't really compare Penn Square to Utica Square because one is a regional mall and the other an outdoors shopping center. But, even if you did, the only thing Utica really has over Penn is a Saks. The only other department store they have is Miss Jacksons, and that definitely isn't anything special. Really, what else does Utica have that Penn doesn't? An Anthropologie? Well, we have one of those nearby in Classen Triangle. Penn Square is more comparable though to its sister Simon branded indoor mall, Woodland Hills Mall. Both have a similar mix of tenants, have similar finishings (both in fact had interior renovations designed by the same interior designer, thus the reason why both have the same texture and color of marble floorings), etc. You can't really compare Penn Square to say the Beverly Center. One is in OKC and one is in LA. You can't compare Penn to the Houston Galleria. I mean, Houston is the 4th largest city in the US, and has a much larger population and more money.

Face it....this is Oklahoma City. What stores are you looking for exactly? Gucci, Louis Voutton, Burberry, Tiffany and Co, Nieman Marcus? Yeah, maybe for cities the size of Dallas.

You mention Omaha and say that it has SEVERAL malls that best Penn Square. Which Omaha malls are you referring to? Oak View Mall in Omaha is a mall owned by GGP, and has a store line-up that's almost identical to Quail Springs. You have Westroads Mall, another GGP mall, again with a similar line up as Quail Springs. Both claim to be the premier shopping destinations in Omaha, but yet have the same stores as Quail Springs. Regency Court is a smaller shopping mall that has some upscale stores, but not much anything more than Penn has. So, put your money where your mouth is and show me some facts on how Omaha has "several" malls that best Penn Square. You can't compare Penn Square to Old Market. One is a regional mall with national mall retailers, the other is a downtown arts and entertainment district. So, I don't really see why the bashing of Penn Square. It's pretty comparable to other upper middle level malls in similar markets.

Penn Square has pretty much the same upper middle level stores as all of the places you mention: J Crew, White House Black Market, Jos A. Bank, Potter Barn, Williams Sonoma, Ann Taylor, Ann Taylor LOFT, Apple, Lucca, Apricot Lane, Swarovski, Sephora, Eddie Bauer, Vans, Aldo, Cache, Brighton, Apple, Coach, Chicos, Brookstone, J. Jill, Bachrach, Georgiou, Coldwater Creek, Fossil, Banana Republic. And then they also have the more traditional middle road national retailers like the Gap stores, The Limited, Lane Bryant, Wet Seal, Justice, Hot Topic, Finish Line, Foot Locker, Yankee Candle, New York and Company, Men's Warehouse, Charlotte Ruse, Aerosptale, Motherhood Maternity, Claires, Origins, Bath and Body Works, Zales, Gordons, Bare Ecentuals, Bakers, Claires, the Abrecrombie stores, Vanity, The Buckle, Build-A-Bear, American Eagle, etc.

I just don't get what you're looking for. That's equivalent or better than to two main malls in Omaha. For a mid-size mall, I think that's a pretty decent mix. I mean, I think it's a little unfair to try to compare Penn to The Houston Galleria, Beverly Center, Northpark Center, etc.

That's the operative difference. Penn Square's niche is middle of the road retailers. That's not a problem at all. The problem begins and ends with the fact that Penn Square is widely regarded as OKC's premier retail "destination" and the ownership is going to leverage that to get their hands on a public investment in their mall, and that's what I'm totally against for two main reasons. First being that at no time should our limited public resources be spent on another indoor shopping mall which we have plenty of, and the second is that competes with higher civic priorities. Like actual destination retail, urban retail, etc.

As for Omaha, you just rationalized how none of those are comparable to Penn Square. We agree there, because all of those are far better shopping destinations than Penn Square. Old Town somehow has been able to make urban retail work. How is that we, with more than double the downtown investment of Omaha in the last decade, keep making laughable passes at the goal of urban retail?

Consider that these are retailers that Omaha had for years: Whole Foods, Wild Oats (pre-merger), Trader Joe's, California Pizza Kitchen, Cheesecake Factory, Urban Outfitters, Anthropologie, and others.

Even though this project is out at 168th and West Dodge, I'd consider Village Point (think similar to the dead Village Quail Springs/Tuscana project) superior to anything we have yet. Regency Court is also an excellent retail project, also on Dodge (think 50 Penn in its heyday). They got Urban Outfitters in their downtown. One Pacific Place is also worth mentioning, it has TJ and some other good upscale retailers. And lastly, here's the best development in all of Omaha (IMO):


Midtown Crossing - a true mixed-use development, which has injected a ton of vitality in an area that was pretty blighted.

Our problem in OKC is that we need to stop accepting low quality development. We need to stop praising Penn Square, which would be considered middle-range anywhere else. OKC is very particular for having exceedingly low building standards, which have been normalized over time, thus making it very difficult to raise the bar. We just need to focus more on getting these kinds of developments that Omaha has, for example (granted, several of these Omaha projects are NOT perfect).

[bombermwc]

Problem #1 - You are trying to compare a Mall built back in the 70's with a brand new shoping district that is a mixed use facilty. How are those two even in the same part of the planet? This is really the base of the flawed arguement here. Comparing apples to oranges makes for a bad discussion. If you want a heads on battle, you have to go with Penn to something like Woodland Hills Mall in Tulsa....not Utica.

Problem #2 - You say "accept low quality development". Penn was built decades before you were even born. I'd say you would hard pressed to find anyone, anywhere that would say the facility isn't better now than it was when it was built. Or would you rather it had stayed an outdoor 70's niche strip mall? The updates made to the MALL have kept it going and in a nice way. It COULD have gone the way of Shepard Mall, which WAS THE destination mall in OKC in its time. I would say Penn has done just fine for itself.

As for the question of developing downtown, you're too young to have really experience downtown in the early 90's. We HAD to put that much into it to make ANYTHING happen. WE killed it off with "urban renewal" and we paid the price for it. When you're at the bottom of the barrell, it takes a LOT of effort to pull yourself back up. Really, only in the last 10 (and even more the last 5) have we seen the push outside of civic efforts to really make a difference downtown. Retail isn't going to be the first thing back. I wouldn't be surprised if it never comes back. It's one thing to maintain that downtown retail like Omaha (who didn't have downtown death like OKC). But after that, the retail world changed to move away from downtowns. Getting it to go back is far more difficult now. For one thing, you don't have the people living there to make it happen. And with so many options outside of downtown for those that don't live downtown, why would they go downtown? You have to force people there by putting in something that isn't available elsewhere to start with. Dave and Busters could have been a good example of that. There are plenty places to eat downtown, but what do you do besides see a movie?

[Spartan]

Problem #1 - You are trying to compare a Mall built back in the 70's with a brand new shoping district that is a mixed use facilty. How are those two even in the same part of the planet? This is really the base of the flawed arguement here. Comparing apples to oranges makes for a bad discussion. If you want a heads on battle, you have to go with Penn to something like Woodland Hills Mall in Tulsa....not Utica.

Problem #2 - You say "accept low quality development". Penn was built decades before you were even born. I'd say you would hard pressed to find anyone, anywhere that would say the facility isn't better now than it was when it was built. Or would you rather it had stayed an outdoor 70's niche strip mall? The updates made to the MALL have kept it going and in a nice way. It COULD have gone the way of Shepard Mall, which WAS THE destination mall in OKC in its time. I would say Penn has done just fine for itself.

As for the question of developing downtown, you're too young to have really experience downtown in the early 90's. We HAD to put that much into it to make ANYTHING happen. WE killed it off with "urban renewal" and we paid the price for it. When you're at the bottom of the barrell, it takes a LOT of effort to pull yourself back up. Really, only in the last 10 (and even more the last 5) have we seen the push outside of civic efforts to really make a difference downtown. Retail isn't going to be the first thing back. I wouldn't be surprised if it never comes back. It's one thing to maintain that downtown retail like Omaha (who didn't have downtown death like OKC). But after that, the retail world changed to move away from downtowns. Getting it to go back is far more difficult now. For one thing, you don't have the people living there to make it happen. And with so many options outside of downtown for those that don't live downtown, why would they go downtown? You have to force people there by putting in something that isn't available elsewhere to start with. Dave and Busters could have been a good example of that. There are plenty places to eat downtown, but what do you do besides see a movie?

Bomber, this is a good post for you (relatively innocuous personal attacks, points backed up with reasoning) - keep it up! I promise you I will respond more to all of your points, and I'm going to tell you that you have some things right IMO, when I have more time..

But just a few quick points..

I think you're missing the point about indoor shopping malls. The fact that OKC's "premier retail destination" is an indoor shopping of no particular distinction a la Galleria status, is the epitome of the problem. Obviously Utica Square is a more evolved (or you could say enlightened) development form (ironic for pre-dating it, and replacing something that was so similar to Utica). If a city doesn't have a "Galleria" (or "Mall of America," etc., whatnot) usually these days the premier retail destination IS a lifestyle center or urban development. We don't have that as far as retail goes, yet.

I'd be careful about arguing some differences between Shepherd and Penn, as opposed to the outdoor mall predecessor. Penn is obviously a LOT more similar to Shepherd.

Furthermore, I think downtown retail is more a matter of a can-do attitude than we realize. I may exaggerate the development volume (primarily residential infill in the thousands of units), but I think you underestimate it. That's an okay thing to be bullish on, in fact IMO it's much more interesting than being bullish on a 1970s-era indoor shopping mall.

I don't think Penn is the finest example I could come up with for "accepting low quality development." We all know the countless cases of that. I think Quail is a much better example than Penn.

Lastly, I think Omaha did kill its downtown with a smaller urban renewal program. Every major city did urban renewal, especially considering there was federal money being thrown at cities for doing so. I may be wrong on this, I'm not an Omaha expert (only been there few times), but I think the Old Town there developed on a similar timeline to Dallas' West End (so just slightly ahead of Bricktown) although clearly it outlasted the West End.

Wichita has an Old Town with tons of local retail, I'm told. Lackmeyer has done several blog posts on Wichita, although I usually plug my nose and speed up whenever I'm going through there so I wouldn't know.

[JWil]

Wichita's Old Town is pretty nice for the size of ICT. Their downtown is nice and the NW and NE sides of town are put together pretty well. No reason to go south of Kellogg, but that's how I feel about I-40 here so it's not the end of the world.

[proud2Bsooner]

This thread is relatively useless. It is a thread that was hijacked by Spartan's youthful criticism, like most others he gets involved with...followed by a lot of "what are you talking abouts?". Followed by meaningless, plotted retorts from the critic.

Another reason why this is useless is because malls (large scale retail) are almost completely dependent on out-of-state investment. It's not a good time for that. Local people and companies that own property in OKC are in general, squatters. Buy it up and sit on it, hoping for a big, out-of-state investor to get stupid with the cash.

I think at some point in this thread an example of a model, Omaha mall (seems like an oxymoron) was one of those outdoor malls. As many of us remember, that's what Penn² used to be. I can remember going there as a kid in the summer, and being absolutely miserable. Sweat and shopping don't mix. Neither does frostbite (or broken hips) and shopping. Indoor malls are where it's at when you need a lot of stores in the same area. I think Penn² is fine, and probably the most desirable mall in the city, although it's not "upscale" (another silly OKCTalk-ism). And BTW, the Midtown Crossing example in a mall discussion was horrible. This is self-explanatory when you visit their website. They're condos with 4 shops and a few trendy restaurants. Give it up!

[GaryOKC6]

This thread is relatively useless. It is a thread that was hijacked by Spartan's youthful criticism, like most others he gets involved with...followed by a lot of "what are you talking abouts?". Followed by meaningless, plotted retorts from the critic.

Another reason why this is useless is because malls (large scale retail) are almost completely dependent on out-of-state investment. It's not a good time for that. Local people and companies that own property in OKC are in general, squatters. Buy it up and sit on it, hoping for a big, out-of-state investor to get stupid with the cash.

I think at some point in this thread an example of a model, Omaha mall (seems like an oxymoron) was one of those outdoor malls. As many of us remember, that's what Penn² used to be. I can remember going there as a kid in the summer, and being absolutely miserable. Sweat and shopping don't mix. Neither does frostbite (or broken hips) and shopping. Indoor malls are where it's at when you need a lot of stores in the same area. I think Penn² is fine, and probably the most desirable mall in the city, although it's not "upscale" (another silly OKCTalk-ism). And BTW, the Midtown Crossing example in a mall discussion was horrible. This is self-explanatory when you visit their website. They're condos with 4 shops and a few trendy restaurants. Give it up!

You have to remember that Spartan is your not so typical OKC enthusiast..that's "never enthusiastic" about anything.

[BDP]

I don't understand why one would complain about retail options in this day and age. You can shop online, fly drive/have your chaufeur drive you to Dallas, Houston or Kansas City for the day or weekend.

For some, shopping is a casual activity, something they just "do" that's not always motivated by the need or want to make a purchase. And, most importantly for the city, if people are blowing that type of cash to do it in Dallas, Houston, or Kansas City, then the city stands to gain a lot from attracting the kind of retail that these people are flying to or being chauffeured to, as the city loses a lot of money when the tax on those sales do not end up in its coffers. The sales themselves could also be bigger simply because the customer would save a few hundred dollars by avoiding the transportation and lodging costs.

Consider that these are retailers that Omaha had for years: Whole Foods, Wild Oats (pre-merger), Trader Joe's, California Pizza Kitchen, Cheesecake Factory, Urban Outfitters, Anthropologie, and others.

Well, if this is the goal, then Oklahoma City IS on a roll as far as retail goes, given that half of those have opened locations here in the last few years. In the end, true urban retail is as much about cultivating local and community based retail as it is bringing in the corporate mass market ones. The real reason, imo, to take shopping dollars out of state is to visit densely occupied shopping districts that feature unique locally owned shops. If the type of stores you listed want to put up shop in Oklahoma City, then that's fine, but honestly, if we're going to commit public resources to retail, I think we're better served in the long run cultivating our local businesses first rather than selling our souls to corporate retail. Not only does more of the money stay in Oklahoma, but it helps keep the city from just becoming "everywhere USA". Penn Square swap a lot of its current stores for more "upscale" ones and the experience would not change much. It would still be an indoor suburban mall filled with mass market retailers. They'd just be charging 20-50% more for their fashion than the current ones do.

[Bunty]

Indoor malls are where it's at when you need a lot of stores in the same area. I think Penn² is fine, and probably the most desirable mall in the city, although it's not "upscale" (another silly OKCTalk-ism). And BTW, the Midtown Crossing example in a mall discussion was horrible. This is self-explanatory when you visit their website. They're condos with 4 shops and a few trendy restaurants. Give it up!

Maybe indoor malls can make a come back if considerably cheaper and more efficient ways can be found to heat and cool them.

[Spartan]

This thread is relatively useless. It is a thread that was hijacked by Spartan's youthful criticism, like most others he gets involved with...followed by a lot of "what are you talking abouts?". Followed by meaningless, plotted retorts from the critic.

Another reason why this is useless is because malls (large scale retail) are almost completely dependent on out-of-state investment. It's not a good time for that. Local people and companies that own property in OKC are in general, squatters. Buy it up and sit on it, hoping for a big, out-of-state investor to get stupid with the cash.

I think at some point in this thread an example of a model, Omaha mall (seems like an oxymoron) was one of those outdoor malls. As many of us remember, that's what Penn² used to be. I can remember going there as a kid in the summer, and being absolutely miserable. Sweat and shopping don't mix. Neither does frostbite (or broken hips) and shopping. Indoor malls are where it's at when you need a lot of stores in the same area. I think Penn² is fine, and probably the most desirable mall in the city, although it's not "upscale" (another silly OKCTalk-ism). And BTW, the Midtown Crossing example in a mall discussion was horrible. This is self-explanatory when you visit their website. They're condos with 4 shops and a few trendy restaurants. Give it up!

Before you make references my age, why don't you tell us all your age for the record? Even though I'm getting ganged up on here, I'm going to continue to point out the posts that wreak ignorance..this is definitely one of them.

Did you want me to actually respond to metro's post, or are you another account of metro's, or do you have any good reason to care what response I had for metro and other stupid posts in this thread? I'll quote metro's post again just to highlight its relevance to this discussion and profound depth of reasoning:

Well said Patrick, but maybe Spartan is one of the 99%'ers college students that regularly enjoys shopping a Neiman Marcus, Saks, Gucci, Fendi, Armani, Versace and the likes. Don't most of us 99%ers? I mean come on surely you regularly shopped at these type of stores elsewhere in college and traveling abroad during your studies?

Or this one:

For what it's worth, i never said Galleria was upscale....it's just a size comparison.

Spartan, how interesting how so many people disagree and you decide to just abandon your comments rather than give any details to support them. When you and I disagree, at least i'll make the good fight to support my arguement.

Or this one:

You have to remember that Spartan is your not so typical OKC enthusiast..that's "never enthusiastic" about anything.

___________

I'm sorry, but these are posts coming from someone who's sad enough to think he has a message board rivalry with anyone approaching 1/10th of his post count, someone who recently insisted that lease meant for-sale vis a vis downtown housing discussions, and someone who I don't know, but thinks they know me (or at least enough to reference personal attributes of myself, which creeps me out coming from you message board people).

So yes, I agree with proud2bsooner that this thread is doomed. It's doomed because I have made my argument that perhaps OKC should look beyond the typical indoor mall options for growing its retail. I offered some pretty concrete examples of how all of those retailers we're looking for aren't going into indoor malls. If you guys think Urban Outfitters (or [insert coveted retailer here]) is going to locate in Penn Square, keep on dreaming. And then don't be surprised when Simon hits us up for millions and millions in public financing and subsidies saying it's the only option for growing our retail.

I've made my arguments. I've yet to see a decent argument that addresses the reality of indoor malls going the way of the dodo nationally in a way that convinces me we need to invest in ours at the cost of investing in other opportunities. I'm finished responding to personal attacks and repeated arguments. I'm certain several other posters will continue to say I've dodged your responses, but I will let you guys know when I see an argument that is worth responding to rather than ad hominems and baseless retorts. Still waiting...

I think this thread has been more of an exercise in backlash against me and less of an actual forum for ideas or meaningful thoughts. I think BDP had a meaningful post, or at least from skimming it appeared so, but I just don't have the energy or care enough to read it after going through a page full of crap in this thread. I wish there was a way to more meaningfully express my annoyance at this, but I hope eventually less posters on here will feel the need to stunt critical evaluation. Why people feel so constantly threatened by taking a critical look at OKC's issues, I have no idea.

My impression is that several posters on here are intellectually juvenile.

[Lafferty Daniel]

Guys, Spartan is right. He is the only person who can see the truth. And everyone else that is against him is wrong. Even though that is the overwhelming majority of people on this board, he is still the only one that is right.

Come on people!