University Town Center

[ljbab728]

Why would a 5 story apartment building in downtown Norman be out of the question? Why can’t an existing 1 or 2 story building can’t be razed to make way for such an apartment building? Why does downtown Norman, or any historic downtown, have to remain in a perpetual state of suspended development? Who decided downtown Norman shouldn't continue to develop and when did they decide this? Did the Norman City Council pass a resolution that said downtown has developed enough and all new development should occur elsewhere?

You may be interested in what comes of this.


http://newsok.com/discussion-series-...rticle/3681722

[Just the facts]

You may be interested in what comes of this.


http://newsok.com/discussion-series-...rticle/3681722

Thanks for that link and I look forward to hearing the outcomes of these meetings. I really wish I was there to attend. 100 units per acre is pretty high and for the city to state that they are getting mutiple requests is very promising.

[lasomeday]

Main Street is the heart of Norman. NOT OU or Target. They need to teardown the two shopping centers at Main and Lahoma with mixed use urban design. That would be better used tax dollars or investment than anything at UNP. Students can live there and bike or walk to campus as well as walk to multiple grocery stores and bars.

[ljbab728]

Kerry, I have no problem with redeveloping shopping centers that aren't in the core downtown area. I do have a problem with tearing down any current single family housing in the core area. I grew up in Norman and my grandparents lived on Alameda which was a couple of blocks south of Main Street. The ambience would be absolutely ruined if you start tearing out single family housing in those nice walkable neighborhoods. There is just no need for it. It's silly to just promote density only for the sake of density.

[Just the facts]

I'll tell you what - we got way off track from UNP so back to topic.

I haven't been there in several years but I don't think much has changed. So where did UNP go wrong? What isn't there that people thought would be there or better yet, what is there that people DIDN'T think would be there?

[jedicurt]

I'll tell you what - we got way off track from UNP so back to topic.

I haven't been there in several years but I don't think much has changed. So where did UNP go wrong? What isn't there that people thought would be there or better yet, what is there that people DIDN'T think would be there?

i didn't think there would eventually be 3 mattress stores. And it when wrong because the city of norman thought business would come to norman over moore cause we are norman and they are moore, where as moore gave incentives

[Just the facts]

I thought one of the 'goals' of UNP wasn't just to create a shopping center but also create a sense of place. When you are in UNP did you feel like you are someplace special and unique? How about when you are in the store along I-35 in Moore, are they unique and special?

[dop]

I thought one of the 'goals' of UNP wasn't just to create a shopping center but also create a sense of place. When you are in UNP did you feel like you are someplace special and unique? How about when you are in the store along I-35 in Moore, are they unique and special?

It is hard to tell yet, because the water feature is not in place yet, and the "upper end" mall has not happened yet (and I know there has been lots of changes to that). That being said the initial planning for UNP is almost ten years old now, so it should be finished! LOL! Many thought this land could naturally develop, but even with the TIF, this place is still struggling to establish.

[Just the facts]

It is hard to tell yet, because the water feature is not in place yet, and the "upper end" mall has not happened yet (and I know there has been lots of changes to that). That being said the initial planning for UNP is almost ten years old now, so it should be finished! LOL! Many thought this land could naturally develop, but even with the TIF, this place is still struggling to establish.

Do you think it was a sequence thing - going for the sprawling shopping center before doing the lifestyle part?

[rcjunkie]

Does it really matter what and when they build it. No matter what is there, some will never be happy and complain about everything.

Some bitch to change things, others bitch to bitch!!

[ChargerAg]

I think the main thing is they let moore steal all the business. Put the Warren in UNP and it would have been a totally different show.

I am also not sure how it is so difficult to walk anywhere. Even to walk from Target to PeiWei is a little tricky.

Where are the brick arches that are supposed to great us when we enter UNP?

[Questor]

Also, although I generally like the idea of improving downtowns and not creating big new highway developments, we have to be realistic. The Norman downtown area doesn't have the demographics to support something like UNP. UNP doesn't even have the demographics to support UNP. It all has to rely on passers-by. That's the society we live in today. I think you can get there with downtown Norman, but I think you're talking about a multi-generational time commitment to do it, whereas you can throw just about anything up along a highway and have some degree of success. It's a sad fact, but that's the way it is. With respect to downtown Norman should we try to make the improvements being talked about here? Sure. Do I have any confidence our current city government could come up with multi-decade plans to do it, when I have no confidence in the multi-year development that was UNP? Nope.

For the record I still think downtown OKC could pull it off, but that is because they are sort of a highway nexus. I think in time you could do away with the highways, or the need to survive off of them, if enough people moved down there, but again I think that would be a multi-generational timeline. I am not sure that Norman could be so lucky. They need a niche, and given the city's demos that niche is very likely mass transit, but again I don't see Norman doing a good job, or any job at all, with respect to planning anything like that out.

[Spartan]

Does it really matter what and when they build it.

Some bitch to change things, others bitch to bitch!!

That's you rcjunkie. And yes, it does matter what is built. It always does, just as you always say it doesn't matter what gets built.

Other than that I second questor's posts. All of them.

[Questor]

I think there are a few problems, not just one big one. I think they skimped on the construction; I'm not sure if that was because of the economic downturn, or if it was simply people here just don't know any better. I'm sure the thing was built 'above OK standards,' but that is not saying much. The whole thing looks very pre-fabricated... like what we have are a bunch of cement boxes with fake bricks glued on to the front of them. Which is essentially what it is, and is the way most development is these days, but there's just something about how it looks... the materials... it's hard to quantify, but it doesn't strike me as high-end. From the beginning they talked about creating a sense of place, a place that would be turned-in on itself and not really have a backside to it, a place that would have a lot of walking to it. They showed us pictures of the development in Phoenix that is a pure walking experience with no parking lots to be found in the photo. What we got are a bunch of typical store-front boxes, with a definitive backside facing I-35, and a sea of parking out in front. There are sidewalks in front of the buildings I suppose, but they are disjointed and disappear completely when they intersect with a thoroughfare.

I look at the place and wonder, what on earth was the builder thinking... were they trying to build a walkable town center, or were they trying to build highway frontage? It seems to me like they tried to do both... and ended up failing at both. The thing spans I-35, but it doesn't face the highway. Until recently there wasn't even good signage facing outwards so that driver-by's had any idea of what the thing was. On the flip side, the front is clearly built for drive-up parking. It fails at both... accomplishing neither. None of the higher-end appointments are present in UNP. It is arguable that the changing elevation of the storefronts is a high end appointment. We were promised a sense of place and unique stores... but literally everything in the place, except for Pei Wei and Petco, are present just up the road on 19th Street in Moore. Both of those stores are available at countless locations around the metro. I think the generic stores and the generic architecture, not good at any purpose, were mistakes.

I think the biggest mistake was not being more accommodating to the Warren Theater. If the rumors on this board are correct, they approached Norman first, but for various reasons Norman did not play ball. This astounds me considering from day one the Transcript articles made it clear that the Council understood that it was in competition with Moore, that they actually had better demographics thanks to being located so closely to OKC, and that the moment they woke up and realized it Norman was going to have problems with UNP. Norman should have been more proactive. If the rumors of Norman apathy towards Warren aren't true, then the issue was likely the complex movie rights/region deals that theaters do and Hollywood must have had some sort of lock on the rights. But if that was the case then it was that way from day one... so then why was a theater part of the initial pitch for UNP? Did the development group not know their business, or were they pulling a fast one?

When it became clear that the sleeping giant of Moore had awakened, why didn't Norman react at all to that? Why didn't they change their game plan and start incentivizing like crazy? Perhaps they did change their game plan as a result... maybe they decidedly went down-scale... but if so they didn't let voters know that ahead of time, and it is arguable that this was not the best decision they could have made given a multitude of ways to go.

Maybe that is the big issue... a failure to adapt. They lost the movie theater, and they never found something to replace it in their entertainment district. D&B just opened here in OKC... did they try to go after them? What was the response? What other entertainment venues did they pursue, or did they get locked into the mindset of looking at theaters only? Why would you do that? Another issue is the concept itself. If the developers are telling you the economy can no longer support the lifestyle center concept, as they did in the late 2000s, then why not switch gears and try to attract an outlet mall? Honestly most people in OKC have no idea what the difference is between an outlet and a standard mall... most who do probably don't care... it's what the outlet mall out in Yukon is so popular. They may see "Sak's Off Fifth" but all they hear/remember is Sak's, a prestigious store that we didn't use to have here. It markets itself. If the UNP leadership was having problems attracting anything here, then why not shift gears and go after outlet malls? Clearly the one in Yukon has been extremely successful. People come from hundreds of miles away to go to it.

I guess my latest rant can be summed up in one word: adaptability, or a complete lack of it. Yes the economy changed and certain realities shifted that "no one" could foresee. But as is always the case in business... that happens... and those who survive are those who adapt. I guess UNP did adapt and is surviving... but it is not really thriving. Not like the outlet mall, and not even like 19th Street which seems to have achieved a critical mass now.

[venture]

Agree it is just a failure of the City of Norman to think big and be competitive. Questor is pretty nailing it. The Lifestyle center excuses are just that...excuses. It is a developer that promised big to get what they wanted and now doesn't want to deliver. The City continues to bow down and give the developer what he wants. At this point the damage is already done when it comes to the West side of 24th NW in any hopes of walkable setup. It will be one large strip mall and whats about it. So things must be made up on the East side of 24th NW.

While probably a bit extreme, I still think the city/developers need to work with GGP to repurpose the land Sooner Mall is on and relocate the stores. If the true goal is to create foot traffic and a community feel, what better way than to take the lifestyle center (or whatever name they want to call it now) concept and establish it north of Embassy Suites. The concentration and selection of stores would be an absolute boom to that area (http://www.soonermall.com/directory) and not to mention it would be in a area that could actually handle the traffic a bit better.

We could then take the old Sooner Mall property, tear down the mall, and redevelop it as a business park/housing or other non-retail use. The other target area would be the Hollywood theatre and work with them to build a new upscale replacement in UNP. If they are willing to play, then work with AMC or someone else. Of course the problem is Warren and the juggernaut that it is. Norman just failed miserably in not landing it and letting Moore run away with it. Granted Wichita is able to handle 2-3 theaters by them, I'm not sure they could make a Norman and Moore location work...especially with the seasonality of Norman's population. Though maybe a smaller scale model?

It is all a mess though at this point. The question comes up soon...does Rosenthal get held responsible for the failure to lead or does she get a rubber stamp re-election?

[Dubya61]

Agree it is just a failure of the City of Norman to think big and be competitive. Questor is pretty nailing it. The Lifestyle center excuses are just that...excuses.

While probably a bit extreme, I still think the city/developers need to work with GGP to repurpose the land Sooner Mall is on and relocate the stores. If the true goal is to create foot traffic and a community feel, what better way than to take the lifestyle center (or whatever name they want to call it now) concept and establish it north of Embassy Suites. The concentration and selection of stores would be an absolute boom to that area (http://www.soonermall.com/directory) and not to mention it would be in a area that could actually handle the traffic a bit better.

We could then take the old Sooner Mall property, tear down the mall, and redevelop it as a business park/housing or other non-retail use. The other target area would be the Hollywood theatre and work with them to build a new upscale replacement in UNP. If they are willing to play, then work with AMC or someone else. Of course the problem is Warren and the juggernaut that it is. Norman just failed miserably in not landing it and letting Moore run away with it. Granted Wichita is able to handle 2-3 theaters by them, I'm not sure they could make a Norman and Moore location work...especially with the seasonality of Norman's population. Though maybe a smaller scale model?

It is all a mess though at this point. The question comes up soon...does Rosenthal get held responsible for the failure to lead or does she get a rubber stamp re-election?

Like this! Why can't a city think big and act big. Norman should not be a shrinking violet at the whims of an easy way out.

[Questor]

It is all a mess though at this point. The question comes up soon...does Rosenthal get held responsible for the failure to lead or does she get a rubber stamp re-election?

First I want to say I like the ideas you brought forth in your post. Creating the lifestyle center that we were promised across the street from the current development, and trying to relocate some existing businesses to it are an interesting idea that could cause a lot of 'synergy' to use a buzz word. On the flip side I would hate to see Sooner Mall to bite the dust as it really is quite a lovely mall. I suppose all developments in this state have a 'lifespan' though, and maybe it would be better to start thinking about what comes next for Sooner Mall rather than waiting for the bitter end.

Now about the quoted text above... speaking only for myself I do intend to vote against Rosenthal if she comes up for re-election. But you know the person I really hold responsible is the City Manager. It's his full-time, professional job to think about everything we have been talking about here, and as far as I can tell, just by looking at our recent developments, he is not someone I want to see continue in that position. I'm just tired of the 'good enough' attitude that seems to permeate Norman. I will no longer vote for any councilor who expresses confidence in City Manager Steve Lewis.

[Just the facts]

A slowing economy actually benefits a walkable lifestyle center with on-site residential.

Questor - I read every word you wrote and seems to be right on spot. I used to take offense to the 'okie don't know any better' but not anymore. A lot of them don't. Sadly, area developers don't know any better either so they just keep producing the same crap everytime. If you look at some old building you will see that the detail is on the upclose human scale. The closer you are to the building the more detail and uniqueness you can see. Modern developments all use manufactured materials so there is no variation at the human scale.

[Questor]

A slowing economy actually benefits a walkable lifestyle center with on-site residential.

Questor - I read every word you wrote and seems to be right on spot. I used to take offense to the 'okie don't know any better' but not anymore. A lot of them don't. Sadly, area developers don't know any better either so they just keep producing the same crap everytime. If you look at some old building you will see that the detail is on the upclose human scale. The closer you are to the building the more detail and uniqueness you can see. Modern developments all use manufactured materials so there is no variation at the human scale.

I used to never say things like that, but I guess I view it kind of like "talking about mom" now. The family can talk about mom, but if you're not family, you don't get to talk about my mom.... We're all OK family here and just wanting to make it a better place. :-)

[venture]

Perhaps a change to the city's charter needs to happen to eliminate the City Manager form of government and go to a Strong Mayor form? That way we the voters can have direct say on who essentially holds most of the power in the city. If the mayor screws up, they are out on their ear. If they do a good job, enjoy the next 4 years.

[ljbab728]

Perhaps a change to the city's charter needs to happen to eliminate the City Manager form of government and go to a Strong Mayor form? That way we the voters can have direct say on who essentially holds most of the power in the city. If the mayor screws up, they are out on their ear. If they do a good job, enjoy the next 4 years.

Venture, the city manager system has worked well for OKC and the strong mayor system not so well for Tulsa.

[venture]

Venture, the city manager system has worked well for OKC and the strong mayor system not so well for Tulsa.

Like Kevin stated, it is all about who you get in. My home town is a strong major system. The first mayor elected under it was amazing and did a ton to revitalize a town in desperate need. Since then have been nothing but weak yes men. However if our problem is going to be the City Manager position, then they need to be accountable to the voters.

[ljbab728]

Like Kevin stated, it is all about who you get in. My home town is a strong major system. The first mayor elected under it was amazing and did a ton to revitalize a town in desperate need. Since then have been nothing but weak yes men. However if our problem is going to be the City Manager position, then they need to be accountable to the voters.

Isn't the City Manager hired by the city council which is elected by the voters? That certainly gives a chain of accountability.

[venture]

Isn't the City Manager hired by the city council which is elected by the voters? That certainly gives a chain of accountability.

Oh i'm not disagreeing with you there, but maybe more direct insight is needed. Since the mayor and council don't always seems to listen to what the voters want.

[Just the facts]

Downing 2000 calories from a car seat. How could that possibly be bad for you? It is a good thing everyone has to have health insurance now because these people would never be able to afford it on their own.