OKC Retail Update

[RadicalModerate]

There are places with weather worse than OKC's that have successful lifestyle centers: Phoenix and Minneapolis come immediately to mind. It seems that many Oklahomans have a strange aversion to doing anything outdoors other than watching/playing sports or hunting/fishing.

So . . . Would successful Minneapolis/(St. Paul) lifestyle centers include Minnehaha Falls Park and Swede Hollow Park? (just a simple paradigm check . . . =)

[mcca7596]

So . . . Would successful Minneapolis/(St. Paul) lifestyle centers include Minnehaha Falls Park and Swede Hollow Park? (just a simple paradigm check . . . =)

If I'm following your cryptic question with correct (your intended) logic, I would say yes, they are successful "lifestyle" centers. They are successful in the same way that successful "lifestyle" centers in OKC include the Boathouse district, Lake Hefner, and any place in the city where OKC culture can be experienced through outdoor activities, thus providing the participant a hands-on primer on the "lifestyle" of a particular milieu.

Did I shift my paradigm to an acceptable standard based on your cultural and personal definitions of success? :-)

[mcca7596]

(or is that really a photo from an Arkansas location . . ? they all look the same . . .)

Au contraire, have not you seen the urban examples provided on this board?

Additionally, a personal observation that I view as sad (considering the respective climates), Wal-Marts here in the Valley of the Sun, and indeed all retail establishments, have far greater levels of landscaping (and to a lesser extent, architectural variety) than stores in Oklahoma.

*Off topic*:

(The tree cover/height of newly planted trees really is curious to me; I mean how can Palo Verdes, Mesquites and Palms all be initially planted with greater height than anything in Oklahoma? It seems there are always a few obligatory sticks that are stuck around the periphery of new stores there. The newer Targets in Moore and Yukon come to mind... Just spend the money and landscape with more mature trees to begin with! The only place I can recall doing it right is the Myriad Gardens during the remodel. As a concession, I realize the argument could be made that there is a more pressing need for shade to provided here in the Phoenix area, but it appears that Oklahoma's summers are not too far off from us based on the last couple of years lol)

[bchris02]

I want to say first, that I think the reason OKC doesn't have lifestyle centers is not because people are "wusses" and afraid of the weather but because of the economic crash in 2008. Lifestyle centers were a mid-late 2000s fad and many of them were being built, breaking ground, or proposed at the time of the crash. If I remember correctly, there were several lifestyle center projects in the works that either got scaled down to nothing or scrapped completely when the economy tanked. OKC simply got screwed by bad timing. This happened all over the nation and not just in OKC. Many of the traditional retailers that open in lifestyle centers have not been in expansion mode since 2008, so I am sure that has something to do with it as well. The Outlet Shops are outdoors and have been a wild success so that shows the concept can work here. I would like to see a strong lifestyle center built in OKC as long as it doesn't come at the cost of the existing malls. It is also essential that when something does get built, its not just for the sake of it and that tenants are actually lined up to move in upon opening.

Little Rock built what was going to be a massive one called "Shackleford Crossing" before the crash and it has ended up a complete disaster. Most prospective tenants pulled out when the economy tanked and much of it currently still sits empty. The space that would originally have an upscale department store now has a Super Walmart and a few other big box stores have been built on the perimeter but the project as a whole has been one of the worst retail real-estate blunders I've seen. When one is built in OKC, it needs to be done right.

[bluedogok]

Au contraire, have not you seen the urban examples provided on this board?

Additionally, a personal observation that I view as sad (considering the respective climates), Wal-Marts here in the Valley of the Sun, and indeed all retail establishments, have far greater levels of landscaping (and to a lesser extent, architectural variety) than stores in Oklahoma.

*Off topic*:

(The tree cover/height of newly planted trees really is curious to me; I mean how can Palo Verdes, Mesquites and Palms all be initially planted with greater height than anything in Oklahoma? It seems there are always a few obligatory sticks that are stuck around the periphery of new stores there. The newer Targets in Moore and Yukon come to mind... Just spend the money and landscape with more mature trees to begin with! The only place I can recall doing it right is the Myriad Gardens during the remodel. As a concession, I realize the argument could be made that there is a more pressing need for shade to provided here in the Phoenix area, but it appears that Oklahoma's summers are not too far off from us based on the last couple of years lol)

Developers are going to do the bare minimum they have to in order to satisfy the city and financiers. Development standards vary greatly.

[Spartan]

I would like to see a lifestyle center built but not at the cost of the remaining indoor malls. Dead malls are a blight and not something any city should hope for.

I've already said there is little hope for Crossroads are a regular mall and that a lifestyle center should be built on the Southside as meaningful replacement.

Plus, I know lifestyle centers are trendy, but I don't really see the appeal in a climate such as OKC's with cold winters and hot summers. It makes perfect sense in SoCal but the indoor mall more convenient in colder climates despite what the trends say. However, a nice lifestyle center would be good for the city nonetheless.

Dead malls happen. Things surrounded by parking tend to deteriorate and aren't worth the cost of renovating. To land new retail, you need new development. You can't do it without the new development.

Cleveland's upscale retail is mostly all lifestyle center. As a result of so many lifestyle center developments, for example, there are 5 H&Ms in the metro. Granted, two are in traditional malls that still make sense because they were built in very upscale suburbs at the end of the indoor mall craze in the 90s..like Beachwood.

OKC will not grow its retail offerings much more without a legitimate lifestyle center. I'm fairly convinced that Sooner Mall is preventing one in Norman, the 19th Street boom is preventing one on the south side, and Quail Springs Mall prevented Tuscana. Some of this inferior development is going to have to fall in order to give way to superior development and superior retailers.

[bchris02]

Dead malls happen. Things surrounded by parking tend to deteriorate and aren't worth the cost of renovating. To land new retail, you need new development. You can't do it without the new development.

Cleveland's upscale retail is mostly all lifestyle center. As a result of so many lifestyle center developments, for example, there are 5 H&Ms in the metro. Granted, two are in traditional malls that still make sense because they were built in very upscale suburbs at the end of the indoor mall craze in the 90s..like Beachwood.

OKC will not grow its retail offerings much more without a legitimate lifestyle center. I'm fairly convinced that Sooner Mall is preventing one in Norman, the 19th Street boom is preventing one on the south side, and Quail Springs Mall prevented Tuscana. Some of this inferior development is going to have to fall in order to give way to superior development and superior retailers.

I definitely see your point here. The truth is OKC is really incredibly lacking in retail options for its size and without a lifestyle center being built there is little chance at that changing. OKC needs to catch up to Tulsa let alone other cities of 1.3 million. The thing is our malls are very well located in that they are easily accessible from most of the high income locations in the metro, minus the Southside, so Quail Springs would need to slide into irrelevancy before something major would be announced along Memorial. There is however a lot of money in west Moore and SW OKC which is why I think that would be the perfect place for a lifestyle center. There is an upscale retail hole down there that is due to be filled. Tulsa can support two indoor malls and a lifestyle center so OKC should be able to if its in the right location. I think a lifestyle center anchored by H&M and Belk would be perfect. Nordstrom probably isn't happening in OKC no matter what developments are proposed.

[ljbab728]

In Real Estate, it is all about location, location, location........I just do not see this dinosaur of a mall being converted into a Great Wolf venue unless private developers or the city invests millions and millions in cleaning up that area. If their goal is to attract tourist and vacationers, then they are going to have to seriously clean up this area. It is quite scary.

I understand what you're trying to say but the area immediately around here is hardly "quite scary". I feel more safe there than when at Penn Square where I am always watching my surroundings when going to and from the parking lots.

[betts]

I think that, by and large, lifestyle centers are overrated. I do prefer an open air mall to the enclosed ones we have here, and fondly remember Penn Square being open right after we moved here however.

[adaniel]

I think that, by and large, lifestyle centers are overrated. I do prefer an open air mall to the enclosed ones we have here, and fondly remember Penn Square being open right after we moved here however.

Second. I find most of them to be rather kitschy and "disneyesque"

Its a bit short sighted to assume that the consumer and economic trends that are giving shopping malls and retail strip centers so much trouble (growth of online retailers, curtailing of consumer credit, oversupply of commercial RE, etc.) will somehow skip over lifestyle centers. Frankly, they already are.

OKC probably missed the boat on the big lifestyle centers, but there is probably room for something small and low key, like The Boulevard in St. Louis (which has only 25 stores).

At the end of the day, however, retailers are going to pick new locations based on factors they've been using for the past few decades. Demographics, incomes, sales of other competitors, etc. Around here, that ideal area will continue to be in and around Penn Square. I actually think the mall is on a good trajectory in terms of getting nicer stores and the renovation to it could be a game changer.

[Spartan]

I think some developers thought the lifestyle center concept was so infallible it could be a success anywhere. Location definitely still matters.

But to anyone who says lifestyle centers are overrated... Then what should we keep building, more 19th Street sprawl? More Classen Curves? The ineptitude of OKC's retail development is the big thing that holds retail back.

[bchris02]

Second. I find most of them to be rather kitschy and "disneyesque"

Its a bit short sighted to assume that the consumer and economic trends that are giving shopping malls and retail strip centers so much trouble (growth of online retailers, curtailing of consumer credit, oversupply of commercial RE, etc.) will somehow skip over lifestyle centers. Frankly, they already are.

OKC probably missed the boat on the big lifestyle centers, but there is probably room for something small and low key, like The Boulevard in St. Louis (which has only 25 stores).

At the end of the day, however, retailers are going to pick new locations based on factors they've been using for the past few decades. Demographics, incomes, sales of other competitors, etc. Around here, that ideal area will continue to be in and around Penn Square. I actually think the mall is on a good trajectory in terms of getting nicer stores and the renovation to it could be a game changer.

Lifestyle centers generally consist of mostly clothing stores and specialty stores as well as restaurants, all of which I don't believe will ever be replaced by online retail. Electronics stores and bookstores are the most at risk.

I would like to see Penn Square step up a notch. There are still plenty of low-end stores in the mall like Payless that could be replaced by more upscale stores. I'm not sure how many people would go to Penn Square to shop at Payless when there are free standing locations all over the metro.

I think some developers thought the lifestyle center concept was so infallible it could be a success anywhere. Location definitely still matters.

But to anyone who says lifestyle centers are overrated... Then what should we keep building, more 19th Street sprawl? More Classen Curves? The ineptitude of OKC's retail development is the big thing that holds retail back.

Agreed. Classen Curve was such a waste of an opportunity. I agree OKC has missed the boat on the super-regional lifestyle centers, but something like Midtowne Little Rock or Promenade at Chenal, also in Little Rock, would work well in OKC and I believe could still be built.

Lifestyle Center to Oklahoma City... Why Not? - Price Edwards & Company - Price Edwards & Company

Bottom line is OKC gets hurt by the fact high-income neighborhoods are more scattered throughout the metro than in most cities. The typical (Wikipedia) formula most market "experts" use to select locations doesn't work on OKC so it gets passed up.

[zookeeper]

Bottom line is OKC gets hurt by the fact high-income neighborhoods are more scattered throughout the metro than in most cities.

I agree with this. That's one reason Penn Square is such a huge success. If you were looking for a nice spot in the city to plant a mall today, you'd be hard pressed to find a better location. 1. Nichols Hills to the north 2. Bell Isle to the west 3. On the Northwest Expressway 4. An on-ramp to a highway that takes you to all parts north and south, east and west is practically in your parking lot.

I'm on board the lifestyle center train, but your point about OKC income being spread out sure hinders finding the right spot. Did you know Penn Square used to be an outdoor shopping mall? Only one level, in the square there were activities going on like music, Santa at Christmas, photo booths, it was always a busy place.

[adaniel]

But to anyone who says lifestyle centers are overrated... Then what should we keep building, more 19th Street sprawl? More Classen Curves? The ineptitude of OKC's retail development is the big thing that holds retail back.

We should build more quality developments in OKC so they don't look like crap in 20 years, but retail developments factor low in when a company decides to open a new location. Demographics and disposable income from potential customers will always rank first for a business, and they will choose whatever location maximizes that, be it a mall, lifestyle center, or strip center.

There's tons of very nice shopping centers in Dallas; however, most upscale expanding retailers will locate in or near Northpark or the Galleria. Not that they're anything special architecturally--Northpark is actually quite ugly IMO--but because they have the best combination of affluent potential customers and a proven track record of per square foot sales.

Bottom line is OKC gets hurt by the fact high-income neighborhoods are more scattered throughout the metro than in most cities. The typical (Wikipedia) formula most market "experts" use to select locations doesn't work on OKC so it gets passed up.

Yep. Tulsa city proper's median household income is about 3K lower than OKC, but because its very segregated most of its wealthy are concentrated in a long ribbon roughly between the Arkansas River and BA Expwy/Yale Ave. Fortunately because OKC has now lured (or bribed) a lot of new retailers to this market in the past 3 years and they have have been largely successful, retailers are starting to take notice.

[mcca7596]

Bottom line is OKC gets hurt by the fact high-income neighborhoods are more scattered throughout the metro than in most cities. The typical (Wikipedia) formula most market "experts" use to select locations doesn't work on OKC so it gets passed up.

You're right to a certain extent I believe, but I have to once again reference the Phoenix area as an area that has many different pockets of high income (it's not just Scottsdale lol) and the Valley's retail offerings are average to above average.

[kevinpate]

There are places with weather worse than OKC's that have successful lifestyle centers: Phoenix and Minneapolis come immediately to mind. It seems that many Oklahomans have a strange aversion to doing anything outdoors other than watching/playing sports or hunting/fishing.

It's a phobia. Lots of Okies have a huge fear of running into semi-crazed, even full on crazed urbanists who will want them to ride bikes to get their milk, knock holes into city buildings so there can be a CVS, even though they'll pass by six on their way home, and all sorts of odd stuff. Better to stay inside until they find a cure.
(all jk side, hope you enjoyed your trip)

[Just the facts]

The only difference between a life-style center and a regular shopping center is the orientation of the parking lots and front doors. One is clearly more walkable than the other but you have to drive to both of them. I prefer building on the existing grid. A lot of dead mall rehabs build great internal walkability, but totally ignore the existing city streets on the edge of the property.

[Spartan]

I agree with this. That's one reason Penn Square is such a huge success. If you were looking for a nice spot in the city to plant a mall today, you'd be hard pressed to find a better location. 1. Nichols Hills to the north 2. Bell Isle to the west 3. On the Northwest Expressway 4. An on-ramp to a highway that takes you to all parts north and south, east and west is practically in your parking lot.

I'm on board the lifestyle center train, but your point about OKC income being spread out sure hinders finding the right spot. Did you know Penn Square used to be an outdoor shopping mall? Only one level, in the square there were activities going on like music, Santa at Christmas, photo booths, it was always a busy place.

The right location, I think, is I-240..as a part of the 240 corridor redevelopment project. The only other location that works for the metro's highest income zip code might be something along SW 134th, but I question if that road provides good enough access to other points in the metro.

I also think the north side of downtown is an interesting opportunity for retail. Between downtown and I-44 has seen a remarkable increase in higher incomes. Perhaps something like The Rise.

[bluedogok]

I think that, by and large, lifestyle centers are overrated. I do prefer an open air mall to the enclosed ones we have here, and fondly remember Penn Square being open right after we moved here however.

Many of the lifestyle centers are poorly laid out and some are really nothing more than big box malls. To me the first phase of The Domain was fine until you got to the anchors at the ends (Neiman-Marcus/Macy's) which completely killed any connectivity between phases. You have Macy's at one end and no good pedestrian path to the Phase II portion and it has a Dick's blocking the end of that strip with a large surface parking lot. Pedestrian access is horrible from the major streets/bus stops. I have found that most seem to be done in this manner and I don't really understand why, there are much better ways to site plan them.

[ljbab728]

Another update.

Price Edwards & Co. reports on retail property in Oklahoma City | NewsOK.com

[mcca7596]

Thanks ljbab728, and apparently Costco is pretty close to building a store in Tulsa (with OKC locations to follow in the subsequent years if the trend holds, hopefully?):

Costco stays tight-lipped on its plans for Oklahoma locations | NewsOK.com

[bchris02]

Thanks ljbab728, and apparently Costco is pretty close to building a store in Tulsa (with OKC locations to follow in the subsequent years if the trend holds, hopefully?):

Costco stays tight-lipped on its plans for Oklahoma locations | NewsOK.com

I always wonder why Tulsa is so much more attractive for retailers than OKC despite its smaller size. It's pretty much always Tulsa first, no matter what. Does anybody think it has anything to do with Wal-Mart's dominance here?

[Snowman]

I always wonder why Tulsa is so much more attractive for retailers than OKC despite its smaller size. It's pretty much always Tulsa first, no matter what. Does anybody think it has anything to do with Wal-Mart's dominance here?

While I am not sure if it is true for all of them, the ones I have seen public information for both OKC and Tulsa location being subsidized, the ones in Tulsa had a larger subsidy.

[Plutonic Panda]

I always wonder why Tulsa is so much more attractive for retailers than OKC despite its smaller size. It's pretty much always Tulsa first, no matter what. Does anybody think it has anything to do with Wal-Mart's dominance here?

Even if this is entirely true, I doubt that will be story of much longer.

[bchris02]

Even if this is entirely true, I doubt that will be story of much longer.

I hope so. Retail is one area OKC is still indisputably inferior to its peer cities in my opinion.

Having not spent much time in Tulsa, is their retail as spread out as OKC's or do they have more of a single concentrated area where most retailers locate?

Arkansas has a similar trend in that many national retailers choose Fayetteville-Springdale-Rogers for their first locations in the state rather than the much larger Little Rock. The main reason for that is retail in Little Rock is very spread out vs Northwest Arkansas has a single focal point around Pinnacle Hills lifestyle center where retailers locate.