OU Projects

[Geographer]

Increasing the value of the land is about the only way higher density will occur on any scale.
The value of the land would be increased by decongesting the area via building several streets with more capacity and with commuter rail.
This would make the area a more realistic place to live for more people who have higher incomes.

There are definitely more ways to raise value of land than by "decongesting" (and I don't believe this area is congested at all) areas and commuter rail.

I will definitely say that the streets surrounding campus can hold enough capacity...capacity isn't an issue. Those roads function fine (they'd function better and more efficiently by replacing stoplights with roundabouts, but that's another story). Redoing some major street-scapes along lindsey, boyd, university, asp (north of campus corner) would definitely help land values though. However, Land Value in that area is already high because of the proximity to the university...and there's already a lot of money living around campus...just look at some of the houses just west of campus, some streets northwest of campus, little neighborhood off to the east of campus (east of classen and south of boyd). There's money living around campus, that's not a problem.

I'll agree that acquiring enough property is an issue for a medium-rise mixed use-type development.

[venture]

There are definitely more ways to raise value of land than by "decongesting" areas and commuter rail.

I will definitely say that the streets surrounding campus can hold enough capacity...capacity isn't an issue. Those roads function fine (they'd function better and more efficiently by replacing stoplights with roundabouts, but that's another story). Redoing some major street-scapes along lindsey, boyd, university, asp (north of campus corner) would definitely help land values though. However, Land Value in that area is already high because of the proximity to the university...and there's already a lot of money living around campus...just look at some of the houses just west of campus, some streets northwest of campus, little neighborhood off to the east of campus (east of classen and south of boyd). There's money living around campus, that's not a problem.

I'll agree that acquiring enough property is an issue for a medium-rise mixed use-type development.

Trey I agree with you. I cannot fathom the reasoning why we would even entertain adding more streets and such to an area that would be ripe for higher density developments. Adding more streets and such is only gong to serve the commuter/suburbia crowd that has no intention of living in a higher density area. Norman has plenty of areas where suburbanites can go and live with out destroying the quality of life that some of these older neighborhoods provide. If we can couple all of this with a commute rail station, completely with more high density development like what Kerry has proposed in the past, on Boyd or Lindsey then it is even better.

More streets is not going to be an answer. There are plenty of them.

[Geographer]

Trey I agree with you. I cannot fathom the reasoning why we would even entertain adding more streets and such to an area that would be ripe for higher density developments. Adding more streets and such is only gong to serve the commuter/suburbia crowd that has no intention of living in a higher density area. Norman has plenty of areas where suburbanites can go and live with out destroying the quality of life that some of these older neighborhoods provide. If we can couple all of this with a commute rail station, completely with more high density development like what Kerry has proposed in the past, on Boyd or Lindsey then it is even better.

More streets is not going to be an answer. There are plenty of them.

The street connectivity west of campus (to berry) and north of campus (all the up to main and beyond) is fantastic! There's never any traffic on those streets because there are multiple streets with smaller blocks and they all connect and don't dead end. What a novel idea eh? Make streets connect and you don't have congestion of people forced to take one or two roads to get somewhere. This is the problem you see on Lindsey west of berry. Many of the neighborhood streets leading from campus over towards berry dead end before they get to berry...thus people are forced to get onto Lindsey, creating traffic. Too bad they don't connect to berry and beyond.

Back to what we were talking about.....the street connectivity around campus is fantastic and definitely provides the bones for future mid-level development around campus (similar in form to headington hall).

[ou48A]

There are definitely more ways to raise value of land than by "decongesting" (and I don't believe this area is congested at all) areas and commuter rail.

I will definitely say that the streets surrounding campus can hold enough capacity...capacity isn't an issue. Those roads function fine (they'd function better and more efficiently by replacing stoplights with roundabouts, but that's another story). Redoing some major street-scapes along lindsey, boyd, university, asp (north of campus corner) would definitely help land values though. However, Land Value in that area is already high because of the proximity to the university...and there's already a lot of money living around campus...just look at some of the houses just west of campus, some streets northwest of campus, little neighborhood off to the east of campus (east of classen and south of boyd). There's money living around campus, that's not a problem.

I'll agree that acquiring enough property is an issue for a medium-rise mixed use-type development.

When it very often takes 20 to 30 minutes to drive to the major shopping areas on the west side or to the interstate from the neighborhoods around campus its a major deterrent to many who would love to live near campus. Wasting this amount of time just isn't a option for more than a few folks who have more than enough money to live any place they would like. Eliminating this area as a option to live in for many professionals holds prices down and slows redevelopment.

Most of the city streets near campus are of antiquated design, have very poor drainage and are in various states of crumbling condition and by any reasonable assessment they do not come even remotely close to meting the needed capacity. If they haven't already they will be hindering the growth and development of OU and nearby areas. I know many people who avoid the campus areas just based on the congestion, so it is impacting area business sales to some extent.

When compared to other major university’s OU has scored poor marks for its access.

[Geographer]

When it very often takes 20 to 30 minutes to drive to the major shopping areas on the west side or to the interstate from the neighborhoods around campus its a major deterrent to many who would love to live near campus. Wasting this amount of time just isn't a option for more than a few folks who have more than enough money to live any place they would like. Eliminating this area as a option to live in for many professionals holds prices down and slows redevelopment.

Most of the city streets near campus are of antiquated design, have very poor drainage and are in various states of crumbling condition and by any reasonable assessment they do not come even remotely close to meting the needed capacity. If they haven't already they will be hindering the growth and development of OU and nearby areas. I know many people who avoid the campus areas just based on the congestion, so it is impacting area business sales to some extent.

When compared to other major university’s OU has scored poor marks for its access.

So you're saying that no professionals that live near campus? I'll disagree with that, since there are many large homes with large values surrounding many areas of campus.

The only issue you have brought up is connectivity of neighborhood streets to the rest of Norman. That's a problem rooted in the suburban street pattern found in Norman, IE west of berry (if we're talking strictly in the campus area). Like I said in a previous post, the issue is STREET CONNECTIVITY, not the "antiquity of streets" or the size of streets. If you connect your streets better, people have MULTIPLE options of getting around instead of 1 major road, lindsey. That's the root of the problem, street connectivity. The street is plenty big, there's just not enough connected through streets. Connected Streets combined with Lindsey's street lights are the problem...the latter can be fixed with roundabouts at major intersections, the former will be harder to solve.

But let's be sure and understand the root problem, it isn't capacity......it's connectivity.

Look at the picture I've attached, you can see that there are only two streets that connect ALL the way through, consistently, from 24th SW to campus. Street connectivity is Norman's biggest problem, linking western shopping/interstate to campus. norman.JPG

[ou48A]

So you're saying that no professionals that live near campus? I'll disagree with that, since there are many large homes with large values surrounding many areas of campus.

Where did I say that no professionals live near OU....? Clearly they do but a lot more would live near OU if they could..... Right now it takes way to much time daily for a high number of higher income people to live their and commute to a job. Its not a realistic option for many. But make it more accessible and more people will find it more desirable..... the property values will increases to a point that we will see far more redevelopment with some of being high density.

[Geographer]

Where did I say that no professionals live near OU....? Clearly they do but a lot more would live near OU if they could..... Right now it takes way to much time daily for a high number of higher income people to live their and commute to a job. Its not a realistic option for many. But make it more accessible and more people will find it more desirable..... the property values will increases to a point that we will see far more redevelopment with some of being high density.

Street connectivity and flow along lindsey (without widening) are the keys to all of those

I will say though that land values are already pretty high...look at zillow and zoom in on the neighborhood just west of campus....not unlike home values you find in some of the other neighborhoods west of the interstate.

[venture]

So you're saying that no professionals that live near campus? I'll disagree with that, since there are many large homes with large values surrounding many areas of campus.

The only issue you have brought up is connectivity of neighborhood streets to the rest of Norman. That's a problem rooted in the suburban street pattern found in Norman, IE west of berry (if we're talking strictly in the campus area). Like I said in a previous post, the issue is STREET CONNECTIVITY, not the "antiquity of streets" or the size of streets. If you connect your streets better, people have MULTIPLE options of getting around instead of 1 major road, lindsey. That's the root of the problem, street connectivity. The street is plenty big, there's just not enough connected through streets. Connected Streets combined with Lindsey's street lights are the problem...the latter can be fixed with roundabouts at major intersections, the former will be harder to solve.

But let's be sure and understand the root problem, it isn't capacity......it's connectivity.

Look at the picture I've attached, you can see that there are only two streets that connect ALL the way through, consistently, from 24th SW to campus. Street connectivity is Norman's biggest problem, linking western shopping/interstate to campus. norman.JPG

I get what you are saying here. I use to live at Elmwood and Chautauqua. I would have loved for Flood to go all the way through, but Hoover and Elmwood streets in that area run East-West whereas everything else is North-South. However, all the years I lived over there, it never too me more than 10 minutes to get to the interstate. Does it back up at peak times during the day? Indeed. You plan around that just like you do rush hour in OKC.

As far as people with money living near Campus in the Central Norman area...the comment made was just done out of pure ignorance to the houses in that area. Thankfully Zillow is available to show what the approximate values are there. IN the area from Berry to Pickard, to the south of Lindsey, those houses range from $250K up to $916K...with a large number in the 400-500K range. Moving east of there towards campus you have several 300-500K houses mixed in with the older 100-200K homes. Campus Corner area you are looking at prices from 194K to 316K on a few streets dropping to the typically 100-200K homes as you move east of there.

Doesn't really seem like people are eliminating this area as a place to live. Since I first moved to the area many years ago, there have been numerous high dollar homes built. Home values in that area have gone up pretty significantly over the years. When I first moved in I bought my house there for around $60K...that house sold last year for $125K. Not too shabby of an increase IMO.

[ou48A]

The only issue you have brought up is connectivity of neighborhood streets to the rest of Norman. That's a problem rooted in the suburban street pattern found in Norman, IE west of berry (if we're talking strictly in the campus area). Like I said in a previous post, the issue is STREET CONNECTIVITY, not the "antiquity of streets" or the size of streets. If you connect your streets better, people have MULTIPLE options of getting around instead of 1 major road, lindsey. That's the root of the problem, street connectivity. The street is plenty big, there's just not enough connected through streets. Connected Streets combined with Lindsey's street lights are the problem...the latter can be fixed with roundabouts at major intersections, the former will be harder to solve.

But let's be sure and understand the root problem, it isn't capacity......it's connectivity.

Look at the picture I've attached, you can see that there are only two streets that connect ALL the way through, consistently, from 24th SW to campus. Street connectivity is Norman's biggest problem, linking western shopping/interstate to campus. norman.JPG

Better street connectivity such as you suggest would help but its far from the only solution. Its like a few drops in the bucket compared to what's really needed..... and to do what you suggest you would need to demolish several homes and that's been something that a small but vocal minority has opposed for projects that would provide far greater benefit such as adding 4 lanes on Lindsey all the was to campus.
I drove around these neighborhoods just yesterday evening in light rain, these are antiquated streets by and reasonable standard.
It's time to build the Front Street fly over.

[HangryHippo]

Better street connectivity such as you suggest would help but its far from the only solution. Its like a few drops in the bucket compared to what's really needed..... and to do what you suggest you would need to demolish several homes and that's been something that a small but vocal minority has opposed for projects that would provide far greater benefit such as adding 4 lanes on Lindsey all the was to campus.
I drove around these neighborhoods just yesterday evening in light rain, these are antiquated streets by and reasonable standard.
It's time to build the Front Street fly over.

Front Street flyover?

[Geographer]

Better street connectivity such as you suggest would help but its far from the only solution. Its like a few drops in the bucket compared to what's really needed..... and to do what you suggest you would need to demolish several homes and that's been something that a small but vocal minority has opposed for projects that would provide far greater benefit such as adding 4 lanes on Lindsey all the was to campus.
I drove around these neighborhoods just yesterday evening in light rain, these are antiquated streets by and reasonable standard.
It's time to build the Front Street fly over.

I will be greatly disheartened if Lindsey is widened...it's like treating a heart problem with medicine but then right after going out and eating a cheeseburger. It's treating some symptoms but not the root of the problem, or at least not understanding the root of the problem.

[ou48A]

I will be greatly disheartened if Lindsey is widened...it's like treating a heart problem with medicine but then right after going out and eating a cheeseburger. It's treating some symptoms but not the root of the problem, or at least not understanding the root of the problem.

The widening of Lindsey in this area is inevitable. There is absolutely nothing special or sacred about it that can't essentially be recreated and made better for ten's of thousands... People are way to in love with a hand full of trees.... most of which could with a little effort could be transplanted. Take the needed land on the north side of the street and it will have minimal impact.
Lindsey street is scheduled to be widened from Berry westward in a few years.
Its only natural that the vast majority will demand that the rest of Lindsey eventually be widened too.

[HangryHippo]

Before Lindsey is widened in this area, I want to see a Lindsey St. underpass of the railroad tracks just west of Classen.

[ou48A]

Front Street flyover?

The Front Street Fly over was talked about many, many years ago. It was basic an elevated limited access state highway from near the Brooks and Boyd street area that followed the rail road tracks north to connect with Flood Street north of Robinson Street. There are very few homes or buildings in the way.

[ou48A]

Before Lindsey is widened in this area, I want to see a Lindsey St. underpass of the railroad tracks just west of Classen.

I don't disagree, but both are needed.
The state should help Norman and OU by making Lindsey a state highway from I-35 east though campus.

[Geographer]

The widening of Lindsey in this area is inevitable. There is absolutely nothing special or sacred about it that can't essentially be recreated and made better for ten's of thousands... People are way to in love with a hand full of trees.... most of which could with a little effort could be transplanted. Take the needed land on the north side of the street and it will have minimal impact.
Lindsey street is scheduled to be widened from Berry westward in a few years.
Its only natural that the vast majority will demand that the rest of Lindsey eventually be widened too.

LOL. It isn't inevitable. There is absolutely something special about the area west of Berry as well. Great homes, great atmosphere, great transition to campus. I'm not in love with trees, I'm in love with the feel of Lindsey east of Berry. It absolutely can be improved WITHOUT widening. Lindsey street is currently about to undergo a transformation, you're correct...however, did you know that it may not be to the original 4-5 lane road? There are discussions and possible plans-to-be for a complete streetscape project for Lindsey that does not include simply widening the road....I'm telling you, the traffic comes from the constant stop/go of the street lights, not from the current road form. It just needs roundabouts to replace the street lights so there is constant flow of traffic, c'mon now.


EDIT: For the record, traffic counts have actually been FALLING along lindsey over the last 12 years...so why widen the road?

[venture]

The widening of Lindsey in this area is inevitable. There is absolutely nothing special or sacred about it that can't essentially be recreated and made better for ten's of thousands... People are way to in love with a hand full of trees.... most of which could with a little effort could be transplanted.

With pretty high costs. What is wrong with have an area full of trees? I understand you may enjoy your spartan subdivision lot up on NW Tecumseh, but that isn't for everyone. If you don't like trees...don't live in Central Norman. Easy as that.

Take the needed land on the north side of the street and it will have minimal impact.
Lindsey street is scheduled to be widened from Berry westward in a few years.
Its only natural that the vast majority will demand that the rest of Lindsey eventually be widened too.

Exactly what land on the north side of Lindsey are you talking about? Have you even been to that area? Your ignorance is showing. The houses on the north side of the street are much closer than those on the south side. Still...you are talking about taking a significant portion of the front yards of many folks. Would you be willing to give up 50% of your front yard to have a street run through it?

If we are going to do anything to Lindsey, it would be to add a center lane for a street car rail system and that's it. Anything more than that isn't needed. All you are going to do is cause more traffic to stack up in that area instead of reduce it.

I say we leave it up to the property owners and those that actually want to live there.

[venture]

LOL. It isn't inevitable. There is absolutely something special about the area west of Berry as well. Great homes, great atmosphere, great transition to campus. I'm not in love with trees, I'm in love with the feel of Lindsey east of Berry. It absolutely can be improved WITHOUT widening. I hate to sound pompous, but I actually do know what I am talking about. Lindsey street is currently about to undergo a transformation, you're correct...however, did you know that it may not be to the original 4-5 lane road? There are discussions and possible plans-to-be for a complete streetscape project for Lindsey that does not include simply widening the road....I'm telling you, the traffic comes from the constant stop/go of the street lights, not from the current road form. It just needs roundabouts to replace the street lights so there is constant flow of traffic, c'mon now.

I would love to see roundabouts replace the lines east of Berry. It definitely would make more sense and would have minimal impact on the neighborhood. Not to mention the creativity you could get with decorating them. The issue then hits again when you enter campus on how to handle those lights which are there for pedestrian traffic. I would like to see walkways similar to the elevated ones in Las Vegas, but you have to worry about truck traffic and clearance.

[ou48A]

did you know that it may not be to the original 4-5 lane road? There are discussions and possible plans-to-be for a complete streetscape project for Lindsey that does not include simply widening the road

So are you trying to say that the City of Norman leaders lied when the city’s voters passed a bond issue to widen “Lindsey Street from Interstate 35 to Berry Road would increase driving lanes to four, include a center turn lane”.

Doing anything but what was voted on is tantamount to a lie and those responsible deviating from what was voted on and passed should be help personally responsible.
There is nothing here that I haven't seen in over a hundred other locations and what ever it is can be rebuilt, but with a widen street.

Lindsey Street widening plan unveiled in Norman | News OK

[ou48A]

EDIT: For the record, traffic counts have actually been FALLING along lindsey over the last 12 years...so why widen the road?

Your thoughts that Lindsey street traffic is not growing worse is not the reality according to the quoted information.

“Traffic will continue to increase by about 1 to 2 percent each year, “and it's already highly congested and uncomfortable. It's only going to get worse,” she said.”

As the article discusses this is a serious safety issue. The congestion its self is a serious safety issue that very seriously slows emergency response times. The congestion also causes pollution and lost productivity and commerce.

All of this combined is not worth a few old homes and a few trees on the north side of Lindsey street.

Lindsey Street widening plan unveiled in Norman | News OK

[ou48A]

Lindsey Street widening plan unveiled in Norman | News OK


Engineer Bret Cabbiness said the plan is designed to correct chronic flooding problems and dangerous traffic conditions on the one-mile strip along Lindsey, which now has two driving lanes and a center turn lane.

The Lindsey Street corridor has the highest accident rate in the city and a crash rate three times the national average for similar type roads, said Nikki Tiner of Garver LLC.


About 21,000 vehicles travel that stretch of Lindsey every day, with accidents occurring at the rate of about one every four days, Tiner said.

[Geographer]

Your thoughts that Lindsey street traffic is not growing worse is not the reality according to the quoted information.

“Traffic will continue to increase by about 1 to 2 percent each year, “and it's already highly congested and uncomfortable. It's only going to get worse,” she said.”

As the article discusses this is a serious safety issue. The congestion its self is a serious safety issue that very seriously slows emergency response times. The congestion also causes pollution and lost productivity and commerce.

All of this combined is not worth a few old homes and a few trees on the north side of Lindsey street.

Lindsey Street widening plan unveiled in Norman | News OK

I do not know where these people getting those numbers because they have actually been decreasing, look at traffic counts of the past decade.

There is definitely time to change the format of the street and yes it is being discussed and no it isn't illegal.

The OU IQC held a meeting on "Livable Lindsey Streetscape" a couple of week ago with a streetscape expert...In attendance were the city's contracted engineering firm, the mayor, and a couple of council members. There is definitely consideration of a revamp of the project.


Like I said, we're taking medicine for a heart problem instead of stop eating cheeseburgers. If you want to induce and create more traffic then by all means widen Lindsey. If you want to correct the current problem, replace street lights with roundabouts and have traffic continuously flow. I walked from my office on campus to my car in the parking lot and drove to Johnny Carino's for lunch today on the west side of I-35 off of Lindsey. Do you know how long it took me? I timed myself: 11 minutes and 35 seconds...actual drive time was around 9 minutes (and I hit 4 lights). So your assertion that it takes 20-30 minutes to get from campus area to shopping on the west side is a little overstated...unless it's rush hour..then plan accordingly (like you do anywhere else).


EDIT: here are your traffic counts for Lindsey over the past 10 years....DECREASING. traffic.JPG

[BoulderSooner]

there is about 0% chance that it is not made 2 driving lanes in each direction

[Geographer]

there is about 0% chance that it is not made 2 driving lanes in each direction

I'm not saying it won't happen...but what I am saying is that there are other things being considered now than simply making it look like robinson or any arterial street on the west side.

[BoulderSooner]

I'm not saying it won't happen...but what I am saying is that there are other things being considered now than simply making it look like robinson or any arterial street on the west side.

making it look like robinson was never the plan .... extra lanes plus bike lanes plus sidewalks was always the plan