Cannabis

[NoOkie]

NoOkie, I think the problem, is often practical. As you say, it is relatively easy to control the amount of alcohol you provide your child and you can easily couple light drinking with education. You always end up having to hope for the best but it helps that few responsible parents are going to serve your child alcohol without your permission. Culturally, that doesn't happen that much.

Pot smoking, not so much and that isn't going to change for quite some time. That might be because of the stigma of smoking and it might be that might change over time, but we aren't nearly there, yet. For every sensible pot smoking adult who would see the benefit of educating their child about pot smoking - and the wrongness of exposing someone else's child to pot without their express permission - there are 100 more that would just look the other way when junior and his buds lit up. And that leads to really dangerous situations. I DON'T want my stoned fifteen year old daughter making decisions about sex and birth control while over at some pothead's unsupervised house in the afternoon anymore than I would want her to make those sorts of decisions when she is drunk. I just don't see any reason to believe that pot is less dangerous in any tangible way for kids than alcohol - they are both dangerous in different ways - and some in common.

I think the same 100 parents that would ignore a joint would also ignore a bottle of whiskey. I think that's just general irresponsibility and not a unique stoner irresponsibility. I can see where you're coming from though, in that someone that already ignores laws with rather harsh penalties just to get high is probably not going to be a great parent. If it was legalized, those people would still make ****ty parents, but I imagine there would be other casual users that wouldn't be. Personally, I'm with you in the not wanting other parents to allow my children to partake in illegal(or legal, really...), thought-impairing substances without my permission be they alcohol, marijuana or whatever else.

I really think the parental permission side of it is the least dangerous part. It's the kids that they're friends with that have much more influence. I spent a lot of time drunk and stoned in highschool, and it was never with anyone's parents "looking the other way". I knew people that were older and had their own apartments, or just went out to a random field somewhere and had "deep" conversations that involved saying "Dude, wow" a lot.

Penny, I guess my rationality is that the 15 yr old girl would be able to make a more rational decision while being high over being drunk.

I really don't see the difference here. I've been really drunk, and really high and the quality of the decisions that came out of both situations were equally poor.

[Jim Kyle]

We managed to quit a few years ago, and their dad managed to quit this year, but I'm worried that the damage is already done and the behavior is already imprinted. Out of all the dumb things that I did as a kid(And there were plenty!), smoking tobacco was easily the stupidest with the longest term effects.

Don't worry overmuch about it. I was a heavy smoker for some 40 years, and my wife took it up shortly before our marriage. Our sons all grew up in a home that undoubtedly reeked of stale tobacco smoke -- and as a result they all developed a total revulsion to it! Hopefully, you'll be as lucky...

I did quit, some 25 years ago, but the damage to my body had already been done. I now have an implanted defibrillator, and only 50% lung capacity -- but I knew what I was doing and did it anyway, so I now have no right to complain about the consequences...

[PennyQuilts]

Penny, I guess my rationality is that the 15 yr old girl would be able to make a more rational decision while being high over being drunk.

I couldn't disagree, more. In fact, for many, pot acts as an aphrodisiac. I'm just saying...

[RadicalModerate]

well . . . i guess it isn't too late to ban--or re-approve?--smoked oysters . . . libido-wise or -stupid . . .
(just out of curiosity . . . is it the oysters themselves or the string of pearls for a necklace that makes oysters famous?)

[kevinpate]

If Ganga is "legalized" wouldn't all of the gangstas behind bars for related-activities have to be released and provided with lawyers to sue for wrongful imprisonment?
(FlashForward to Lawyers Office . . . Guy pounding on door . . . "Dave???" . . . "Dave's not here, man . . . i mean mon" . . .)

Love the joke at the end. As to the earlier part, in a word ... nope.

[RadicalModerate]

Love the joke at the end. As to the earlier part, in a word ... nope.

So . . . in essence . . . you are saying--with the brief, yet non-redundant and wasteful, parsimony of words that are inherent to the elusive quality often attributed to art and, mostly, to wit:
"Say Nope to Dope"?

(objection, your honor: leading the witness . . . or the witless as the case may be or not . . . "dave" . . . "dave" . . . donde esta 'dave'? knockknockknock=)

[LandRunOkie]

I DON'T want my stoned fifteen year old daughter making decisions about sex and birth control while over at some pothead's unsupervised house in the afternoon anymore than I would want her to make those sorts of decisions when she is drunk.

Why is your 15 year old daughter stoned? You've created a straw man by bringing kids into this. None of the state laws allow anyone that young to legally smoke.

There were 8600 prisoners in state penitentiaries in 2002. They each cost about as much to incarcerate as a public school teacher makes per annum. That means a state the size of Oklahoma could afford to hire about 80-100 new school teachers if it stopped incarcerating marijuana users (not including new tax revenue). This may be beneficial to your stoned 15 year old daughter.

[RadicalModerate]

As soon as one introduces a strawman into the mix I imagine a character out of the Wizard of Oz . . .
protecting the lush marijuana fields of [select your location] . . . O! If he only had a brain AND a heart . . .
You know . . . Like the crew on Trailer Park Boys . . . eh . . .=)

[jett713]

Well good luck in passing that job related drug test then. Ya know even if pot is legalized it's still going to seriously limit opportunities for better paying jobs.

I'm sure if cannabis were legalized at the federal level, they would no longer test for it as they don't test for alcohol. Unless you go to work drunk. You kind of sound like the kid who is going to take his toys and go home, if cannabis were to be legalized. I know plenty of people who smoke on a regular basis and make good money.

[RadicalModerate]

The guys and gals who sell it but don't smoke it make even better money.
(and get off that whole goofy "cannabis" banned wagon: "hemp" involves fewer keystrokes)

[stick47]

they would no longer test for it

It would be up to the individual employer whether you get drug screened prior to employment. It would also be at his discretion as to hiring you if you test positive for MJ.

[onthestrip]

I'm sure if cannabis were legalized at the federal level, they would no longer test for it as they don't test for alcohol. Unless you go to work drunk. You kind of sound like the kid who is going to take his toys and go home, if cannabis were to be legalized. I know plenty of people who smoke on a regular basis and make good money.

Employers in CO and WA can still test employees and new hires for pot, and obviously fire them or not hire them if they fail.

[jett713]

If I had my choice, my kids would drink wine or beer at the dinner table and leave the rest alone. More and more studies are showing that kids' brains are affected by pot in detrimental ways that might not affect adults the same way, and let's face it, the pot kids smoke, these days, is much stronger than it was decades ago. I saw nothing good come from teens smoking pot as a guardian ad litem, and plenty just horrible in terms of memory impairment (even when not stoned), lack of motivation, school achievement dropping off, poor social skills and interactions, retarded maturity and addictive personality development. It also allows underlying mental illness to more easily gain a foothold. Excessive drinking is no good, either, but to pretend pot smoking is no big deal for kids, IMO, is dangerous. It is very dangerous for some kids (perhaps not all) but you just don't know which ones will be severely affected.

For that matter, it would worry me more to have my kids running with a bunch of potheads than kids who sneak beer. I say that from purely practical reasons - kids who drink can more easily hide it and if they are drinking, chances are if their parents don't know it, it is more likely because they were fooled. Plenty of good parents with good intentions are fooled by sneaky kids. it means they were fooled - it doesn't mean they aren't making a good effort to set a safe environment.

But kids who smoke have clothes and rooms that reek. Parents of the kids who ignore the smell are liable to be either potheads, themselves, dysfunctional parents who let their kids run wild, or clueless. How many of those parents are going to call the kid's parents and tell them that, although they let their own child smoke, they want to make sure it is okay for the neighbor kid to join in? They won't. They will just look the other way and that sets kids up to end up in a smoking den with no real adult supervision.

Good parents might let their kids drink at a certain age, in moderation, but I can't see good parents throwing open the bar for the neighbor kids to do the same because they'd realize that wouldn't be appropriate. Maybe I was wrong but I let my kids have a short glass of wine or beer with dinner (at home) beginning they were in their mid teens (16 - 17). We treated it as a learning experience and would discuss different types of wine or beer, how it was brewed, moderation, etc. But I can't imagine having one of their friends over and offering them alcohol without their parent's permission. And I wouldn't serve my kids alcohol if we had company because that is something another parent might not feel comfortable with.

Kids sneaking behind the barn to smoke or drink is one thing. It happens. Kids whose families tolerate unsupervised drinking, smoking, etc. and allow other parents' kids to use their home as a safe haven tend to be bad news because there is a break down in boundaries. I wouldn't trust those families to properly keep an eye out for my kid.

I don't want kids smoking cannabis either. Under current laws it is easier for a kid to get cannabis than it is alcohol. Joe Schmoe does not ask for ID. If cannabis were regulated, taxed and sold to persons 21 years of age. In adults only stores where they ID, those same stores would be fined and/or jailed if selling to a minor. Same goes for contributing to the delinquency of a minor. I know I would rather have my kids get high as get wasted on alcohol. Not one person has ever died of a cannabis overdose. You can't say the same for alcohol. Cannabis is not addictive, you can get a dependence on it, but is not the same as addiction. I don't know about you, but I'm tired of our government flushing Ten Billion dollars down the toilet every year to stop a plant. All the senseless deaths across our southern border. Why not get the tax revenue from it and use it for something good. Whether it be recreational or medicinal. The status quo is not working.

[jett713]

Employers in CO and WA can still test employees and new hires for pot, and obviously fire them or not hire them if they fail.

I did say when it was legalized at the federal level.

[stick47]

Doesn't matter about the legality of the drug. Employers will always have the right to drug screen workers and not hire those who don't pass or fire those already on their payroll who fail the test. It's a liability issue with the company. Workplace safety etc.

[Stew]

I couldn't disagree, more. In fact, for many, pot acts as an aphrodisiac. I'm just saying...

Hogwash

[venture]

Doesn't matter about the legality of the drug. Employers will always have the right to drug screen workers and not hire those who don't pass or fire those already on their payroll who fail the test. It's a liability issue with the company. Workplace safety etc.

Uh duh? Of course they always have the right to drug screen, but if it is decriminalized then chances are it'll stop being a targeted substance on the drug screen. I would hazard to say that several prescription drugs are more of a threat to liability than pot.

[stick47]

and chances are that you're wrong. It affects an employees cognizance so it's a safety issue. I would also suggest that if a worker was injured on the job and the company suspected he was negligent that they have him tested and if he failed the test the company would lawyer up and deny workers comp, etc.

[BBatesokc]

Uh duh? Of course they always have the right to drug screen, but if it is decriminalized then chances are it'll stop being a targeted substance on the drug screen. I would hazard to say that several prescription drugs are more of a threat to liability than pot.

I'd question that. Alcohol is legal, but many companies test for alcohol if an employee is involved in an accident. Also, at least one company I worked for would terminate you if alcohol showed up on a random drug screening. Other companies i worked for may have done the some thing, but I wasn't aware of it.

[venture]

I'd question that. Alcohol is legal, but many companies test for alcohol if an employee is involved in an accident. Also, at least one company I worked for would terminate you if alcohol showed up on a random drug screening. Other companies i worked for may have done the some thing, but I wasn't aware of it.

Absolutely they'll test for it if you are involved in an onsite incident. That is standard procedure. All or most companies have policies against drinking while on company time, during lunches, and even X hours before work starts. So if something happens while on duty, they are definitely going to test for it to see if it was a contributor.

If you are drinking before a drunk screen, one that is a bit stupid since you have to drive to it, but I've yet ran into it being an issue when hiring anyone.

[venture]

and chances are that you're wrong. It affects an employees cognizance so it's a safety issue. I would also suggest that if a worker was injured on the job and the company suspected he was negligent that they have him tested and if he failed the test the company would lawyer up and deny workers comp, etc.

Anything to do with on the job incidents are completely a different animal than someone who uses it at home recreationally If you are using alcohol, pot, or even pain killers while on site you are an idiot. Absolutely they should be tested for and that person terminated if they were under the influence of it.

[BBatesokc]

Absolutely they'll test for it if you are involved in an onsite incident. That is standard procedure. All or most companies have policies against drinking while on company time, during lunches, and even X hours before work starts. So if something happens while on duty, they are definitely going to test for it to see if it was a contributor.

If you are drinking before a drunk screen, one that is a bit stupid since you have to drive to it, but I've yet ran into it being an issue when hiring anyone.

I remember a certain ex DA's wife who arrived at a previously scheduled drug screening with an alarming BAC.

I do however think, even if legal, many companies would decline to hire an individual if they tested positive for marijuana as long as they had other candidates to choose from. As a business owner, I'd probably first ask that an employee pre-disclose marijuana use. If they lied, that would most likely make the decision to fire or not hire easier.

[Bunty]

Don't worry overmuch about it. I was a heavy smoker for some 40 years, and my wife took it up shortly before our marriage. Our sons all grew up in a home that undoubtedly reeked of stale tobacco smoke -- and as a result they all developed a total revulsion to it! Hopefully, you'll be as lucky...

I did quit, some 25 years ago, but the damage to my body had already been done. I now have an implanted defibrillator, and only 50% lung capacity -- but I knew what I was doing and did it anyway, so I now have no right to complain about the consequences...

Meanwhile, what is the worst medical problem that may happen to heavy pot smokers? Bronchitis?

[PennyQuilts]

Why is your 15 year old daughter stoned? You've created a straw man by bringing kids into this. None of the state laws allow anyone that young to legally smoke.

There were 8600 prisoners in state penitentiaries in 2002. They each cost about as much to incarcerate as a public school teacher makes per annum. That means a state the size of Oklahoma could afford to hire about 80-100 new school teachers if it stopped incarcerating marijuana users (not including new tax revenue). This may be beneficial to your stoned 15 year old daughter.

If you are suggesting that making pot legal won't result in more teens getting stoned, I have to disagree with you.

And I didn't bring kids into this - the discussion about kids began when someone else said they'd rather their child smoke pot than drink. My point - that you are glossing over and is NOT a strawman - is that I don't want my daughter making life changing decisions whether she is stoned OR drunk. Assuming that it won't be "my" child that has a problem is a burying your head in the sand. No child is immune and you never know which one can handle it and which can't.

And forgive me if I say that if they legalize pot, you will probably have less people incarcerated for marijuana offenses, but you'll also have a lot more social problems that go along with pot smoking and that costs money, too. I worked with way too many messed up kids whose problems were the result of excessive pot smoking - even the ones whose parents were doing the best they could to get it under control - and this was in a state where pot was illegal. Every kid I ever tried to work with whose personality had changed to surly and withdrawn - and who was dropping out of school - and who had became dishonest and deceitful to hide their habit - would spout the same sorts of arguments, i.e., that pot smoking is harmless and better than drinking.

[PennyQuilts]

Hogwash

Oh, sweetie...