Paycom Center (formerly Chesapeake Arena)

[Plutonic Panda]

One thing I’ve noticed is Tulsa emulates a lot of what OKC does. We build an arena and they build a fancier one. We build a grand park and surprise the Gathering Place is announced. They rip off maps with Tulsa vision. I’m sure there are other examples. I mean good for them but I’ve certainly felt the attitude tulsans have about OKC. You can speak without words and it says a lot. I’ve been up to Tulsa a couple times in the last several months and did not get that exciting, thriving city feel I get in OKC. To me that’s the biggest problem.

[barrettd]

Having grown up in Tulsa and lived in OKC. 99.9% of people in both cities don't denigrate the other city in the ways people discuss here. Honestly, the thing that keeps it going is these threads where people keep claiming it's happening...

Could be, but my personal experience tells me otherwise. Maybe I've just been interacting with the 0.1%.

[BoulderSooner]

Having grown up in Tulsa and lived in OKC. 99.9% of people in both cities don't denigrate the other city in the ways people discuss here. Honestly, the thing that keeps it going is these threads where people keep claiming it's happening...

i live here .. my wife's family is from there ..... and yes people in OKC don't talk down about tulsa ... (or really even care about tulsa) but the opposite is not true and the fact that OKC people don't really care about tulsa pisses them off even more ..

[Jake]

A dedicated “OKC vs Tulsa” thread would be really entertaining for me. This stuff replaces the Oilers/Blazers rivalry of old.

[T. Jamison]

A dedicated “OKC vs Tulsa” thread would be really entertaining for me. This stuff replaces the Oilers/Blazers rivalry of old.

I'm working on getting all the numbers and metrics between Tulsa and OKC and starting a new thread.

[Laramie]

A dedicated “OKC vs Tulsa” thread would be really entertaining for me. This stuff replaces the Oilers/Blazers rivalry of old.

That would be interesting. IMO it would blow this forum in 10 different directions--5 for each city.

Competition is good. Plutonic Panda mentioned how Tulsa is trying to keep up with Oklahoma City--this became more noticeable after the construction of the Bricktown Canal and the Oklahoma City downtown arena. Tulsa had outpaced OKC prior to MAPS...

[shawnw]

Just make an extensive amenity list and have two columns, one for OKC and one for Tulsa and go down the list and check the boxes for an empirical solution?

[BDP]

But, of those 99.9%, how many want the other city to succeed at a greater level than their own? That is why I hate that the BOK gets such good concerts.

Dude, Tulsa is not succeeding at any significantly greater level than OKC when it comes to touring music. I'm not sure what your idea of "such good concerts" is, but many big money/big production shows have been been booked in OKC's arena. And so have they at the BOK center. Just look at past bookings and the idea that OKC is somehow inferior to Tulsa in arena bookings in the last ten years is a weird argument to make, especially when you put in it context of other markets.

At the end of the day, though, you need to realize that Tulsa is not the "other city" when it comes to trying book a show that will sell 15k to 20k tickets in a night on a tour. They really are the same market, or, at least, overlapping markets in that context.

I used to go to shows at Cain's all the time, because it has booked above it's weight class for a long long time. It's not an impressive venue, but it sounds good (especially on stage) and has a great history. People want to play it and understandably. And I will jump at any chance to go there to see a band I like. But as far as comparing arenas between the two markets, it's as silly as when people were comparing convenience store within the two markets.

[unfundedrick]

I'm working on getting all the numbers and metrics between Tulsa and OKC and starting a new thread.

No need for a new thread. This has been discussed ad infinitum previously in at least a couple of other threads.

https://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=37659

https://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=25549

[Plutonic Panda]

No need for a new thread. This has been discussed ad infinitum previously in at least a couple of previous threads.

https://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=37659

https://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=25549

Eh, a new thread would be interesting.

[unfundedrick]

Eh, a new thread would be interesting.

No more interesting than continuing to use the other threads. It would just be a continuing rehash of the same viewpoints. Many people aren't aware of the other threads so feel a need to start a new one.

[Jake]

No need for a new thread. This has been discussed ad infinitum previously in at least a couple of other threads.

https://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=37659

https://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=25549

I should have added an /s to my original comment.

[unfundedrick]

I should have added an /s to my original comment.

Everyone has their own idea about what they would prefer but having an omnibus thread for all aspects of OKC vs. Tulsa would be too cumbersome for me. I have little to no interest in the topic of concerts but am more interested in things like developments, infrastructure, and transportation. I would have to wade through a lot of things to find what I would want to look at. When talking about concerts, other than the mention of specific concerts, I saw really no new ideas or opinions mentioned in this thread that haven't been mentioned multiple times previously.

[BG918]

OKC/Tulsa operates as a single market in the minds of those outside of OK. The sooner those of us in OK realize that there will be no need for an “OKC vs Tulsa” thread because we want each other to succeed because we are all one big market. 2.4M has a lot more national importance than singular 1.4M and 1M metros.

[WheelerD Guy]

One thing I’ve noticed is Tulsa emulates a lot of what OKC does. We build an arena and they build a fancier one. We build a grand park and surprise the Gathering Place is announced. They rip off maps with Tulsa vision. I’m sure there are other examples. I mean good for them but I’ve certainly felt the attitude tulsans have about OKC. You can speak without words and it says a lot. I’ve been up to Tulsa a couple times in the last several months and did not get that exciting, thriving city feel I get in OKC. To me that’s the biggest problem.

Tulsa has a couple of pockets that are extremely nice with a lot of old money (i.e., Southern Hills, Utica Square, Woodward Park, etc.), but the overall feel and polish of the city, at large, is way below OKC's feel. It's just not on the same growth trajectory. At all.

Plus, the entry to the west side of the city is marred by the Holly Frontier refinery and other unsightly industrial land uses. Tulsa would do well to hide those uses to the extent that they can.

[HOT ROD]

Dude, Tulsa is not succeeding at any significantly greater level than OKC when it comes to touring music. I'm not sure what your idea of "such good concerts" is, but many big money/big production shows have been been booked in OKC's arena. And so have they at the BOK center. Just look at past bookings and the idea that OKC is somehow inferior to Tulsa in arena bookings in the last ten years is a weird argument to make, especially when you put in it context of other markets.

At the end of the day, though, you need to realize that Tulsa is not the "other city" when it comes to trying book a show that will sell 15k to 20k tickets in a night on a tour. They really are the same market, or, at least, overlapping markets in that context.

I used to go to shows at Cain's all the time, because it has booked above it's weight class for a long long time. It's not an impressive venue, but it sounds good (especially on stage) and has a great history. People want to play it and understandably. And I will jump at any chance to go there to see a band I like. But as far as comparing arenas between the two markets, it's as silly as when people were comparing convenience store within the two markets.

this is what I was saying, this is the Oklahoma market with OKC and Tulsa (and other areas) considered one market. OKC is obviously the biggest city but Tulsa is seen as an extension.

[Laramie]

this is what I was saying, this is the Oklahoma market with OKC and Tulsa (and other areas) considered one market. OKC is obviously the biggest city but Tulsa is seen as an extension.

You're correct Hot Rod. Oklahoma City-Tulsa televises as one TV sports market. Bally Sports (Replaced Fox Sports Oklahoma) televises Thunder games on Cox Cable Channel 37; IIRC it's local ABC affiliate in Tulsa. The two markets have a combined TV households for 2021-22 market servicing 1,308,320 (OKC 755,340/TUL 552,980).

Nielsen DMA Rankings 2021: https://mediatracks.com/resources/ni...rankings-2021/

Back in 1997 when OKC applied for NHL expansion, Norick & Bennett made a push that both cities were considered one NHL TV market. The OKC NHL expansion was backed by Norick, Bennett & the Mathis Brothers.

The announcement of the expansion was to be revealed on a Monday. Norick was advised by the NHL chairman of the expansion committee to get a press release ready (and so was Columbus expansion group) on Friday to be released on the following Monday if OKC or Columbus, one would be awarded a franchise.

All of a sudden Columbus got solid financial backing from Nation Wide Insurance who worked a deal worth millions with a naming rights agreement for an NHL arena to be built in Columbus. A city with a much larger MSA than OKC and a larger TV household audience than OKC. The NHL didn't completely accept OKC-TUL as a combined TV sports market in the mid 90s.

Oklahoma City officials were told that the NHL didn't believe an NHL arena could be built on a budget of $89 million--passed by MAPS extension in 1993-94 for the NHL arena in downtown OKC.

Columbus was awarded the final franchise. The 4 team expansion included Nashville (1998-99), Atlanta (1999-20) , St. Paul-Minneapolis & Columbus (2000-01).

OKC would probably be an NHL member today if Columbus weren't awarded that final franchise. The Hartford Whalers (WHA merger with NHL) relocated to Raleigh in 1997-98

N.H.L. Names 4 Cities For Its New Franchises: https://www.nytimes.com/1997/06/18/s...ranchises.html

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[shawnw]

If only the NHL knew 89 million was just the first phase of a ~300M arena (probably doing the math wrong but you get the point)

[Laramie]

If only the NHL knew 89 million was just the first phase of a ~300M arena (probably doing the math wrong but you get the point)

Correct Shawnw:

Subsequent MAPS passed MAPS for Kids extension added $90 million to the arena and MAPS 4 will add $104 million and $11 million to the Thunder practice facility renovation that cost $10 million to build initially in 2009-10. Roughly $300 million included $8 million for WiFi and High Tech upgrades in 2018 passed in the GO-Bonds 2017 package.

All new seats are currently being replaced in the new Paycom Center.

I believe that if OKC's first major league sports franchise had been an NHL franchise our city and state would have supported it much like the NBA today.

[HOT ROD]

Honestly, NBA is much better if I have to pick between the two. NBA is much more international.

Perhaps when OKC gets to 2m we could pursue another league.

[DowntownMan]

Saw a crane rolling up to the arena today. Perhaps logo and lighting is about to start going up as expected prior to the season starting in just a few weeks

[shawnw]

Definitely glad we ended up with NBA vs NHL (though wouldn't mind NHL), just one of those hindsight 20/20 things...

[Laramie]

Probably a blessing in disguise we weren't awarded that 4th NHL franchise. Although the arena's original specifications were for hockey, many concerns about configuration and high dollar seating broiled into controversy.

Upon careful redesign and planning to accommodate the NBA, the arena's capacity settled at 18,203 and 15,152 for NHL Hockey; far below an envisioned original plans for a 19,000+ seat arena.

NBA arena seating adjustments:

Years Capacity
2002–2006 - 19,163

Years Capacity
2006–2008 - 19,164

Years Capacity
2008–2009 - 19,136

Years Capacity
2009–present - 18,203

Potential regional NHL rivals would have included Dallas, Colorado & St. Louis.
Potential regional NBA rivals are Dallas, Denver, Houston, Memphis, New Orleans & San Antonio.

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[shawnw]

Somewhere in the multiverse, the NHL Oklahoma City RedHawks are playing in the United Center arena....

[dcsooner]

Honestly, NBA is much better if I have to pick between the two. NBA is much more international.

Perhaps when OKC gets to 2m we could pursue another league.

NO Doubt, There is a reason NHL is ranked 4th or 5th pro league. NHL is not even close to NBA and other leagues.