Midtown

[Jeepnokc]

All parking should be open to the public during non-business hours. If the property owner wants to make a few extra dollars then they can post a parking attendant or install a pay station. There is no bigger waster of resources than to have 10,000 surface parking spaces not be used on evening and weekends.

Absolutely wrong! I have no duty to provide parking to anyone except my own customers. I especially have no duty or responsibility to provide a spot for people to leave their trash, pee on the bushes, or vomit when they come out of somebody else's business intoxicated. Businesses have a responsibility to their own customers to provide access and parking. They should be paying to rent those spaces and providing clean up if they don't have adequate resources. What next....I should provide public bathrooms for non customers?

[Pete]

You can't force Brown's to let people park there at night but I'm sure the McNellie's and MidtownR groups would be happy to pay them a bit of money to make that happen.

So, again, the question is: Why hasn't a deal been struck?

[Plutonic Panda]

All parking should be open to the public during non-business hours. If the property owner wants to make a few extra dollars then they can post a parking attendant or install a pay station. There is no bigger waster of resources than to have 10,000 surface parking spaces not be used on evening and weekends.

Should I be worried if you were ever to become supreme leader of OKC?

[Plutonic Panda]

Absolutely wrong! I have no duty to provide parking to anyone except my own customers. I especially have no duty or responsibility to provide a spot for people to leave their trash, pee on the bushes, or vomit when they come out of somebody else's business intoxicated. Businesses have a responsibility to their own customers to provide access and parking. They should be paying to rent those spaces and providing clean up if they don't have adequate resources. What next....I should provide public bathrooms for non customers?

+1

[OkieNate]

Absolutely wrong! I have no duty to provide parking to anyone except my own customers. I especially have no duty or responsibility to provide a spot for people to leave their trash, pee on the bushes, or vomit when they come out of somebody else's business intoxicated. Businesses have a responsibility to their own customers to provide access and parking. They should be paying to rent those spaces and providing clean up if they don't have adequate resources. What next....I should provide public bathrooms for non customers?

This guy JTF, wants to tell EVERYBODY what to do with property and resources that aren't his. What have you done for this town/city/OKC, sir? Your holier-than-thou attitude and opinions are obnoxious and completely take away from the (very few recently) good things you do say and or suggest. Bravo to you Jeep for protecting your property/ assets, and making sure you're taking care of what you need to.

[pickles]

This guy JTF, wants to tell EVERYBODY what to do with property and resources that aren't his. What have you done for this town/city/OKC, sir?

He memorized the right books and watched the right TED talks on youtube and then posted about it a lot?

[Paseofreak]

Y'all are climbing all over JTF as if he said it should be state law that you turn over your parking lot after business hours. That's not what he said. He said should, like in an ideal world, and I agree. Ideally, we would build more buildings and businesses and attract more people to a district like Midtown and build or dedicate less space to parking. Ideally, the same space would be used by numerous people visiting numerous places in the district to do business. Ideally, the lot owner would be compensated equitably either by collecting a fee from individual "parkers", a business association, or neighboring businesses with parking deficits, and ideally, the compensation would allow for maintaining cleanliness. It's just the best thing for everybody involved.

[David]

Y'all are climbing all over JTF as if he said it should be state law that you turn over your parking lot after business hours. That's not what he said. He said should, like in an ideal world, and I agree. Ideally, we would build more buildings and businesses and attract more people to a district like Midtown and build or dedicate less space to parking. Ideally, the same space would be used by numerous people visiting numerous places in the district to do business. Ideally, the lot owner would be compensated equitably either by collecting a fee from individual "parkers", a business association, or neighboring businesses with parking deficits, and ideally, the compensation would allow for maintaining cleanliness. It's just the best thing for everybody involved.

This. Jump on JTF when he deserves it, not when he is speaking sense.

[jccouger]

Yeah, my god. Hes just saying it should be that way that businesses share their small amount of parkin . Since one business usually does most of their business at night and one during the day it would make the most urban sense for them to share parking and increase the available space for devlopment.

[kevinpate]

I'm with jeep on this one. While a business can choose to look the other way, or even make money on their space in the evening, that whole aspect of it being their space means well, it's their space.

[David]

That cannot possibly be the end of the argument. Property rights are not all inclusive of anything an owner wants to do, especially when we're talking about property in the middle of a city.

[Jeepnokc]

That cannot possibly be the end of the argument. Property rights are not all inclusive of anything an owner wants to do, especially when we're talking about property in the middle of a city.

Where does it stop? You want to open up a business next door but don't have bathrooms. I don't use mine at night so should I be forced to let the other business' patrons use my bathroom. What about if you have an apartment in New York where space is at premium and you work days....I work nights should you have to let me sleep there in day because it isn't being used. We are crossing a line from codes where my property rights are curtailed as where my property doesn't affect another's property or area to having my property rights taken away for the betterment of someone else's property. This is pure socialism. The capitalistic market will take care of it. If Fassler Hall and McNellies want to have people continue to see them, they will find a parking solution for their patrons whether it be negotiating a lease with Browns or finding another solution.

Couple of things to consider. McNellies has basically built three very large venues and are on both sides of Browns. Did they not have enough forethought to consider parking for their customers. Should they have bought more land or built a smaller structure so they could have added a parking garage in the back? It may not have been an issue when it was just McNellies but how full is there parking lot getting at night? Browns opens a 5 am so it is reasonable that at least a couple of the bakers are getting to work either before or when the bars are closing. How would you like to own a piece of property and can't even find a parking spot because of the business next door. Doesn't the building McNellies is in have parking decks on the back side? Are they being used? There is a lot of land in that area as well as several large lots that the McNellies group can look at for parking so they have lots of options. This lot is the prime space as it is directly between the venues but it isn't theirs so they don't get to have it (Grosse Pointe Blank reference).

[jccouger]

I just don't think he was saying that law should enforce everybody has to share their personal parking. I just think he is saying in the perfect world the community of business owners of a district would come together for the betterment of the entire district & would optimize the potential of the district by sharing parking.

How many of you guys have gone to bricktown & parked in bass pros parking? Or gone to uptown & parked in front of a business that you didn't end up going to? It happens ALL the time. Nobody is saying it should be law or you should be FORCED to do something. It would just be in the better interest of the entire district if parking could become available for all patrons (as long as it wasn't a detriment to one or multiple specific businesses). That is how districts usually work right? They usually become one entity (as far as the consumer goes) even though they are ran by multiple persons. By isolating yourself from the district it can create rifs & lead to bad developments. Just take a look at what is happening in uptown right now....

[Pete]

If Brown's Bakery is so interested in the success of Midtown, why hasn't this issue been resolved without them resorting to towing cars and causing bad blood?

It's hard to believe that the MidtownR people and Elliot Nelson wouldn't be happy to compensate them fairly.

[David]

Where does it stop? You want to open up a business next door but don't have bathrooms. I don't use mine at night so should I be forced to let the other business' patrons use my bathroom. What about if you have an apartment in New York where space is at premium and you work days....I work nights should you have to let me sleep there in day because it isn't being used. We are crossing a line from codes where my property rights are curtailed as where my property doesn't affect another's property or area to having my property rights taken away for the betterment of someone else's property. This is pure socialism. The capitalistic market will take care of it. If Fassler Hall and McNellies want to have people continue to see them, they will find a parking solution for their patrons whether it be negotiating a lease with Browns or finding another solution.

Couple of things to consider. McNellies has basically built three very large venues and are on both sides of Browns. Did they not have enough forethought to consider parking for their customers. Should they have bought more land or built a smaller structure so they could have added a parking garage in the back? It may not have been an issue when it was just McNellies but how full is there parking lot getting at night? Browns opens a 5 am so it is reasonable that at least a couple of the bakers are getting to work either before or when the bars are closing. How would you like to own a piece of property and can't even find a parking spot because of the business next door. Doesn't the building McNellies is in have parking decks on the back side? Are they being used? There is a lot of land in that area as well as several large lots that the McNellies group can look at for parking so they have lots of options. This lot is the prime space as it is directly between the venues but it isn't theirs so they don't get to have it (Grosse Pointe Blank reference).

There's a difference between letting people use your parking and letting them use your bathroom and bed, and you know it. Also, stop invoking "socialism" as if it's a dirty word that makes your argument for you.

Do you really think there aren't codes already in place that take away your property rights taken away for the betterment of someone else's property?

OKC Code Enforcement
Norman Code Compliance

For example, from the OKC listing:

Graffiti

It is against City Ordinance to allow Graffiti to remain on the premises. Property owners are responsible for removing graffiti.

Ordinance - Chapter 35-Section 147

Why do we have no right to have graffiti on our buildings? Clearly socialist and terrible since it has no bearing except on the neighborhood property values. Who cares about other people's property, after all.

Inoperable Vehicle

This covers vehicles anywhere on the property, including driveways. Examples include, but are not limited to: wrecked cars, vehicles that are all or partially dismantled and even vehicles with flat (or no) tires.

Ordinance - Chapter 35-Section 37

Why the heck do I have no right to leave a car up on blocks in my front yard? Those socialists!

[Jeepnokc]

If Brown's Bakery is so interested in the success of Midtown, why hasn't this issue been resolved without them resorting to towing cars and causing bad blood?

It's hard to believe that the MidtownR people and Elliot Nelson wouldn't be happy to compensate them fairly.

Could it be that there is enough parking in the area that they don't need to pay for parking for patrons. Browns isn't the only lot...it is just the most convenient.

[Jeepnokc]

There's a difference between letting people use your parking and letting them use your bathroom and bed, and you know it. Also, stop invoking "socialism" as if it's a dirty word that makes your argument for you.

Do you really think there aren't codes already in place that take away your property rights taken away for the betterment of someone else's property?

OKC Code Enforcement
Norman Code Compliance

For example, from the OKC listing:



Why do we have no right to have graffiti on our buildings? Clearly socialist and terrible since it has no bearing except on the neighborhood property values. Who cares about other people's property, after all.



Why the heck do I have no right to leave a car up on blocks in my front yard? Those socialists!

You want to take my property away during certain hours and give to someone else to use...how is that not socialism? There is a difference between code enforcement and taking away property and you know it. Telling me I have to keep my property clean and graffiti free is different than taking my property and letting another private person use it just because I am not using it at that moment.

[David]

You want to take my property away during certain hours and give to someone else to use...how is that not socialism? There is a difference between code enforcement and taking away property and you know it. Telling me I have to keep my property clean and graffiti free is different than taking my property and letting another private person use it just because I am not using it at that moment.

Again, socialism is not a dirty word that automatically wins the argument. Maybe it is socialism, and maybe that's not a bad thing.

[jerrywall]

+1

I can't believe you liked this, and then criticize Edmond when they won't approve a zoning for a new business that doesn't provide sufficient parking for their customers.

[jerrywall]

I guess Brown's could solve this by putting up gates they close that block the parking lot entrances after hours....

I'm trusting Steve's account that Brown's gave plenty of notice, and is having to deal with trash and destruction of their parking lot, since I don't have any information to the contrary. Yeah, it would be great if Brown's could work some deal out to share the lot. But why is the onus on them to create that arrangement? Has any effort been made by the other midtown businesses to make some sort of agreement?

[OkieBerto]

If Brown's Bakery is so interested in the success of Midtown, why hasn't this issue been resolved without them resorting to towing cars and causing bad blood?

It's hard to believe that the MidtownR people and Elliot Nelson wouldn't be happy to compensate them fairly.

The Brown's have lost two family members in the last year and they are not some chain with a CEO. They are a family with a small business in an aging building. MidtownR would probably rather they get the heck out of dodge so they can put something else in this location. They probably want to tear down that building. So I bet this was the Brown Families' only option. If they are making some money off of parking, isn't that helping a Midtown business?

[OkieBerto]

I guess Brown's could solve this by putting up gates they close that block the parking lot entrances after hours....

I'm trusting Steve's account that Brown's gave plenty of notice, and is having to deal with trash and destruction of their parking lot, since I don't have any information to the contrary. Yeah, it would be great if Brown's could work some deal out to share the lot. But why is the onus on them to create that arrangement? Has any effort been made by the other midtown businesses to make some sort of agreement?

They have signs up at both entrances. There are also two reserved spots for car sharing vehicles that have towing notices if someone parks in those spots. This doesn't keep people from parking there. If you do not heed the warnings, you deserved to get towed. Why isn't the discussion about the giant bar with no parking at all?

[Pete]

The Brown's have lost two family members in the last year and they are not some chain with a CEO. They are a family with a small business in an aging building. MidtownR would probably rather they get the heck out of dodge so they can put something else in this location. They probably want to tear down that building. So I bet this was the Brown Families' only option. If they are making some money off of parking, isn't that helping a Midtown business?

Brown's has been in disrepair for a long time and in fact were reported for code violations several years ago; broken windows, graffiti, etc.

This has been going on for a long time before their recent family tragedies.

[OkieBerto]

Brown's has been in disrepair for a long time and in fact were reported for code violations several years ago; broken windows, graffiti, etc.

This has been going on for a long time before their recent family tragedies.

Understood. Recently they gave their inside area a make over. With increased money from parking fees, maybe we might see them update the outside as well. I guess I am showing my optimism that this will all work out.

[Jeepnokc]

Again, socialism is not a dirty word that automatically wins the argument. Maybe it is socialism, and maybe that's not a bad thing.

You pick out one word out of 72 and say that I am using it to win argument. it isn't about winning an argument. I have never used the word "socialism" as a bad thing but to accurately describe what people are wanting to do. These are theories and there are good arguments for and against. However, we live in a capitalistic society and have a right to not have our property taken without just compensation. Maybe that's not a bad thing either. If there is a need for parking or people want convenience of parking close...they can pay for it. Happens everytime there is a Thunder game. People that want to park for free will park further away and walk. Free market. I would be willing to bet that if Browns started charging for parking....the lot would mostly be empty as there are plenty of spots to park in the surrounding area and streets. No one is entitled to free convenient parking.