First National Center

[Pete]

I am frustrated by how much building mass in the very center of our downtown is proposed to be demolished in this project for a HUGE parking garage. Particularly in lieu that we successfully fought for and won front door streetcar service for First National on Robinson.

Public Works really didn't want us on Robinson due to the quantity of utility conflicts.

547,000 square feet of office space will be removed! That is more than half the entire complex.

I knew some of it would have to go but this seems excessive.

They don't need 440 parking spaces for their own use... Most the hotel guests will not have cars and we are only talking about 125 living units plus a small amount of office space.

It seems every new development downtown wants to overbuild parking.

[PhiAlpha]

I am frustrated by how much building mass in the very center of our downtown is proposed to be demolished in this project for a HUGE parking garage. Particularly in lieu that we successfully fought for and won front door streetcar service for First National on Robinson.

Public Works really didn't want us on Robinson due to the quantity of utility conflicts.

The only benefit I could possibly see is that it could drive office or residential development, that could've been housed in those buildings, into the surface parking and grass lots around the CBD as well as Core to Shore, Film Row, Midtown, etc. However, I would be completely against it if some form of retail is not retained at the ground level.

[Pete]

BTW, to put 547,000 square feet that will be demolished into perspective:

Chase Tower: 514,000 SF
Oklahoma Tower: 568,000 SF

547,000 alone would be the 4th largest office building downtown, behind Devon, Leadership Square and just barely behind OK Tower.

[zookeeper]

This is a good point that I haven't been at ease with all along. I would rather there be some creative way to re-marry FNC to the Main Street garage. What a disservice was done when those two things were split apart. Honestly, you can go back to that move and blame it for a lot of the ongoing ownership/development issues around FNC. I hate crying over spilled milk, but that is something you would sure change if you could time-travel.

Very good point and I agree. You are also right about crying over spilled milk, but then how far would we have to go back? I remember the bustling First National of the sixties and still cry over that. But these later issues? Yes, it's all hindsight 20/20 stuff, but didn't have to be. It's clear we all have concerns about this part of the proposal. If huge sums of public money is involved, it is my opinion that we should be heard sooner rather than later, and not accept the unacceptable for fear of jettisoning the project. This has to be done right. Period.

[bchris02]

It is my opinion that we should be heard sooner rather than later, and not accept the unacceptable for fear of jettisoning the project. This has to be done right. Period.

I agree. The status quo would be better than what could be the worst-case scenario with the ongoing deal. Imagine a company that would evict all remaining tenants, demolishes the 547,000 sq feet of office space, and then goes TEEMCO. Imagine the impact that would have on downtown. I am not saying I think that will happen, but worst case scenarios have to be considered especially when dealing with a questionable developer who comes in with a "too good to be true" offer (think Gold Dome, possibly Clayco).

I would feel a lot better about this if...

A) There was some transparency
B) The company was a little more reputable

[sooner88]

BTW, to put 547,000 square feet that will be demolished into perspective:

Chase Tower: 514,000 SF
Oklahoma Tower: 568,000 SF

547,000 alone would be the 4th largest office building downtown, behind Devon, Leadership Square and just barely behind OK Tower.

Hypothetically, before the sale happened, would it have been possible for the City to purchase FNC and issue a RFP? And if so, what would have held them back from doing so (high price tag?)?

[Pete]

Hypothetically, before the sale happened, would it have been possible for the City to purchase FNC and issue a RFP? And if so, what would have held them back from doing so (high price tag?)?

They could have bid on it like anyone else or used eminent domain, although the latter is tricky when it comes time to flip the property to a private developer.

Still, it could have been done. Still could be, for that mater, although I don't think that is being considered.

[bchris02]

Is the prospect of the city getting involved being discussed anywhere other than on OKCTalk?

[Pete]

Not in terms of the City actually owning the property, as far as I know.

But the City is going to certainly be investing heavily in this development.

[Just the facts]

I just hope the parking garage does a good job of hiding the fact that it is a parking garage.

[Urban Pioneer]

I guess there will be another demolition approval process, a DDRC hearing, and probably a TIF hearing before the TIF board.

While the mid-block and easternmost buildings areb't exactly Class A office space, their occupancy over the years has helped make Park and Robinson truly the most urbane and pedestrian oriented space in all of Oklahoma City.

We are excited to pierce that intersection with streetcar to help further densify the area and enable even more pedestrian mobilty.

The proposed parking garage appears excessive.

[BoulderSooner]

I guess there will be another demolition approval process, a DDRC hearing, and probably a TIF hearing before the TIF board.

While the mid-block and easternmost buildings areb't exactly Class A office space, their occupancy over the years has helped make Park and Robinson truly the most urbane and pedestrian oriented space in all of Oklahoma City.

We are excited to pierce that intersection with streetcar to help further densify the area and enable even more pedestrian mobilty.

The proposed parking garage appears excessive.

Parking is badly needed and welcome in the CBD

[bchris02]

I just hope the parking garage does a good job of hiding the fact that it is a parking garage.

I agree.

[Urban Pioneer]

Parking is badly needed and welcome in the CBD

Skin garages with usable space then. Really Park Ave is the only true urban "street wall" left. Or... use streetcar to ride in. This particular garage is gargantuan in massing in relationship the property to be occupied.

[Just the facts]

Parking is badly needed and welcome in the CBD

By some.

[mugofbeer]

By some.

Yes. The vast majority of those who fill the office buildings. I share your hope the new downtown housing and offices changes this.

[Teo9969]

Skin garages with usable space then. Really Park Ave is the only true urban "street wall" left. Or... use streetcar to ride in. This particular garage is gargantuan in massing in relationship the property to be occupied.

Every time I walk Park Ave. on that little strip a lot of cognitive dissonance is at play.

[Urbanized]

Honestly the more I think about it the more there should be some effort put into reuniting Main Street Garage and First National Center. I don't disagree that there is some more structured parking needed (and thoughtfully placed) in the CBD, but question if this is the correct location. It is only being driven by the need to provide parking to FNC, not the overall need in downtown.

Besides my concern about the loss of retail frontage on a street that is being positioned as THE retail street in the CBD, I'm also concerned about all of those spaces emptying at 5 PM onto that narrow little street with limited egress at each end. I smell gridlock, and could see traffic engineers using it as an excuse to revert to one way streets around this block, which would be hugely detrimental to its walkable nature.

I'd rather see a parking structure (not affiliated with FNC) be built somewhere bordering/on Sandridge/Kerr Park, and FNC ownership of Main Street Gararge.

[MikeLucky]

I have to give you props.

You tell us you are busting your butt trying to get info about FNC, so you come to OKCtalk to find some (obviously if you are posting here in this thread). Good choice!

Seriously though, we know you work hard & we realize you are hog tied by your employer. OKCtalk almost always have the scoop before what you are allowed to release, but you always have details that OKCtalk doesn't when you finally do print your articles. I think most of us here read basically all of your articles about OKC developments, so I wouldn't say we think you are worthless either. I think we all even enjoy most of what you write & research. A lot of us still feel ill will from when you were bashing this site a couple months ago. I appreciate you not doing it anymore, but you never apologized for it so a bit of the ill will remains.

Keep doing what you do for OKC, its really good for the city. Seriously.

That is the most back handed compliment I've had all week. Bye.

See, this is my problem with Steve. Everyone knows there are different dynamics at play for both Steve and Pete. It's not a secret and it's not really even something that anyone should be ashamed of. Yet, even after a very well worded and very fair post, Steve shows that he has possibly the thinnest skin of any person I've ever known.

There is absolutely no reason why both Pete and Steve's information and sources couldn't be enjoyed in tandem by anyone that is interested. It's not the limitations of the job, shortcomings of the medium, or opinion of your employer that makes me not want to read your articles. It's your reaction to any little criticism and the way you handle yourself that now has me not wanting to read what you write. Just for the record.

[BrettM2]

Honest question, if they retain the east portion of the building for office or other use, with the center portion offering a parking for all of that plus the main tower?

[Teo9969]

Honestly the more I think about it the more there should be some effort put into reuniting Main Street Garage and First National Center. I don't disagree that there is some more structured parking needed (and thoughtfully placed) in the CBD, but question if this is the correct location. It is only being driven by the need to provide parking to FNC, not the overall need in downtown.

Besides my concern about the loss of retail frontage on a street that is being positioned as THE retail street in the CBD, I'm also concerned about all of those spaces emptying at 5 PM onto that narrow little street with limited egress at each end. I smell gridlock, and could see traffic engineers using it as an excuse to revert to one way streets around this block, which would be hugely detrimental to its walkable nature.

I'd rather see a parking structure (not affiliated with FNC) be built somewhere bordering/on Sandridge/Kerr Park, and FNC ownership of Main Street Gararge.

Why would one-way streets be detrimental to walkable nature?

[Plutonic Panda]

Considering NYC is a walkable city and look at their streets

[jccouger]

I think one streets would make a city more walkable (you only have to look in one direction to cross)

Just chalk it up to another failure of Project -180

[hoya]

I think one streets would make a city more walkable (you only have to look in one direction to cross)

Just chalk it up to another failure of Project -180

People drive faster on one way streets. Chalk it up as a success of Project 180.

[Urbanized]

Why would one-way streets be detrimental to walkable nature?

Click on any of the links herein: Google: walkability + one way streets . Watch Jeff Speck's Ted Talk. Read Walkable City. One-way streets are car-centric and don't consider the pedestrian in the least. Simply put, By design they encourage faster driving. They are the antithesis of walkability.

And part of Project 180 included conversion of one-ways to two ways, specifically to enhance walkability. P180 has plenty of failings, but a lack of conversions of two-ways to one-ways is NOT one of them.