LifeChurchTV

[Midtowner]

So you don't like to feel like church is something you're obligated to attend?

I'm not trying to be lawyerly, such a thing would be difficult considering I'm just in my second semester. I'm just trying to get the essence of your opinion. You're being evasive and talking about everything except the question that is being asked.

[OkieBear]

So you don't like to feel like church is something you're obligated to attend?

I'm not trying to be lawyerly, such a thing would be difficult considering I'm just in my second semester. I'm just trying to get the essence of your opinion. You're being evasive and talking about everything except the question that is being asked.

I did answer you. If you look at the first sentence I said I probably would. But you're asking a hypothetical question. I've attended churches out of obligation, which is fine because the bible encourages us to meet together with other believers. But I havent's always enjoyed the services all that much, even though I may have benefitted from them and worshiped God.

So Mid, how do you choose a church to attend? What are your criteria? Do you just go to the one that is closest to where you live? There must be something besides just obligation that keeps you going back.

[Midtowner]

It's always the Catholic Church closest to where I live.

[upisgr8]

Shoot, I'm embarassed for you. You have nothing better to do than get on here and debate people to the ground.

[MadMonk]

I told you he would not be interested, although, he could learn a few things. He has an excuse for everything. Like I said in an earlier post, he doesn't care for religion at all, he just wants to debate someone. He sounds like he doesn't need God in his life????

Would you attend a Catholic service? How about visiting a Synagogue or Mosque? You and Jack's words seem more like disrespectful, bigoted attacks on other religions rather than reasoned arguments for your own. How very Christian of you.

[Patrick]

And osupa05 is right about Craig's preaching. He keeps it simple so unchurched and seeking people can understand it, but he doesn't water it down. I am challenged every week by Craig's message and the follow-up in my Life Group.

Craig reminds me a lot of Joel Osteen. Problem with both is that in the midst of keeping it simple, you're simply not getting a lot of Biblical meat. I think staying at Life Church any longer than a year after you'e saved would really stifle your growth as a Christian. There simply isn't a lot of room to grow there, when the pastor doesn't dive very deep into the word.

[Patrick]

Would you attend a Catholic service? How about visiting a Synagogue or Mosque? You and Jack's words seem more like disrespectful, bigoted attacks on other religions rather than reasoned arguments for your own. How very Christian of you.

I personally wouldn't attend a Synagogue or Mosque, because they're not of the Christian faith. I have attended both the Catholic church and Orthodox church many times though. Although I like a more dynamic pastor that preaches on things more relevant to mylife, I have no problem with what those more reverent churches are doing. I applaud their desire to maintain the reverence of God in their services, instead of giving way to a "feel good" culture that drives to be entertained.

[Patrick]

Again, there's a question here that really hasn't been answered. Would the 10,000+ people keep attending LC if they did away with the rock band and the coffee shop every Sunday? That goes a long ways to telling you whether people are really there to worship God and learn more about God, or whether they're just their to be entertained, and meet people.

[Patrick]

I did answer you. If you look at the first sentence I said I probably would. But you're asking a hypothetical question. I've attended churches out of obligation, which is fine because the bible encourages us to meet together with other believers. But I havent's always enjoyed the services all that much, even though I may have benefitted from them and worshiped God.

So Mid, how do you choose a church to attend? What are your criteria? Do you just go to the one that is closest to where you live? There must be something besides just obligation that keeps you going back.

For me, I pick a church where I mostly agree with their doctrine. Also, I pick a church where I feel I can grow in the faith. I never cared for LC because I felt it was all about "feel good stuff." Doesn't really dive deep into learning the Word of God. Isn't the reason why we go to church to learn about God and worship him? Meeting other folks and socializing shouldn't even be a top priority, although I agree that fellowship is important.

By the way, my sister-in-law and her husband recently left Henderson Hills for St. Elijah's Eastern Orthodox Church. In a way I can't blame them. They were getting tired of the entertainment show every Sunday at Henderson Hills. I guess the final straw was that they started having private baptismal services where you could basically get baptized without anyone there in the audience. It was supposed to accomodate shy people. I also disagree with that. Part of the purpose of baptism is to publiucly make it known to be people that you've given your life to Christ. Christ said, accept me before men, and I'll accept you before my father in heaven. Deny me before men, and I'll deny you before my Father in heaven. Part of salvation is making public the decision that you've made, in front of witnesses.

[Patrick]

I think the personal attacks on Jack need to stop. Although the guy is a little out there in some of his posts, he's entitled to make them. Calling him names like this is a violation of the TOS of OKCTalk.

[OkieBear]

Again, there's a question here that really hasn't been answered. Would the 10,000+ people keep attending LC if they did away with the rock band and the coffee shop every Sunday? That goes a long ways to telling you whether people are really there to worship God and learn more about God, or whether they're just their to be entertained, and meet people.

Tell you what, Patrick. I'll try to survey the 10K people who attend LC and get a consensus for you. Do you just go to the nearest church that preaches what you believe, or do you have preferences of what type of worship you like or don't like?

You guys don't seem to get it, and apparently never will, that there are personal preferences in how each person wants to worship. I happen to love the music and teaching at Life. If you don't, that's fine. As for not being able to grow in my relationship to God, that just isn't true. I've been a Christian for most of my life, but I've grown more since I started at LC than in the 40 years previous. The key is to not just be a consumer and sit in the experiences every week. Craig strongly encourages every person to get involved in a ministry, in missions and in a Life Group. That is where you really grow, because the small groups allow you to take Craig's teaching and get in deep with others. In fact, to be a member, you have to agree to serve somewhere and be involved in a Life Group.

[OkieBear]

Although I like a more dynamic pastor that preaches on things more relevant to mylife, I have no problem with what those more reverent churches are doing. I applaud their desire to maintain the reverence of God in their services, instead of giving way to a "feel good" culture that drives to be entertained.

Why do you like a more dynamic pastor? Are they more entertaining? Do they hold your attention better? How is that different from taking it a step further and going somewhere that has more exciting music? None of us defending LC have said we have a problem with more reverent churches. I've maintained all along that the type of worship you choose is a personal preference. It's you guys who are saying that LC is somehow wrong, and that people ONLY go there for the music and atmosphere and "feel good" preaching.

[gbyte]

Personally I've thought about attending LifeChurch before mostly because there is a huge lack of people around my age in alot of churches (at least the ones I visited). I know there is supposedly a big group of the late 20s that attend there but the size of the church also makes me wonder especially as I've never cared too much for the places that often use contemporary music or the "show" type of feel.

I think the biggest thing which I dislike of almost all churches is that for those that are just by themselves often times they try to make you feel welcome by going up shaking your hand and asking a few questions about you, most of them never really ever seem to want to know more about you. This type of ordeal has actually made me stop looking for a church for awhile and while I wouldn't mind going out and trying out some other services it just isn't very fun to go to different churches to end up sitting by yourself and just get the polite chatter but nothing else from it. I mean the idea behind the church is to be able to go and give praise to God and Jesus, help strengthen our faith, and also meet others that will not just show up for the services and a few other events but people that will actually become friends with (to help us in times of need or just to go do things with people of similar interests / beliefs).

I guess you can say I've gotten bitter for awhile over this but I know this seems to be a problem in alot of the traditional style churches and I've gotten irritated from some of the more contemporary by the sheer number of hypocritical people I've seen at a few of the ones I've been to. Also the point of going by yourself to a new church isn't always easy to try and fit in with most of the places out there it seems.

From the posts I've read it seems like the "life groups" are a thing towards the right direction in growing your faith (as most of it does need to happen outside of just regular services) but I have seen some of these backfire in other places and some of them are a bit too pushy also (don't know about the ones associated with LifeChurch myself).


Patrick,

As far as the public baptism goes that is one thing I've hated about every church. From what you have stated I don't believe it is the baptism itself that needs to be public but the person's belief is what should be known and portrayed not only by their words but their actions. But alas that is just my interpretation itself especially as I have always been very shy and it shouldn't matter to other people if I have been baptised or not as long as my actions and words are true.

[OkieBear]

gbyte, I think you should try LC. And don't just go for one week, but give it some time. I definitely understand where you're coming from as far as being alone at a new church, and having a hard time meeting people. But I've been in much smaller churches where it was equally difficult to meet people. I wanted to get involved in a Life Group shortly after I started but was really intimidated, so I just went on the website and signed up for any group, and let God place me where he wanted me to be. It was one of the best decisions I've ever made. I got into an amazing group of people who are such a blessing to me. We have grown to be really good friends, and it's been an awesome experience. There are groups for all ages, singles, married, mixed, etc. There are Access Life Groups where people meet to bike or do outdoor sports or other areas of common interest. There are just so many opportunities if you want to find them. Check out the website (www.lifechurch.tv) and surf around.

There is also something called Mosaic on Tuesday nights. This is a college and singles night where they start out with group fellowship and then break up into smaller groups for bible study. I have friends who go every week and love it (I have my life group that night). It gives you a chance to get to know people better. I suggest going for a few weeks, talking to the people at the info desk (if you go to the N. Penn location, it's what they refer to as the "Airline Ticket Counter") and seeing where you might be able to get involved. With a church the size of LC, involvement is key to developing relationships. Good luck! Come back here with any questions you have.

[Patrick]

Do you just go to the nearest church that preaches what you believe, or do you have preferences of what type of worship you like or don't like?

I already answered this question.

You guys don't seem to get it, and apparently never will, that there are personal preferences in how each person wants to worship. I happen to love the music and teaching at Life. If you don't, that's fine. As for not being able to grow in my relationship to God, that just isn't true. I've been a Christian for most of my life, but I've grown more since I started at LC than in the 40 years previous. The key is to not just be a consumer and sit in the experiences every week. Craig strongly encourages every person to get involved in a ministry, in missions and in a Life Group. That is where you really grow, because the small groups allow you to take Craig's teaching and get in deep with others. In fact, to be a member, you have to agree to serve somewhere and be involved in a Life Group.

Again, answer my question. Would you go there if it wasn't for the band?

Do you think going bare foot on stage, throwing pop corn across the audience, etc. is very respectful to God?

[Patrick]

Why do you like a more dynamic pastor? Are they more entertaining? Do they hold your attention better? How is that different from taking it a step further and going somewhere that has more exciting music? None of us defending LC have said we have a problem with more reverent churches. I've maintained all along that the type of worship you choose is a personal preference. It's you guys who are saying that LC is somehow wrong, and that people ONLY go there for the music and atmosphere and "feel good" preaching.

I don't think what Life Church is doing is wrong. What I'm saying is that many of the people that go there aren't going for God, they're going for the band...to be entertained. That's the wrong reason to go to church, and God will not bless that.

By dynamic pastor, I mean someone I can learn the meat of the word from. No, not someone that is entertaining. In fact, I actually learn more from pastors that dig deep down into the word, not those that get up and tell a funny story to keep your attention.

Again, my main problem with LC isn't the preaching, it's the disrespect. I've already gone through that.

[Patrick]

Patrick,

As far as the public baptism goes that is one thing I've hated about every church. From what you have stated I don't believe it is the baptism itself that needs to be public but the person's belief is what should be known and portrayed not only by their words but their actions. But alas that is just my interpretation itself especially as I have always been very shy and it shouldn't matter to other people if I have been baptised or not as long as my actions and words are true.

If you won't go public before men in your testimony of Christ through baptism, whose to say you're going to have the ability to stick to preaching your faith when things get difficult. Just look at Peter...he denied Christ 3 times. Part of salvation is the public profession that you are indeed saved. I've already stated the scripture on that.

If you're ashamed to proclaim Christ before men, Christ will deny you before the Father in heaven.

[Patrick]

Personally I've thought about attending LifeChurch before mostly because there is a huge lack of people around my age in alot of churches (at least the ones I visited). I know there is supposedly a big group of the late 20s that attend there but the size of the church also makes me wonder especially as I've never cared too much for the places that often use contemporary music or the "show" type of feel.

That's another problem I have with LC. It's pretty much all young people. Where the wisdom in the church? I know age doesn't always mean wisdom, but in most aspects it does.

I think the biggest thing which I dislike of almost all churches is that for those that are just by themselves often times they try to make you feel welcome by going up shaking your hand and asking a few questions about you, most of them never really ever seem to want to know more about you. This type of ordeal has actually made me stop looking for a church for awhile and while I wouldn't mind going out and trying out some other services it just isn't very fun to go to different churches to end up sitting by yourself and just get the polite chatter but nothing else from it. I mean the idea behind the church is to be able to go and give praise to God and Jesus, help strengthen our faith, and also meet others that will not just show up for the services and a few other events but people that will actually become friends with (to help us in times of need or just to go do things with people of similar interests / beliefs).

I think they're simply trying to make you feel welcome. Not put you on the spot. Funny that you mention this, because most of the time I hear exactly the opposite....most people get upset when no one talks to them, and they feel ignored.

I guess you can say I've gotten bitter for awhile over this but I know this seems to be a problem in alot of the traditional style churches and I've gotten irritated from some of the more contemporary by the sheer number of hypocritical people I've seen at a few of the ones I've been to. Also the point of going by yourself to a new church isn't always easy to try and fit in with most of the places out there it seems.

Hypocrites are everywhere, and at every church. LC has their own share. Last time I was there, there was a group of guys out in the parking lot drinking up a 12 pack. Strangely, this is the same group of guys I saw worshipping earlier. Now, I don't judge them for what they're doing, but I think it does look hypocritical.

From the posts I've read it seems like the "life groups" are a thing towards the right direction in growing your faith (as most of it does need to happen outside of just regular services) but I have seen some of these backfire in other places and some of them are a bit too pushy also (don't know about the ones associated with LifeChurch myself).

Life Groups are actually the best part of the Life Church. That's the place where you really connect with people, and hopefully where you can learn more about the Word. If you're only going to the service, you're not getting very deep.

[Patrick]

By the way, I don't want people to think I dislike LC. Quite the opposite. I've steered many lost people there, simply because I feel Craig is very basic in his preaching (Craig has said before he preaches on a 5th grade level), and it's a great place for people that aren't very educated in the Bible, to learn.


I just think there comes a point where you grow past that point, and have to move on. It's like graduating from elementary school.

[OkieBear]

I already answered this question.



Again, answer my question. Would you go there if it wasn't for the band?

Do you think going bare foot on stage, throwing pop corn across the audience, etc. is very respectful to God?

I answered the first part of the question for Mid a few posts back. As for the barefoot and popcorn throwing incident, I didn't witness them so I can't speak directly to those issues. I don't condone throwing food in church but I won't condemn a whole church over the actions of a relatively few people.

[Jack]

From LC's website:

What is Baptism?

A Step of Obedience
"Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. But John tried to deter him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?" Jesus replied, "Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness." - Matthew 3:13-16
Even Jesus submitted to baptism to "fulfill all righteousness" or do everything that is right.
A Symbol of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ
".don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with Him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. If we have been united with Him like this in His death, we will certainly also be united with Him in His resurrection. For we know that our old self was crucified with Him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin." Romans 6:3-11
Just as Christ gave His life for us and died, we have also given our lives, and our old self, the person we were before we met Christ, is dead. Just as Christ was resurrected from death, we too come out of the symbolic grave of baptism and are raised to become a new person.
A Statement of Commitment
".if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved." Romans 10:9-10
When we confess with our mouth that we believe and trust in Christ we make a statement of faith. Baptism is also a public statement that we have surrendered our lives to Christ and we believe in Him. It is similar to a marriage ceremony. You can tell someone you love them and want them to be your partner for life but a marriage ceremony makes a public statement of what is already in your heart.
"If anyone publicly acknowledges me here on earth, I will openly acknowledge that person before my Father in heaven." Matthew 10:32-33 In summary, baptism is a necessary step of obedience for every follower of Christ. It symbolizes what has happened in our hearts as we give our lives to Christ just as He gave his life for us. After Christ gave His life He was buried and then later raised from the dead as a new person. We too are symbolically buried in a grave of water and come out of the water a new person. We are declaring to the world that we belong to Christ and He is our Lord and Savior.
For a list of Frequently Asked Questions about Baptism, click here

[Jack]

This makes LC looks like it's all about fun and games. From their website:

About Worship
We're confident when you come to Life, you will leave saying "I didn't know church could be like that - so fun, so moving." From music you might hear on the radio to teaching that is relevant, LifeChurch.tv is a unique, fresh approach to church.

[OkieBear]

Hypocrites are everywhere, and at every church. LC has their own share. Last time I was there, there was a group of guys out in the parking lot drinking up a 12 pack. Strangely, this is the same group of guys I saw worshipping earlier. Now, I don't judge them for what they're doing, but I think it does look hypocritical.

So Patrick, you think drinking in and of itself is always wrong then, correct?

The way I see it, that would only be hypocritical of those guys if they said drinking was wrong, then went ahead and did it. They may not see anything wrong with drinking, and there are many schools of thought on that within the Christian community. But that's a topic for another thread.

[Patrick]

No drinking isn't wrong, but gobbling down can after can and getting drunk like these guys were doing was wrong. They were also smoking at the same time.

This is at the same time while Craig has preached against this.

[OkieBear]

No drinking isn't wrong, but gobbling down can after can and getting drunk like these guys were doing was wrong. They were also smoking at the same time.

This is at the same time while Craig has preached against this.

So smoking in and of itself is a sin?

From what I've heard Craig preach (most recent Q&A), he has never condemned drinking. He does say, like the bible says, that getting drunk is a sin. He also said, like the bible says, that it may not be beneficial or edifying, and if it causes someone to stumble, then it is wrong. I think the guys showed very poor judgement in where they did it, and clearly they caused you to stumble, but again, that is a few people.