Spring Creek Plaza

[bchris02]

I wish they would name the anchors too. I know there is both a grocery and a theater in the plans but no known specifics. This is close to my mother's and grandmother's house so we are interested in moving there to be near them. I hope it passes. It will be unique in Oklahoma.

I agree.

For whatever reason, Tulsa also missed out on the lifestyle center boom in the 2000s. They have Utica Square but that isn't a modern lifestyle center like this will be. Developments like this are a dime-a-dozen in many other cities.

Hopefully this passes as it will be great to finally have something like this here.

[Zorba]

I have been actively involved in this and it's looking more and more like this will get voted down. Chalk it up as another cool development in Edmond that won't happen.

I'm not happy about the fanancial assistance from the city, but I want to see how much. For now, I want this approved and then if they ask too much, something can be done later.

What will actually happen is they will rezone it, this developer won't like the financial plan, walk away and something way worse will be built, so we'd end up with a poorer development and still take the major impact to Hafer park. Considering, from my understanding, this just rezones it with the hopes it will be what is proposed, but it could end up being something completely different.

[Zorba]

Have any names been named in terms of retailers that will anchor this if its approved? I think if major retailers behind it were known, it might give some people more confidence to vote Yes. I can understand the worry that if this passes, it will get built and then they will have trouble filling it. This happened quite often in the late 2000s in other cities when they were building these things left and right.

I think the OKC metro needs at least one of these types of developments. Most cities had them a decade ago now. If this fails, there is still the Classen Curve expansion but that is also under NIMBY assault.

Chisholm Creek is supposed to be a lifestyle center as well, but considering they haven't really started on that section yet, I am guessing they don't think it would fill up if they built it right now. But again, there are tons of places this could be built in Edmond that would not affect a major city park. They could also redevelop one of the many almost completely empty developments in the area.

I think one of the major problems with retail in the OKC metro is how shotgunned all over it is. There aren't many major clumps of commercial space, like even Tulsa has. Chisholm Creek will help with that issue, this development wouldn't, which is part of the reason I don't really believe that it would bring in a ton of new-to-market shops. Maybe a few restaurants, but otherwise it'll most just cannibalize other retail locations in Edmond.

Wife and I are voting yes. So are all of our immediate neighbors and we live pretty close to this. I'm excited for this to be approved. The 'there is an abundance of empty retail spots already in Edmond' doesn't fly with me when you're talking about this type of development.

The retail market appears to be in a contraction mode right now, there is currently a massive amount of retail already being built on the North side of the metro, including at least one other, larger, life style center. I just don't buy the pie in the sky belief that this will really bring in a lot of unique tenant and that it won't just cannibalize other locations while sitting fairly empty 20 years from now, while Hafer will be scared forever.

Maybe I don't buy it, because when I lived in Cincinnati there were developments all over like this, that were half empty before the bust came and mostly or completely empty after the bust.

[Plutonic Panda]

I don't know why you say that. I've not seen much momentum for a no vote. In fact I got a flyer in the mail yesterday promoting a yes vote, which is the only campaigning I've seen (if folks want I'll scan it and post ). I've been pushing a yes here and on the Edmond subreddit and with this being a mayor and sheriff election I think the turnout will be decent.

I hope you're right and I'm wrong. I just have a bad feeling.

[Plutonic Panda]

I wish they would name the anchors too. I know there is both a grocery and a theater in the plans but no known specifics. This is close to my mother's and grandmother's house so we are interested in moving there to be near them. I hope it passes. It will be unique in Oklahoma.

Don't you think it would be hard to get any confirmed anchors to sign on without a guarantee it will happen though? I believe if this gets passed, they still have a few things they have iron out such as landscaping and more details on the traffic improvements not to mention the assistance they're wanting from the city.

Now the assistance part is what would cause me to immediately be against this if they try and take advantage of the city which at that point I think the city should walk away as Edmond doesn't "need" this and a development like this is inevitable somewhere around Edmond at some point.

The renderings seem to indicate a Cost Plus or Trader Joe's and Crate & Barrel. I am eager to know the tenants as well.

[Plutonic Panda]

What will actually happen is they will rezone it, this developer won't like the financial plan, walk away and something way worse will be built, so we'd end up with a poorer development and still take the major impact to Hafer park. Considering, from my understanding, this just rezones it with the hopes it will be what is proposed, but it could end up being something completely different.

Hmmm. Not sure about that. I guess it seems like a possibility but you can't walk around with your tail tucked between your legs everywhere. This area is getting developed no matter what. I'd rather see more retail come to Edmond and if this ends up being a shoddy development as others up their game which has been happening then this will get redeveloped. But I just don't forsee that happening.

I'm more worried about this failing and typical tract housing getting built here than the scenario you laid out.

[Plutonic Panda]

Zorba, in what ways do you envision this affecting Hafer Park because that is a vague term. It can be affected in a good way or a bad way but people need to be more specific.

[bchris02]

Zorba does have some good points. My opinion is that major sought after new-to-market retailers will be much more likely to concentrate on Penn Square Mall and the Classen Curve expansion if the NIMBYs ever give up on that than something in Edmond. However, I still hope this passes and I think it does have potential. It will probably end up restaurant focused with some boutique shops and a few national retailers. That's how these types of developments have typically ended up in other cities when built out away from major retail corridors.

[Plutonic Panda]

Zorba, I would reccomend checking this read out. It contains a lot of good info.

http://edmondactive.com/around-edmon...-consequences/

[Spartan]

I understand the empty retail argument, except this is such a unique development it doesn't apply here.

Honestly OKC needs a bunch of empty retail. Stop supporting shoddy establishments and developers will stop building them en masse.

[onthestrip]

If you can't make your business plan work without corporate welfare, you probably don't have a very strong business plan. We don't need more whiny companies with their hands out.

There is already a ton of empty retail space around town, including at Spring Creek. This development could also be built many places that would not affect Hafer Park or any other park. I'd probably be fine with it, if it included a buffer, but I don't think it is worth giving up the quality of our parks for what will end up most likely being another half empty development in 20 years.

I am very much in favor of the concept and wish we got more Life Style development than endless tracts of strip centers, I just don't think it should be done at the expense of the park. For example, I live across the street from Coffee Creek Golf Course, I'd be completely fine if they put this on that corner.

I've been critical of many, if not most, projects in and around OKC that have received incentives and subsidies. But sometimes it is the reality for some things to happen. Edmond gave $5million to an entertainment and movie theater (ShowBiz) just recently, and the city doesnt even get taxes on kids playing games. Not to mention over $10 million for a hotel and convention center. Which again, would pale in comparison of sales taxes it would bring in that a large lifestyle center would. So Edmond has set the precedent, and for far more questionable projects imo.

Regarding the vacancies, this new center would have no bearing on the vacant space around town. That will remain regardless of whether this gets built or not. The retailers that would look to go here wouldnt consider for a second to locate at the various strip centers throughout Edmond. Urban Outfitters or Victorias Secret arent taking the vacant space at 2nd and Santa Fe.

As for the park, I just dont see how this is going to harm Hafer Park. I think they will actually benefit each other, shoppers can stroll through the park, park people or little league baseball families can walk to the center to eat and shop. The park will actually get utilized more. Seeing buildings from a park isnt harmful to the park, it certainly hasnt made Central Park undesirable. A wide and wooded creek will continue to provide an adequate buffer between the two.

[bchris02]

These days I tend to be against incentives for chain retailers to open locations here, such as Cabela's and Bass Pro. If those chain retailers really thought OKC was a good market to be in, they would open a location here without being paid to do so. However, I think incentives can be justified for larger developments, especially if they are unique to OKC. I think this fits, as OKC has needed a development like this for a long time.

[Rom]

I've been critical of many, if not most, projects in and around OKC that have received incentives and subsidies. But sometimes it is the reality for some things to happen. Edmond gave $5million to an entertainment and movie theater (ShowBiz) just recently, and the city doesnt even get taxes on kids playing games. Not to mention over $10 million for a hotel and convention center. Which again, would pale in comparison of sales taxes it would bring in that a large lifestyle center would. So Edmond has set the precedent, and for far more questionable projects imo.

Regarding the vacancies, this new center would have no bearing on the vacant space around town. That will remain regardless of whether this gets built or not. The retailers that would look to go here wouldnt consider for a second to locate at the various strip centers throughout Edmond. Urban Outfitters or Victorias Secret arent taking the vacant space at 2nd and Santa Fe.

As for the park, I just dont see how this is going to harm Hafer Park. I think they will actually benefit each other, shoppers can stroll through the park, park people or little league baseball families can walk to the center to eat and shop. The park will actually get utilized more. Seeing buildings from a park isnt harmful to the park, it certainly hasnt made Central Park undesirable. A wide and wooded creek will continue to provide an adequate buffer between the two.

Great post!
It will be a shame and extremely disappointing and ignorant for Edmond if this proposal fails tomorrow.

[jerrywall]

Unfortunately, Edmond has an extremely low bar to get a referendum called. It's a double edged sword. Only 690 signatures were required to get this on a ballot to block the rezoning, and they got a little over 800 IIRC. So it's really going to be a turnout game.

Based on conversations on Nextdoor, the majority seem to support this development, but who knows if they'll vote.

[Plutonic Panda]

I just went and looked over their website looking at pretty much every development they have or at least have listed and they not only do a really good job at making their online directory & website super clean and easy to use but they have very little vacancies.

They also have some great stores/restaurants such as Bonefish Grill, Apple, Brooks Brothers, Belk, Cost Plus World Market, Rocky Mountian Chocolate, Sees Candies, and a lot of their developments had national retailers that were unique to each development so I'm pretty confident Edmond could get something really cool out of this if it passes.

[jerrywall]

https://theoklahomabreeze.com/2017/0...-consequences/

I disagree with some of the author's perceptions but this is relevant.

[bucktalk]

I know this development isn't as large as Penn Sq. But for some reason I think of how bad traffic is at Penn Sq (especially around Christmas) and can't help but think how bad traffic would be around 15th and Bryant. This traffic would not only be due to retail but also the apartment residents. Knowing that area is limited to road expansion (15ht or Bryant) it just seems like a train wreck with potential traffic problems.

[Plutonic Panda]

I know this development isn't as large as Penn Sq. But for some reason I think of how bad traffic is at Penn Sq (especially around Christmas) and can't help but think how bad traffic would be around 15th and Bryant. This traffic would not only be due to retail but also the apartment residents. Knowing that area is limited to road expansion (15ht or Bryant) it just seems like a train wreck with potential traffic problems.

These streets have plenty of ROW to be expanded to six lanes. The current 4 and 5 lane areas are more than sufficient to handle the current traffic.

I think people need to get over this small town mentality that there will only be a handful of cars at each intersection. Just because there are more than that, doesn't mean traffic is bad.

[jerrywall]

I know this development isn't as large as Penn Sq. But for some reason I think of how bad traffic is at Penn Sq (especially around Christmas) and can't help but think how bad traffic would be around 15th and Bryant. This traffic would not only be due to retail but also the apartment residents. Knowing that area is limited to road expansion (15ht or Bryant) it just seems like a train wreck with potential traffic problems.

The EEDA puts current traffic counts there at 43,850. Even if the 13k increase that the No No's are predicting occurs, you're still talking less than 60k. Yeah, it won't be empty, will still have a lower traffic count than 33rd and Broadway or 15th and Broadway. There may be times that it will be packed, but not as bad as some are predicting (and not significantly more than now - might even be better with turn lanes and such.)

[Plutonic Panda]

The EEDA puts current traffic counts there at 43,850. Even if the 13k increase that the No No's are predicting occurs, you're still talking less than 60k. Yeah, it won't be empty, will still have a lower traffic count than 33rd and Broadway or 15th and Broadway. There may be times that it will be packed, but not as bad as some are predicting (and not significantly more than now - might even be better with turn lanes and such.)

I think the current infrastructure coupled with the planned upgrades are sufficient for awhile. I don't think you'd need to worry about adding more through lanes on this street until it hits 80k per day.

[jerrywall]

Bleh. Not looking good.

[BBatesokc]

Bleh. Not looking good.

I agree - the No-No's Win-Win.

[Rom]

Pure ignorance

[gopokes88]

Wow. F*ck Edmond. I'm surrounded by idiots.

[Plutonic Panda]

Yeah it's not happening.