Oklahoma Passenger Rail Updates(non-HSR)

[BoulderSooner]

Thanks for explaining. That makes sense.

[Johnb911]

I will personally be very interested in taking a train to Kansas City. Lots of friends/family, plus Union Station is in the middle of some great stuff, and now that they have the street car going all the way north to downtown, it would be pretty easy to get around. Plus travel time/cost would be more comparable to driving.

Only hindrance there is again the travel times. I could get used to sleeping on a train if necessary, but I don't want to hang out for 45 minutes at 2 am waiting for a train

[T. Jamison]

Watco Calls for Passenger Rail Operator.pdf

[BG918]

I will personally be very interested in taking a train to Kansas City. Lots of friends/family, plus Union Station is in the middle of some great stuff, and now that they have the street car going all the way north to downtown, it would be pretty easy to get around. Plus travel time/cost would be more comparable to driving.

Only hindrance there is again the travel times. I could get used to sleeping on a train if necessary, but I don't want to hang out for 45 minutes at 2 am waiting for a train

Kansas City would be a great destination for a train ride. The streetcar stops at Union Station so you can easily get downtown and with the planned extension also get to Westport and the Plaza in a few years.

[catch22]

I hope they are serious about this and don’t force it into failing. Round trip service at 2am and 4am LOL.

[baralheia]

I hope they are serious about this and don’t force it into failing. Round trip service at 2am and 4am LOL.

I hope so too. That said, Forrest Bennett, on Facebook (IIRC), mentioned that this RFP includes a 10 year contract obligation. That, combined with financial expenditure requirements from the sale agreement, tells me that WATCO is unlikely to be playing games here. They're required to spend a minimum of $2.1 million on improvements to the line specifically to support passenger service, and if they fail to meet their obligations to actually begin passenger operations, they stand to lose just over $3 million in penalties ($2.8 MM for failure to begin regular service, and up to $210,000 for failure to invest in passenger-specific improvements). They are also subject to a "claw-back" provision where ODOT can take back passenger service rights over the line if WATCO fails to fulfill their passenger obligations.

[mugofbeer]

That service would be excellent. KC may be in my future and I would love a rail option back to OKC.

[Urban Pioneer]

The problem will all of these attempts at rail service has been Tulsa itself. Politically, those who have the influence to make it happen arenÂ’t interested in rail service to OKC. The new mayor GT Bynum has professed his belief that autonomous cars will solve the public transit problem although there is no details to any of these proclamations .

The line itself needs additional upgrades to make it semi-competitive with the turnpike in terms of speed. The route is definitely not a straight shot.

At best this line is for nostalgia, for those who need to get between cities and donÂ’t care about timeliness, or for those who do not have a choice. The bus connections at each end are ludicrous.

if Tulsa did put the goodwill effort forth, I think there would be a greater push to bring the train directly into Santa Fe Station.

[mugofbeer]

Thats why things like this should be done above the city level. If Tulsa doesn't want to play, then Wichita will and the line can parallel I35

[BG918]

The problem will all of these attempts at rail service has been Tulsa itself. Politically, those who have the influence to make it happen arenÂ’t interested in rail service to OKC. The new mayor GT Bynum has professed his belief that autonomous cars will solve the public transit problem although there is no details to any of these proclamations .

The line itself needs additional upgrades to make it semi-competitive with the turnpike in terms of speed. The route is definitely not a straight shot.

At best this line is for nostalgia, for those who need to get between cities and donÂ’t care about timeliness, or for those who do not have a choice. The bus connections at each end are ludicrous.

if Tulsa did put the goodwill effort forth, I think there would be a greater push to bring the train directly into Santa Fe Station.

While still not exactly a major proponent GT Bynum is receptive per the TW article:

Tulsa Mayor G.T. Bynum, who had not yet taken office during the initial discussion to establish a train station in downtown, indicated in a statement that he is receptive to the idea.

“In the 21st Century, both cities — and our state — will benefit from improved connectivity between Tulsa and Oklahoma City,” Bynum said. “I continue to support the concept of passenger rail service as one strategy in improving that connectivity, and am eager to see what proposals Watco receives in response to this request.”

What is David Holt’s stance on OKC-Tulsa rail? It’s just as important to get the train to Santa Fe Depot as it is to downtown Tulsa. I really hope they can find a way to utilize Union Depot in Tulsa though.

[shawnw]

Neither mayor can _make_ the railroads grant access to their rail to get to the stations, no matter how much they want it.

[Swake]

While still not exactly a major proponent GT Bynum is receptive per the TW article:


What is David Holt’s stance on OKC-Tulsa rail? It’s just as important to get the train to Santa Fe Depot as it is to downtown Tulsa. I really hope they can find a way to utilize Union Depot in Tulsa though.

Tulsa also passed funds as part of Vision Tulsa for a multi-modal rail hub downtown.

What else is Tulsa supposed to do? I mean it's only been 20 years and five mayors since the state has been promising to extend rail service to Tulsa.

[baralheia]

Neither mayor can _make_ the railroads grant access to their rail to get to the stations, no matter how much they want it.

Perhaps not the mayors, but the state can - at minimum for the Tulsa area. When BNSF sold the Sooner Sub to ODOT back in the late 90's, BNSF granted a 99-year passenger rights easement on the Creek Sub to get any potential passenger trains from the end of the Sooner Sub in Sapulpa through Cherokee Yard into downtown Tulsa. This easement allows for up to two passenger trains daily in each direction. Additional capacity is likely possible but would have to be negotiated with BNSF.

In OKC, Union Pacific owns the track from the AOK/SLWC junction near NE 4th and Sunnylane west through Harter Yard, through the rail corridor separating Bricktown from Deep Deuce, to the BNSF viaduct. In the past, UP was receptive to the idea of making access to Santa Fe Station possible for eastern trains, or at least working on a feasibility study for such with the City of OKC. I know the city authorized up to $50,000 for this study to be paid to UP back in 2015, but after Iowa Pacific began to self-destruct and put the Eastern Flyer on hold, I believe the City put a hold on that study as well. I certainly haven't heard of any findings from that.

[soonerfan_in_okc]

The problem will all of these attempts at rail service has been Tulsa itself. Politically, those who have the influence to make it happen arenÂ’t interested in rail service to OKC. The new mayor GT Bynum has professed his belief that autonomous cars will solve the public transit problem although there is no details to any of these proclamations .

The line itself needs additional upgrades to make it semi-competitive with the turnpike in terms of speed. The route is definitely not a straight shot.

At best this line is for nostalgia, for those who need to get between cities and donÂ’t care about timeliness, or for those who do not have a choice. The bus connections at each end are ludicrous.

if Tulsa did put the goodwill effort forth, I think there would be a greater push to bring the train directly into Santa Fe Station.

correct me if I’m wrong, but where has OKC leadership said they’d get it past Del city? I don't see any goodwill being putforth by OKC. When one city ponies up $$ to connect it to downtown I’m sure the other would, but nothing will get done if its a "wait until the other guy goes first" atmosphere.. I am not worried about Tulsa. Mayor Bynum is about as for public transit as it gets, and I doubt his belief in autonomous vehicles will eliminate any willingness to invest in other modes of transportation. He is all for the new Bus Rapid Transit system going in, expanded bus service, etc.

[Urban Pioneer]

I am not worried about Tulsa. Mayor Bynum is about as for public transit as it gets, and I doubt his belief in autonomous vehicles will eliminate any willingness to invest in other modes of transportation. He is all for the new Bus Rapid Transit system going in, expanded bus service, etc.

Transcript from KRMG late last year after he was elected. I believe there are more comments about this that have been made by him on Twitter and in other mediums. Let's say his support is lukewarm at best. I think that would be fair. It is certainly not focused support that will actually get it politically done. I have not heard of any substantial plans to spend money on any significant transit initiatives beyond the "BRT" plans.

33:25 in the audio stream...

Dan Potter: Let's move off that just for a second and talk about something I kind of expected to hear a little bit about in your speech yesterday and I didn't. Let's talk about rail transportation between Tulsa and Oklahoma City. Its a vision, its a dream that many people have had for decades now. Is there annnyyy movement... is it gonna happen?

Mayor Bynum: You know, there has been discussion around that for years and different options have been floated, and I am certainly supportive of the state doing that if they want to... the concern that I have as the Mayor of Tulsa, one, and I... there are two issues here.

One, connectivity between Oklahoma City and Tulsa. I think that is of crucial importance in the 21st Century. I think that is the, if you will... the term that is utilized in urban strategy is megaregion. That's our megaregion; Tulsa Oklahoma City mega region. And anything we can do to be tying those two together is incredibly important.

The question is, 'how do you do that?' And the reality is there is tremendous disruption occurring right now in the world of transit.

I was just at an international meeting of mayors last week. And the reality is, everyone around the world now is talking about autonomous vehicles. This is not some si-fi study where it might happen, you know, decades in the future. Companies are planning right now for that to be something that happens in over the next couple of decades.

And so what we don't want to do is be the last two cities in America that make the massive infrastructure investment in something that is an outmoded source of transportation, when the new wave is coming right in. And so, that is where my hesitancy and concern around it... it isn't about connectivity between the two, its about what the best means of that is.

The other issue is... is even... let's just say nothing changes in transportation over the next two decades, is rail the best vehicle? Well, were' getting ready to install bus rapid transit lines in Tulsa right now. And the reality is rail has a lot of romance around it, people love the idea of rail, but bus rapid transit is a much more efficient means of transporting people back and forth than rail is... that's something that you see cities in other parts of the world have embraced and we are doing here in Tulsa.

So, I love the folks that are ambitious about this and are pushing it... I love that the discussion is occurring... but I do have concerns about whether or not we would want to make that kind of capital investment and operating investment at a time when there is so much transition occurring in the transportation area.

Dan Potter: Gotta go to a break here but real quick, but there has been a meme that has been making its way around social media pointing up a 1996 state law that Oklahoma [City] and Tulsa must have passenger rail service between the two cities but there's no deadline on that law, are you aware of the law?

Mayor Bynum: I have heard that referenced, but that's not been part of any of the discussions that we have been having at the city...

Dan Potter: It seems like a very bizarre, very strange law to have with no deadline on it.

Mayor Bynum: And again that connectivity is very important, there's no question there.

[Urban Pioneer]

correct me if I’m wrong, but where has OKC leadership said they’d get it past Del city? I don't see any goodwill being putforth by OKC. When one city ponies up $$ to connect it to downtown I’m sure the other would, but nothing will get done if its a "wait until the other guy goes first" atmosphere.

The goodwill is that we have put $28 million into Santa Fe Station and have chosen to preserve the right-of-way that enables us to connect to the Union Pacific alignment and also retained the land to bypass the BNSF rail yard if we need to. We also paid for an extensive study by URS Corp to actually design the curvilinear alignment to connect to the elevated BNSF tracks in a way that accommodates both the Tulsa connection, high-speed rail, and commuter trains. OKC has diligently prepared itself and bucked some considerable political pressure to preserve these alignments.

With all that stated, we just need willing partners at the other end of the line and actual viable plans. That could be stated for the Tulsa connection and/or Newton or local connections to adjacent cities and suburbs. We have invested more in transit infrastructure for passengers in the last five years than any metropolitan area in the last sixty. Our sister city needs to step up.

[baralheia]

The goodwill is that we have put $28 million into Santa Fe Station and have chosen to preserve the right-of-way that enables us to connect to the Union Pacific alignment and also retained the land to bypass the BNSF rail yard if we need to. We also paid for an extensive study by URS Corp to actually design the curvilinear alignment to connect to the elevated BNSF tracks in a way that accommodates both the Tulsa connection, high-speed rail, and commuter trains. OKC has diligently prepared itself and bucked some considerable political pressure to preserve these alignments.

With all that stated, we just need willing partners at the other end of the line and actual viable plans. That could be stated for the Tulsa connection and/or Newton or local connections to adjacent cities and suburbs. We have invested more in transit infrastructure for passengers in the last five years than any metropolitan area in the last sixty. Our sister city needs to step up.

Not only that, but the whole entire reason why Iowa Pacific didn't quickly start operations in the first place is because both the City of OKC and the City of Tulsa reached out to them and wanted them to wait until they could get trains from downtown to downtown. That's what Iowa Pacific said anyway.

[soonerfan_in_okc]

The goodwill is that we have put $28 million into Santa Fe Station and have chosen to preserve the right-of-way that enables us to connect to the Union Pacific alignment and also retained the land to bypass the BNSF rail yard if we need to. We also paid for an extensive study by URS Corp to actually design the curvilinear alignment to connect to the elevated BNSF tracks in a way that accommodates both the Tulsa connection, high-speed rail, and commuter trains. OKC has diligently prepared itself and bucked some considerable political pressure to preserve these alignments.

With all that stated, we just need willing partners at the other end of the line and actual viable plans. That could be stated for the Tulsa connection and/or Newton or local connections to adjacent cities and suburbs. We have invested more in transit infrastructure for passengers in the last five years than any metropolitan area in the last sixty. Our sister city needs to step up.

Come on man, don’t pretend that the renovations to Santa Fe station were for a Tulsa connection. It’s a historic, active station that needed to be upgraded. The other investments made by OKC that you mentioned, while great, fall into he same category. The Tulsa connection was never a primary reason for anything. Nothing either city has done was for this connection.

[soonerfan_in_okc]

The goodwill is that we have put $28 million into Santa Fe Station and have chosen to preserve the right-of-way that enables us to connect to the Union Pacific alignment and also retained the land to bypass the BNSF rail yard if we need to. We also paid for an extensive study by URS Corp to actually design the curvilinear alignment to connect to the elevated BNSF tracks in a way that accommodates both the Tulsa connection, high-speed rail, and commuter trains. OKC has diligently prepared itself and bucked some considerable political pressure to preserve these alignments.

With all that stated, we just need willing partners at the other end of the line and actual viable plans. That could be stated for the Tulsa connection and/or Newton or local connections to adjacent cities and suburbs. We have invested more in transit infrastructure for passengers in the last five years than any metropolitan area in the last sixty. Our sister city needs to step up.

I just can’t let the bs in your paragraph go. I love all okc has done for passenger transit, but it’s not the leader in investments like you pretend. It doesn’t even touch what Dallas has invested in DART.

http://www.dallasobserver.com/news/d...rth-it-8380338

[Urban Pioneer]

Come on man, The Tulsa connection was never a primary reason for anything. Nothing either city has done was for this connection.

That's simply not true. The URS study and alignment preservation was entirely based on what the requirements were to connect Santa Fe Station to Tulsa. In fact, the local connections were less relevant at the time.

I was actually there in many, many, various meetings both public and private. And not only that, I regularly traveled to Tulsa and participated in some of their meetings as well to determine what they were doing on behalf of our former Mayor Cornett.

Don't make incorrect assertions about any of this stuff to me or to the people on this forum.

[Urban Pioneer]

I just can’t let the bs in your paragraph go. I love all okc has done for passenger transit, but it’s not the leader in investments like you pretend. It doesn’t even touch what Dallas has invested in DART.

I have never, and shall probably never, compare our efforts to what Dallas has successfully done with DART. As far as the "BS" as you put it, I can tell you authoritatively that OKC would have moved even more aggressively if we had a willing partner in Tulsa. We never had. If you're a Tulsan and have a chip on your shoulder about this, you can blame your former Mayor Bartlett among others about this.

We're investing $160 million+ in transit infrastructure right now. If that isn't a meaningful start for our city I don't know what is. And we're not looking to Dallas for all our answers or comparisons. We're looking globally.

[HOT ROD]

well said.

[Rover]

Come on man, don’t pretend that the renovations to Santa Fe station were for a Tulsa connection. It’s a historic, active station that needed to be upgraded. The other investments made by OKC that you mentioned, while great, fall into the same category. The Tulsa connection was never a primary reason for anything. Nothing either city has done was for this connection.

Since you have chosen to pick a fight with Urban Pioneer and he has identified his direct source of information and his involvement/history with the subject, pl.ease identify the source of your knowledge and why we should believe it? Are you presenting knowledge or opinion?

[Swake]

The goodwill is that we have put $28 million into Santa Fe Station and have chosen to preserve the right-of-way that enables us to connect to the Union Pacific alignment and also retained the land to bypass the BNSF rail yard if we need to. We also paid for an extensive study by URS Corp to actually design the curvilinear alignment to connect to the elevated BNSF tracks in a way that accommodates both the Tulsa connection, high-speed rail, and commuter trains. OKC has diligently prepared itself and bucked some considerable political pressure to preserve these alignments.

With all that stated, we just need willing partners at the other end of the line and actual viable plans. That could be stated for the Tulsa connection and/or Newton or local connections to adjacent cities and suburbs. We have invested more in transit infrastructure for passengers in the last five years than any metropolitan area in the last sixty. Our sister city needs to step up.

So the rights to come into downtown Tulsa already exist, the state owns those rights for 99 years. And from the last years Vision project Tulsa has money for a new station. And while that new station has not yet been built, Tulsa's Union Station still exists, is fully remodeled and is owned by the city. All you would have to do to use Union is to build a platform at ground level to the tracks, and that could be done in a matter of weeks.

So serious question, how is Tulsa the hold up here? You can Blame Bynum all you want for some random comments on a radio show last year but he's also made other statements that have been supportive of rail. How can this be on Bynum when he's only been mayor for two years while Tulsa has been promised rail service since the late 90s when Bynum must have been a teenager. The reality remains that the state spends millions a year to support rail to OKC, and nothing to Tulsa.

[Urban Pioneer]

If you’ll note in the above post, I actually blame “your former Mayor Bartlett among others”. My references to Bynum are totally within the context that he is luke warm. OKC aggressively lobbied at high, organized levels for the Heartland Flyer. And as the state has threatened its existence over the years, OKC always fights for it. Tulsa has not made the same sorts of organized, meaningful political efforts. I think that is visibly clear and easily backed up through a cursory examination of the info out there.

In my case I actually sat in many of these meetings and really don’t know why that is being questioned. I have no motive here and want Tulsa to be as successful as OKC. I don’t have time to be anything other than candid about this.