Connecting downtown to Health Sciences Center

[LandArchPoke]

Well that's interesting...

Cuatrode, the drawing you posted towards the beginning of this thread is great. Just wanted to give you props.

___

Capping freeways tends to be the less continuous way of dealing with urban freeways. I actually did my capstone project at OSU over completely removing this section of freeway from I-40 to I-44. Reconnecting the street-grid that was there before the freeway as a way to reverse what the freeway did to destroy the area. I actually walked around downtown OKC with a large map on poster board with my project partner. We asked people to put a dot on areas they thought were good areas/desirable and another color dot for areas they thought needed work/less desirable. Pretty much all the good dots went downtown/bricktown/midtown and the bad dots went south of the river and around the medical center.

I don't know if anywhere there's actually information on how many people that use this section of freeway is coming to and from downtown versus regional travelers who are using the corridor as the quickest way through the city? My hunch is most of the traffic is through traffic. Completely removing this section and reconstructing it into a complete streets type corridor would encourage only use by local traffic. Regional traffic would be shifted away to I-35 or Hefner Parkway, which isn't a bad thing because it doesn't provide any economic benefit for people to simply drive past downtown.

I had proposed light rail to be built from Santa Fe station along this reconstructed corridor to downtown Edmond with a spur up NW Expressway as well. You could then go south to connect Moore and Norman. East to Midwest City - Tinker and West to the Airport. The light rail would pick up any needed commuting capacity that was lost that a boulevard couldn't accommodate.

If you just removed this from the railroad tracks by I-40 to NW 13th, it would add 88 acres of developable land that is currently owned by ODOT. Keep in mind, ODOT pays no taxes on any of this currently.

One of the jury members was an streets engineer for OKC, and he hated the idea.

[ljbab728]

I don't know if anywhere there's actually information on how many people that use this section of freeway is coming to and from downtown versus regional travelers who are using the corridor as the quickest way through the city? My hunch is most of the traffic is through traffic.

Interesting because I would think the exact opposite. It's rarely a route that I would use for through traffic given the other choices available.

[LandArchPoke]

Interesting because I would think the exact opposite. It's rarely a route that I would use for through traffic given the other choices available.

Likely it would be someone who lives in Edmond that needs to go to Moore/Norman or Dallas and it's probably quickest to take this to hook into I-35 south. The best way to gauge how many use this to go downtown versus to go past downtown to another location would be to study the on/off ramp traffic counts and compare it to the traffic count before and after the on/off ramp on the highway. I've never seen good data from ODOT with these though for OKC or Tulsa.

[ljbab728]

Likely it would be someone who lives in Edmond that needs to go to Moore/Norman or Dallas and it's probably quickest to take this to hook into I-35 south. The best way to gauge how many use this to go downtown versus to go past downtown to another location would be to study the on/off ramp traffic counts and compare it to the traffic count before and after the on/off ramp on the highway. I've never seen good data from ODOT with these though for OKC or Tulsa.

That's probably true but I seriously doubt that the majority of traffic there is people traveling between Edmond, Moore, Norman, and Dallas.

[boitoirich]

Interesting because I would think the exact opposite. It's rarely a route that I would use for through traffic given the other choices available.

During rush hour, no, but the other 20 hours of the day 235 is absolutely a bypass

[Plutonic Panda]

Capping freeways tends to be the less continuous way of dealing with urban freeways. I actually did my capstone project at OSU over completely removing this section of freeway from I-40 to I-44. Reconnecting the street-grid that was there before the freeway as a way to reverse what the freeway did to destroy the area. I actually walked around downtown OKC with a large map on poster board with my project partner. We asked people to put a dot on areas they thought were good areas/desirable and another color dot for areas they thought needed work/less desirable. Pretty much all the good dots went downtown/bricktown/midtown and the bad dots went south of the river and around the medical center.

Thank god you aren't in charge. Now I'll wait for the predictable response!

[Plutonic Panda]

During rush hour, no, but the other 20 hours of the day 235 is absolutely a bypass

So I guess every time I'm on the highway and I see people exiting the freeway to go into downtown or the HSC, that would constitute bypassing it?

[Plutonic Panda]

Likely it would be someone who lives in Edmond that needs to go to Moore/Norman or Dallas and it's probably quickest to take this to hook into I-35 south. The best way to gauge how many use this to go downtown versus to go past downtown to another location would be to study the on/off ramp traffic counts and compare it to the traffic count before and after the on/off ramp on the highway. I've never seen good data from ODOT with these though for OKC or Tulsa.

Wrong. Nearly every single person I know if going to Norman, Moore, or Dallas will take I-35 to 40 back to I-35, it is usually faster and yes I've actually timed it. Almost every time I'm on that highway or hear someone going to downtown from Edmond, they use that highway to do it.

[LandArchPoke]

Thank god you aren't in charge. Now I'll wait for the predictable response!

Why's that? Because I would prefer a city built to accommodate all modes of transportation instead of just one? Because I don't like freeways that may not be necessary for a city to prosper (Vancouver, BC)? Because I don't like infrastructure that degrades property values near it, destroy's existing structures that were providing the city with revenues (property taxes), segregates communities, and encourages developers to build skybridges from massive parking garages or demolishes historic structures for parking lots? Because you could open up over 80 acres back to develop into mixed-use between the medical center and downtown/deep deuce areas?

Some people would say yes, because having the highway turn into a boulevard would add 5 - 10 minutes to their commute and that just not ok. They are the type of people who would rather be on the expressway in their car in Dallas than on a street car or BART in San Francisco. Other cities have successfully removed urban freeways - San Francisco, Milwaukee, Portland - all with no added congestion and increased development and property values because of it.

I would personally rather see Tulsa and Oklahoma City both have more connected cores to surrounding neighborhoods, and have the freeways stop at the city limits like Vancouver of Washington DC. People are more adaptable than you think.

Wrong. Nearly every single person I know if going to Norman, Moore, or Dallas will take I-35 to 40 back to I-35, it is usually faster and yes I've actually timed it. Almost every time I'm on that highway or hear someone going to downtown from Edmond, they use that highway to do it.

So you're telling me that every single person you know that if they were in downtown Edmond, Chesapeake, or Classen Curve all take I-35 instead of 235? If that was true, the freeway would be a ghost town. The traffic counts around medical center are over 100,000 trips. That's a lot of people taking that freeway. I'm sorry there's not 50,000 people taking 235 and exiting to downtown - medical center - capitol complex or the traffic to get on and off the highways there would be hellish.

So I guess every time I'm on the highway and I see people exiting the freeway to go into downtown or the HSC, that would constitute bypassing it?

How many of those people are exiting versus driving through? I'm going to be the ratio favors people driving through/bypassing by at least 5:1 - 10:1


And Panda, if you prefer the highways and cars there isn't anything wrong with that. It's your right and preference. I just happen to enjoy being able to hop on a train and walking if I had the option.

[Bellaboo]

I-235 is hellish at times. Yesterday, there was a 5 car pile up that had Northbound reduced to 1 lane. I went 6 miles out of my way to get to the Capitol complex. Any little instance creates gridlock during both morning and evening rush.

[ljbab728]

During rush hour, no, but the other 20 hours of the day 235 is absolutely a bypass

True, but that doesn't change my point at all.

[boitoirich]

True, but that doesn't change my point at all.

I think we're actually agreeing with one another somewhat, but I could be confused. If we're talking about total volume handled, you may have a point -- I don't know about overall traffic volume and destination, and I wasn't trying to make any point about that. But if we're talking the majority of day, then Centennial is used as a route through the city. Either way, CuatrodeMayo and LandArchPoke's ideas both lend themselves well to this stretch of highway.

[ljbab728]

I think we're actually agreeing with one another somewhat, but I could be confused. If we're talking about total volume handled, you may have a point -- I don't know about overall traffic volume and destination, and I wasn't trying to make any point about that. But if we're talking the majority of day, then Centennial is used as a route through the city. Either way, CuatrodeMayo and LandArchPoke's ideas both lend themselves well to this stretch of highway.

I was talking about volume. I was responding to this post.

don't know if anywhere there's actually information on how many people that use this section of freeway is coming to and from downtown versus regional travelers who are using the corridor as the quickest way through the city? My hunch is most of the traffic is through traffic.

[David]

I can't quite imagine how too much non-metro through traffic would even end up on the corridor. North to south? When I was driving that in college the natural route was down 35 to 40 to 35. Vice versa I could see non-map people going straight at the 35/235/40 junction, but I would have said the nation as a whole is pretty well trained on three digits = loop or spur, two digits = main interstate. Same example, I can remember going up 235 only once or twice in my multiple years of driving up through the city. West or east, east to west, 235 shouldn't even be on the table unless someone gets really confused by the bright lights of Bricktown. Even coming in on 44 from either direction, not routes I ever drive much, I can't quite see someone choosing to take 235 nearly regardless of their route.

Through traffic that starts or ends in the metro is another story of course, I take 235 all the time going between Edmond and Norman. I used to take 35 back when their was some construction on the extension at the turnpike, but that cleared up years ago.

[Plutonic Panda]

Why's that? Because I would prefer a city built to accommodate all modes of transportation instead of just one? Because I don't like freeways that may not be necessary for a city to prosper (Vancouver, BC)? Because I don't like infrastructure that degrades property values near it, destroy's existing structures that were providing the city with revenues (property taxes), segregates communities, and encourages developers to build skybridges from massive parking garages or demolishes historic structures for parking lots? Because you could open up over 80 acres back to develop into mixed-use between the medical center and downtown/deep deuce areas?

Sorry if I came as a douche. I reread that and it came out wrong. I still stand by my liking of highways however.

Dallas is growing extremely fast, probably faster than most if not all Canadian cities and it has a massive highway network.

Some people would say yes, because having the highway turn into a boulevard would add 5 - 10 minutes to their commute and that just not ok. They are the type of people who would rather be on the expressway in their car in Dallas than on a street car or BART in San Francisco. Other cities have successfully removed urban freeways - San Francisco, Milwaukee, Portland - all with no added congestion and increased development and property values because of it.

I would personally rather see Tulsa and Oklahoma City both have more connected cores to surrounding neighborhoods, and have the freeways stop at the city limits like Vancouver of Washington DC. People are more adaptable than you think.

People are adaptable because they aren't given a choice. If you remove a freeway, it's not like a person will say, 'eh, I might adapt to it,' no, they have to because the freeway is no longer there. So they will use another freeway most likely and that will cause congestion in other areas. You also have to take in to account the number of people that live or are driving close by on the highway that once existed and is now a boulevard that no longer has the option to go onto the highway because it isn't there. So that congestion is not accounted for.

So you're telling me that every single person you know that if they were in downtown Edmond, Chesapeake, or Classen Curve all take I-35 instead of 235? If that was true, the freeway would be a ghost town. The traffic counts around medical center are over 100,000 trips. That's a lot of people taking that freeway. I'm sorry there's not 50,000 people taking 235 and exiting to downtown - medical center - capitol complex or the traffic to get on and off the highways there would be hellish.

I'm saying most people I know that go into downtown take 235 into downtown. I know a lot more people who go into downtown than pass by on that highway. I always see people exiting and entering near downtown as well on that highway.

How many of those people are exiting versus driving through? I'm going to be the ratio favors people driving through/bypassing by at least 5:1 - 10:1

I don't know.

And Panda, if you prefer the highways and cars there isn't anything wrong with that. It's your right and preference. I just happen to enjoy being able to hop on a train and walking if I had the option.

I think you should have the option. Personally, if it were me, I would love seeing ODOT investing billions into making all the highway below grade around the Tulsa downtown and putting parks over them as well as completely tearing down 235, rebuilding the whole thing below grade, and capping it as well as capping the new crosstown.

I would also like to see a new rail division formed and the OKC and Tulsa metros get light and commuter rail.

[Spartan]

You can want to see it all, but if you don't stand up for rail it will never happen, ever. Nobody needs to "stand up" for freeway in order for ODOT to deliver more of those projects.

[Laramie]

MAPS TRANSITION IV:

MAPS IV will survive to continue the momentum. What's there to lose if you vote for; also what's there to gain if you vote against? It will be advertised that there will be no increase in the sales tax; previous MAPS' projects have touched everyone in some way or another.

MAPS IV must include something for everyone (not limited to); some examples: possible expansion-renovations to the previous MAPS projects (transit, ballpark, canal, riverfront, dams, fairgrounds, downtown arena etc.,) in which some will be almost 20 years old.

Evaluate & revisit:

Transit: Expand the street car system 50-60 miles to include Zoo, Remington Park, MWC-Del City, Edmond, Norman--all with stations) .
Connect; St. Anthony Hospital complex, Midtown, Automobile Alley with OU Health Science & Research Centers (beautification, development, walkability, transit).

• The Brick to be configured as a multiuse facility for American football & soccer (riser seating for 20,000); baseball (13,000-15,000 permanent).
  
• Expand the Bricktown canal 2 miles (total 3 mile canal).
  
• Riverfront beautification project; unfinished projects in MAPS III.
  
• Dams, inspect & repair if necessary.
  
• Fairgrounds: new iconic space tower (500 ft., minimum height).
  
• Downtown arena: necessary upgrades.
  
• Street Car Transit should route to all of the above areas.

This will be another win for OKC.

[ljbab728]

From the Journal Record.

Space to innovate: Study will determine what’s needed between downtown and HSC
By Dale Denwalt
The Journal Record

OKLAHOMA CITY – An 18-month study of innovation around the city’s medical science plaza will give officials the tools they need to encourage development in the area, officials said.

The Brookings Institution and the Project for Public Spaces will send researchers to interview workers, residents and others inside the district that’s roughly bounded on the east by the University of Oklahoma Health Sciences Center and to the west by Automobile Alley.

The efforts of the two nonprofits stem from work they have done elsewhere.

“They try to take areas between places and create vibrant spaces to collide people,” said Roy Williams, president and CEO of the Greater Oklahoma City Chamber.

There is a natural barrier, though – Interstate 235.

“What if we capped it?” Williams said, referencing ideas that could come out of the research. “What if we put a roof on 235 from 10th Street to Sixth Street? Then there’s no barrier, and you walk across the freeway instead of driving around it.”

That’s just one idea, though. Williams said the lack of housing, restaurants and commercial businesses near the medical centers could reveal a significant need among the people who work there. That’s when the chamber and others would step in, reaching out to people such as housing developers to fill those needs.

Downtown OKC Inc. CEO and President Jane Jenkins said there is a desire to make a strong physical connection with the medical centers and downtown. The researchers’ recommendations will be welcome, she said, because the work in Automobile Alley is never done.

“Downtown’s urban districts, urban areas are constantly evolving, particularly in a dynamic environment like we have here in Oklahoma City,” she said. “My expectations are that whatever comes out of this report that’s apropos to Automobile Alley will be in sync with other efforts that are currently underway.”

The Brookings Institution announced the venture last week, but released a more in-depth explanation of the study on Wednesday. Over the next year-and-a-half, teams of researchers will visit Oklahoma City to analyze demographics and interview focus groups, asking questions as specific as where park benches should go. Brookings will also study Philadelphia.

The research is sponsored by a grant from philanthropists Robert and Anne Bass. The Bass Initiative for Innovation and Placemaking aims to use the lessons learned to help build other cities across the world.
Oklahoma’s capital was picked because the city already had the kind of attitude toward innovation that the organization was looking for, Brookings Institution spokeswoman Grace Palmer said.

“Brookings had seen some nascent innovation district activity already in our past research,” Palmer said. “We’re always looking for variety, but also ones that might be emblematic in some ways. There was enough interest in what was happening in Oklahoma City that we thought it would be interesting to seek it out more.”

[AP]

This is encouraging. But capping 235 won't be cheap.

[baralheia]

I'm not even sure that capping 235 would be the best idea, either. There definitely needs to be a better way for pedestrians to cross the interstate, however... perhaps a pedestrian bridge or two?

[Urban Pioneer]

Just take whatever you would spend on capping the interstate and spend it on expanding the streetcar system instead. Connectivity problem solved.

[bchris02]

Capping the freeway and creating something like Klyde Warren Park in Dallas would be cool. However, given how expensive it would be as well as the fact that the HSC is so far from urban standards at the moment the challenge of "fixing" it within a generation borders on impossible, I think that money would be much better spent on streetcar expansion than capping the highway.

[dwellsokc]

According to he Brookings Institution and the Project for Public Spaces as presented at the recent Chamber Retreat, Automobile Alley is considered to be part of the Innovation District... Now the issue becomes reducing the effects of the barrier (I-235) within the district, not between downtown and the district. Improving pedestrian connectivity, and creating cool new spaces is critical to the viability of this district.

[hoya]

I think capping I-235 will cost way more than it is worth. The money you spent on that could do a lot of other things. Here's what we should do:

1) Create a design review board for the HSC area to ensure urban design standards are followed.
2) Build about 5000 residential spaces in the HSC area.
3) Put in shops, restaurants, and retail that the residents and employees can support.
4) Connect it to downtown with the streetcar and a few pedestrian crossings.

Easy as can be.

[dwellsokc]

"Capping I-235" sounds so harsh. Think of it as enhancing the existing connection points ("widen" the bridges... create new property for new buildings... increased density... "stitch" the east & west sides together.) Creating a useful place, where most people don't even think there is a place.

It would be worth the cost.