Friends for a Better Boulevard

[Bellaboo]

Do you realize how many "simple overhead pedestrian walkways" you are talking about. That is going to add to the cost, much less take away from the attractive design they have going there. Would have to see the numbers on all of it to see if it is feasible not only to build as rendered but to maintain

Ever seen those in Vegas ? Not much to them, and you'd just need a couple, one on 2 sides of your choice. You could go underground for that matter, then they wouldn't be unsightly and practically maintenance free. Just a simple tunnel.

[Hutch]

Do you realize how many "simple overhead pedestrian walkways" you are talking about. That is going to add to the cost, much less take away from the attractive design they have going there. Would have to see the numbers on all of it to see if it is feasible not only to build as rendered but to maintain

They are not talking about pedestrian overpasses and there are none in the rendering that I can see.

[Just the facts]

I am only aware of a few traffic circles this size that have people in the middle of them, and they get there via an underground walkway.

[soonerliberal]

I am only aware of a few traffic circles this size that have people in the middle of them, and they get there via an underground walkway.

Dupont Circle in Washington, DC is a good example of a heavily traveled traffic circle with significant pedestrian traffic.

There are no underground walkways for pedestrians, but there is an underground road and subway that goes through it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dupont_Circle

[Hutch]

Dupont Circle Google Earth Image

[Just the facts]

Dupont Circle in Washington, DC is a good example of a heavily traveled traffic circle with significant pedestrian traffic.

There are no underground walkways for pedestrians, but there is an underground road and subway that goes through it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dupont_Circle

Nice one and a pretty good example. Thanks.

[CuatrodeMayo]

Dupont Circle in Washington, DC is a good example of a heavily traveled traffic circle with significant pedestrian traffic.

There are no underground walkways for pedestrians, but there is an underground road and subway that goes through it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dupont_Circle

Exactly. Dupont Circle was actually the main inspiration for Market Circle.

[Spartan]

They are not talking about pedestrian overpasses and there are none in the rendering that I can see.

Yeah, I don't know where that came from.

[ljbab728]

LJ, the non traffic circle option is the earthen ramp. That is the other choice. But if you are really convinced that the hard work put in by the Friends for a Better Boulevard movement is not the right course of action for the community, then you really should draw up an alternate proposal of a crazy 5-way intersection or what have you. Currently, the option you seek does not exist and will not unless you force it into the public discourse.

As it is, any opposition to this will be seen as support for the earthen ramp, and I'm not sure you want your opposition to traffic circles misconstrued as support for the earthen ramp. I count myself firmly as a friend of the Better Boulevard.

Spartan, it sounds like you have just designated yourself to be the arbitor of the choices. My opposition to both stands. I don't have the capabilites to draw up elaborate plans that some have posted but you can't convince me that an alternative isn't possible. As I've said before, I would even favor some kind of traffic square over a circle.

[Spartan]

I'm not arbitrating, I'm just trying to bring this back down to reality, which I would argue the traffic circle has miraculously become a part of.

What is a traffic square? I'm not familiar with this concept. What about a traffic trapezoid? Has a nice ring to it. (I kid, I kid)

[ljbab728]

I'm not arbitrating, I'm just trying to bring this back down to reality, which I would argue the traffic circle has miraculously become a part of.

What is a traffic square? I'm not familiar with this concept. What about a traffic trapezoid? Has a nice ring to it. (I kid, I kid)

When you tell me there are only two options, the one you favor and the one you oppose, that is being a little heavy handed. I still contend that people have become enamored by a beautiful depiction without considering all of the ramifications just as ODOT is enamored with their plans without considering all of the ramifications.

[Spartan]

When you tell me there are only two options, the one you favor and the one you oppose,

Because those are the two options. I'm not being heavy handed ljbab, I'm leveling with you - you've done nothing to illicit heavy-handedness.

You have to find a creative way to handle the convergence of all these streets. The only other feasible alternative that I can see is to not do the boulevard at all. However, I'd encourage people to look at downtown in 2012, and to stop looking at downtown in 2000 (C2S) and especially throw out plans based on the 1990 outlook (ODOT's basis here). That 2012 reality, that so few people have keyed in on, is that I really think the best development opportunity is the west side of downtown - it has traffic counts that don't exist anywhere else (bumper-to-bumper traffic on Western), and it has cheap real estate fronting Western - classic rent gap situation. I'm not saying to abandon C2S, I'm just saying that C2S needs to evolve to reflect the changes that have occurred in the last 10 years in order to be as successful as we all want.

Then the bottom line, for me, becomes this - if you're wanting to put downtown's west side to the highest possible use to take advantage of this golden opportunity, you gotta do this traffic circle. It's such a natural way to build the world-class environment we're looking for.

As for advocated of "returning to the street grid," I think you create and take advantage of new opportunities between Classen and Shields, however, west of the Market Circle, I think then you absolutely "return to the street grid" with Reno. That is a slight deviation from the plans drafted by Andrew but the engineering is workable, albeit complicated because you have to merge Reno and Exchange in the approach to ingress, preferably without demolishing a single building along Klein which is an incredibly urban street that frames the Farmer's Market amazingly well. That's a fantastic district waiting to emerge.

[ljbab728]

Because those are the two options. I'm not being heavy handed ljbab, I'm leveling with you - you've done nothing to illicit heavy-handedness.

You have to find a creative way to handle the convergence of all these streets. The only other feasible alternative that I can see is to not do the boulevard at all. However, I'd encourage people to look at downtown in 2012, and to stop looking at downtown in 2000 (C2S) and especially throw out plans based on the 1990 outlook (ODOT's basis here). That 2012 reality, that so few people have keyed in on, is that I really think the best development opportunity is the west side of downtown - it has traffic counts that don't exist anywhere else (bumper-to-bumper traffic on Western), and it has cheap real estate fronting Western - classic rent gap situation. I'm not saying to abandon C2S, I'm just saying that C2S needs to evolve to reflect the changes that have occurred in the last 10 years in order to be as successful as we all want.

Then the bottom line, for me, becomes this - if you're wanting to put downtown's west side to the highest possible use to take advantage of this golden opportunity, you gotta do this traffic circle. It's such a natural way to build the world-class environment we're looking for.

As for advocated of "returning to the street grid," I think you create and take advantage of new opportunities between Classen and Shields, however, west of the Market Circle, I think then you absolutely "return to the street grid" with Reno. That is a slight deviation from the plans drafted by Andrew but the engineering is workable, albeit complicated because you have to merge Reno and Exchange in the approach to ingress, preferably without demolishing a single building along Klein which is an incredibly urban street that frames the Farmer's Market amazingly well. That's a fantastic district waiting to emerge.

I still agree with your points except the traffic circle. There ARE NOT just two options just because you think that's true. You could put a square or even somewhat rectangular configuration in the area where you propose the traffic circle. That would be safer for both drivers and pedestrians and just as efficient, if not more so.

[Spartan]

Can you take us beyond "I just don't like traffic circles?" Why are you so vehemently opposed to circles? Just curious..

[ljbab728]

Can you take us beyond "I just don't like traffic circles?" Why are you so vehemently opposed to circles? Just curious..

Too many personal experiences, Spartan, both here and in Europe. I always feel I'm taking my life in my hands. A traffic circle isn't the end of the world and my life doesn't revolve around opposing them but I've had my say.

[BoulderSooner]

can you show any of us an example of a "traffic square" or "traffic rectangle" any where??

and west of this area the BLVD is going to be on the old I40 alignment ..and that is pretty much written in stone

[Just the facts]

can you show any of us an example of a "traffic square" or "traffic rectangle" any where??

and west of this area the BLVD is going to be on the old I40 alignment ..and that is pretty much written in stone

Here are just a few off the top of my head:

Lebanon, TN - downtown
Washington D.C. - two are just east of the Captiol building.
Savannah, GA - everywhere (more than you can shake a stick at)

[BoulderSooner]

Here are just a few off the top of my head:

Bowling Green, KY - downtown
Lebanon, TN - downtown
Washington D.C. - two are just east of the Captiol building.
Savannah, GA - everywhere (more than you can shake a stick at)

ok how about 1 of the size to replace this traffic circle ..

[Urban Pioneer]

I'm not sure why this guy is so vehemently against circles. No offense ljbab, but it sounds like a phobia. Lol. "Circlephobia". I just imagine some video of a guy losing his mind as he sees other cars circling ahead culminating into some sort of 3 Stooges style crash over an embankment.

Personally, I think it's awesome Andrew put the effort forth. There's more inspiration and quite frankly detail, than we have seen attached to nearly anything else out there regarding anything else. Lol. Where are ODOT's renderings for their overpasses? Lol

[Just the facts]

ok how about 1 of the size to replace this traffic circle ..

Trafalger Sq - Westminster/London

nm - not a good example.

I guess both of the ones in DC would be the best examples. Both are larger than Du Pont Ciricle but they are residnetial in nature and not commercial. Not sure if that is just the historic makeup of the areas or if the square/circle impacted the development pattern (i.e. do circles promote commercial development while square promote residential development, or is there no impact)

Now that I think about it, maybe this why I can never spur retail/commerical development on my traffic squares in Sim City 3. And this whole time I though it was because SimCity 3 was still based on segregated zoning.

[Buffalo Bill]

can you show any of us an example of a "traffic square" or "traffic rectangle" any where??

The common courthouse square similar to those in Cordell or Boise City, OK. Check them out on Google Maps.

[Maynard]

The common courthouse square similar to those in Cordell or Boise City, OK. Check them out on Google Maps.

Creek Council House [square] in Okmulgee, too.

[CuatrodeMayo]

Let's compromise and do an octagon...everybody wins =)

[Just the facts]

Let's compromise and do an octagon...everybody wins =)

I say we base the decision on the role of an 8 side die. For the record, I prefer the circle - I was just answering the question that was asked.

[Maynard]

Let's compromise and do an octagon...everybody wins =)

Or...or...or:



(everybody wins)