The Underground

[Just the facts]

P180 is a start because the streets and sidewalks were terrible before. But they haven't created any real ambiance and intimacy that makes people want to be on the streets. They need to work with the building owners to do that...to interface with store fronts, sidewalk cafes, etc.

So with P180 nearing some level of completion at great expense to the taxpayer AND to encourage building owners to relocate front doors to the sidewalk, do you think it would be a good idea for the city to remove features that were counter-productive to putting pedestrians on the sidewalks? In other words, why would building X and which retailers would go through the cost of putting in a sidewalk front retail store if at the same time the City was making it possible for people to by-pass the store completely?

[RadicalModerate]

I realize that this is going to be one of the stupidest, most uninformed, out of the loop questions ever, but exactly where is it downtown that there aren't sidewalks adjacent to businesses? And you should know that the only time I've ever been down in the Underground Concourse was on an Opening Night, decades ago. (it was pretty cool, outside the wind chill was probably down around zero).

[Rover]

I know you hate p180, but the fact is that it has significantly improved downtown. We have spent 100 s of millions downtown. These building owners need to step up. We have two way streets, on street parking, better sidewalks, etc, and yet you want the building owners to take a pass. When do you expect the govt to quit being the fall guy? The building owners need to do their part in creating the street level ambiance and services. And a few retailers need to take some risk too if you expect it to happen.

[Just the facts]

Not sure who the 'hate P180' comment was directed at but I love P180. In fact, the streets should have never been made one-way to begin with (freaking IM Pei). So once again, the City has spent large sums of money to rebuild every street and sidewalk but yet they continue to fund and operate a second and competing pathway. Does it make sense to do that?

[hoya]

Do building owners have a civic duty to downtown? If I own a crappy little building and I choose to leave it rundown and ugly because I can still make a little cash from it, is that bad? If it is bad is there anything we can do about it? The most glaring examples downtown are the Preftakes properties. That could be a great little area with cool shops and things. But he's holding them for Devon... right?

I agree that building owners should work to improve downtown. But I don't think there's necessarily a huge amount of unoccupied retail space that 1) isn't being held for something else, 2) where the owners actually have the money to fix it up, and 3) is in a good location to make money. Preftakes has a big plan for his properties and is waiting for something. The owner of First National has no money. Century Center is, well, Century Center. It seems like a lot of the prime real estate downtown is "on reserve" for new towers. If I were looking at putting in some sizable retail, I'd want to wait and see what space was going to be available.

I think once we get enough people living downtown, we'll get more retail. Could a developer team up with a national retailer to help fund construction of a new building? Say you are going to build a 12 story midrise diagonal from the courthouse, where the surface parking lot is on Robert S Kerr and Hudson. Total cost is $25 million, we'll say. If it costs $5 million to build a Wallgreens, it may be possible to have a joint venture with them where they pay their normal cost and they get ownership of the first floor?

[Just the facts]

Downtown has tons of unused first floor space. Let's look at Oklahoma Tower. I am not sure if it has any ground floor retail or not. If it does there is no door to the sidewalk for it. However, it does have 3 skywalks on the second floor that connect it to Corporate Tower, Leadership Sq, and Devon Parking Garage. If those 3 skywalks were removed and everyone had to use the front door instead do you think it would make the area around the front door more desirable for retail? With the Park Harvey right across the street and the main branch of the library right next door it would be great location with potential customers available well into the evening (the library closes at 9PM and several hundred people live in Park Harvey). But alas, the vast majority of daytime users don't use the front door or the sidewalk in front of the building - so no retail.

Oh, I almost forgot the covered walk way to Robinson Renaissance as well. So 4 ways in besides the sidewalk in front of the building.

[LandRunOkie]

If downtown retail is a quality of life issue, tax credits could be given to building owners who sign first floor retail tenants. Tax credits for owners would result in lower rent for retailers. Alternatively the city could declare the CBD a sales-tax-free zone. Adding a nearly 10% subsidy on revenue for retailers would certainly encourage development, and tilt the table towards retail instead of office space.

[RadicalModerate]

I know you hate p180, but the fact is that it has significantly improved downtown. We have spent 100 s of millions downtown. These building owners need to step up. We have two way streets, on street parking, better sidewalks, etc, and yet you want the building owners to take a pass. When do you expect the govt to quit being the fall guy? The building owners need to do their part in creating the street level ambiance and services. And a few retailers need to take some risk too if you expect it to happen.

And without an increase in taxes or bond obligations.
(you know . . . that "risk" thing that made America great)

However: The business owners should only be held responsible and accountable for removing (sweeping) their own frontage rather that being held liable for the fact that the sidewalk in front of their store was poorly designed and subject to the whims and vagaries of nature as defined, in part, by the frost heaving effects of the local clay soil. Otherwise, the helicopter mom pushing the stroller that encounters a bump exceeding the recommended allowance of vertical displacement of the pavement might be tempted to sue. =)

[RadicalModerate]

Not sure who the 'hate P180' comment was directed at but I love P180. (freaking IM Pei).

Agreed. I suppose it all depends on whose Ox is Being Gored as compared to Fed.
(remember The Biltmore? =)

[hoya]

Downtown has tons of unused first floor space. Let's look at Oklahoma Tower. I am not sure if it has any ground floor retail or not. If it does there is no door to the sidewalk for it. However, it does have 3 skywalks on the second floor that connect it to Corporate Tower, Leadership Sq, and Devon Parking Garage. If those 3 skywalks were removed and everyone had to use the front door instead do you think it would make the area around the front door more desirable for retail? With the Park Harvey right across the street and the main branch of the library right next door it would be great location with potential customers available well into the evening (the library closes at 9PM and several hundred people live in Park Harvey). But alas, the vast majority of daytime users don't use the front door or the sidewalk in front of the building - so no retail.

Oh, I almost forgot the covered walk way to Robinson Renaissance as well. So 4 ways in besides the sidewalk in front of the building.

Teena Hicks is retail that is on the second floor of Oklahoma Tower, along the Conncourse route. On the ground floor you have Richie's, a pretty good burger/grill place, and a relatively small about the size of a conference room that could probably hold some sort of retail. I think something was there for a while and then closed.

[Just the facts]

Thanks Hoyasooner. On the second floor along the Conncourse - perfect. That way it is sure to close as soon as the office workers go home. Richey's gets pretty good reviews on Urban Spoon but I'll be they close when the building closes. If they had their own door to the sidewalk they could set their own hours. The vacant space, does it front a wall along the sidewalk?

Richey's - Downtown - Oklahoma City | Urbanspoon


Teena Hicks:
http://www.teenahickscompany.com/tee...ng-contact.asp

Monday-Friday: 9am-6pm
Saturday: 10am-1pm

I walked right by this building on the sidewalk 2 weeks ago and didnt even see this store. I guess that is because it was 20 feet above me and inside a building. Too bad. We did see, and go into Pinkitzel in the Santa Fe Station loading dock. That is a quality store.

This is kind of fun and educational. Maybe we should just pick buildings at random and identify what's in it and what space is vacant.

[hoya]

Yeah the vacant space is right on the sidewalk. It might not be vacant right now, I just remember there used to be a Thunder store in there a few years ago and now it's gone. It's not that big of a place. It's about the size of a dentist's waiting room. Teena Hicks gets pretty good traffic on the second level.

If I were to rebuild OKC from the ground up according to my liking, I'd remake it without the Conncourse. The weather here is good enough most of the time so we don't really need it. But I think shutting it down is an overreaction.

[RadicalModerate]

I do too. In fact, I think They could make The Concourse look something like this with a little imagination and a few bucks.

(it reminded me--almost exactly--of my childhood in the suburbs of a certain town in Colorado that now has a Pearl Street Mall =)

[Of Sound Mind]

It might not be vacant right now, I just remember there used to be a Thunder store in there a few years ago and now it's gone. It's not that big of a place.

Are you sure it was ever a Thunder store? I could be wrong, but I don't think it was ever a Thunder store. I believe it was a Hornets store when they were in town. As far as I can recollect (since I've worked in Leadership Square since the Thunder came to town), the official Thunder store has always been in Leadership Square.

[hoya]

Are you sure it was ever a Thunder store? I could be wrong, but I don't think it was ever a Thunder store. I believe it was a Hornets store when they were in town. As far as I can recollect (since I've worked in Leadership Square since the Thunder came to town), the official Thunder store has always been in Leadership Square.

No I'm not.

[LandRunOkie]

Does anyone know where to find a sales tax collection map? A ban on sales tax in the CBD would probably not cost very much lost revenue for the city and greatly enhance visitors' image of the city.

[shawnw]

Downtown has tons of unused first floor space.

My dream first floor revitalization project would be the Pioneer building. I wish AT&T would tear out the marble closing off the windows and such to re-expose the ground floor space and lease it out. You would catch the foot traffic from the people walking up Broadway from the Sheraton and Renaissance to get to Automobile Alley...

[HangryHippo]

I agree 100%. I'd love to see those windows brought back.

And those hideous antennas and dishes taken off the top.

[LandRunOkie]

I started a thread for this over here: http://www.okctalk.com/local-busines...wn-retail.html
so as to not gum up this thread!

[metro]

Anyone know what the status is of the west tunnel that connects near Sandridge to Leadership Square? It's been closed for month's and looks like no work is being done. Also, what happened to all the colored lights with the remodel? Looks like most of them have been half assly ripped out and it looks awful. Ceiling tiles missing in various places, the maintenance has really gone downhill the last few months.

[Mr. Cotter]

The tunnel is closed because of the construction above. I imagine it wont reopen until the Sandridge construction is complete. The north sections of the Underground didn't look that good to me even after the remodel, which is where I assume you are talking about the missing lights. I haven't noticed any in the parts that I use (Cox to Leadership).

[metro]

Sandridge has no effect on this section I'm talking about. Anyone else more in the loop?

[cagoklahoma]

Metro,

Although it would seem that SandRidge's ongoing construction would not be the cause for this, it really is. The section you are talking about runs along Robert S. Kerr on the south side, which coincidentally is where the construction of the amenities building and Kerr Park renovations are taking place. From the buildings on the south of Kerr Park, you can see the Underground with a big hole in the side. Supposedly the amenities building will have Underground access.

Have a great day!

[metro]

Eating crow..... I just realized the same thing before I read your post. It does angle through the amenities building area. Another reason it will suck if Sandridge stops work on the building due to the rogue shareholder. Thanks for the correction.

[Anonymous.]

As it is getting colder, I noticed the underground is way busier (obviously).

Although I am guilty of using the tunnels often in the winter and rain, I still wish they did not exist.


It makes me sad to think of what the visible streets could look like on a weekday around 8am, noon, and 5pm if the underground was non existant.