Self defense - Racist style

[Thunder]

That's another thing I disagree with the DA, demanding that the man be held in jail without bond. Thankfully, the judge changed that and the man is free until further notice. Altho, he is not allowed to be in possession of a gun, hopefully the ladies have a permit to carry a gun. If not, hire security from open to close.

[Drake]

please don't use your ignorance of how the disability percentage of veterans is determined. %100 doesn't = incapacitated. There's plenty of literature online. Trying to belittle the man because he's able to walk/run is pretty sad.


None of the 3 camera angles shows the direction the other kid and Mr. Ersland were running. Since this is the direction from which both the thugs arrived at the pharmacy, it would make perfect sense that a driver, or back-up was waiting in that direction.

And you're right, a crime was committed, and at least one of them committing it got what he deserved.

I'm sure you are correct in the fact that by military standards he is 100% disabled. My bad.

That being said - take it easy there drama queen. I was speaking to to fact some have used his disability to say he was in further danger. Where in the world you are coming with "trying to belittle the man because he's able to walk' Im not quite sure. Ridiculous.



Somebody might correct me, but the outside camera appeared that they came out of the store and ran N out the camera view. The pharmacist chased him out and then walked back into the store. You would think that if he was in such fear of that he would have immediately locked the front door behind him.

[fuzzytoad]

What makes it tough? He killed an unarmed person who was completely incapacitated -- an act which went well beyond the privilege.

and you know he was incapacitated how?

Yes, he took a shot to the head, a shot to the head from what looks like a taurus judge. This revolver is capable of firing .410 shotshell or .45lc rounds.

a shot to the head with a .45lc would blow the back of anyone's head out and you can clearly see in the 3rd angle video that this didn't happen. so the bullet either grazed the head, or he was hit with a .410 shot which would not have killed anyone at the range seen in the video, it probably wouldn't have even knocked anyone out.

You can also see in the video that the kid dropped forward, possibly to his knees, not onto his back, which is the position the affidavit says he was lying in when Mr. Ersland shot him with a kel-tec p-3at. So, according to the video, it looks as if he was able to move, and was possibly moving when shot on the ground.

Nobody but Mr. Ersland knows what condition that thug was in when he took his life, and I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

[Karried]

He killed an unarmed person who was completely incapacitated

Well, they said he didn't die from the gunshot wound to the head and that the stomach shots killed him.

So, I'm thinking since we can't see him lying on the ground, maybe he was trying to get up or gave an indication that he had a gun.

Has anyone said otherwise in the media?

In the heat of the moment filled with adrenaline & terror, who knows how we would all react?

[fuzzytoad]

That's another thing I disagree with the DA, demanding that the man be held in jail without bond. Thankfully, the judge changed that and the man is free until further notice. Altho, he is not allowed to be in possession of a gun, hopefully the ladies have a permit to carry a gun. If not, hire security from open to close.

from NewsOK.com: "The judge refused to change her decision, saying Ersland can get another job. "If somebody wants to be around him, they are not going to have access to a gun," the judge said."

That's why it's going to be open season on that pharmacy.. I just hope all the windows are bullet-proof.

[bandnerd]

But seriously, 5 rounds to the abdomen? It takes that much? Why not just another shot to the head?

I'm just trying to understand the reasoning here. It just seems like it was letting him suffer. Yes, he tried to rob a place. He did not actually harm anyone. I'm not saying I agree with the kid trying to rob the store, however, this isn't eye for an eye...

[fuzzytoad]

Somebody might correct me, but the outside camera appeared that they came out of the store and ran N out the camera view. The pharmacist chased him out and then walked back into the store. You would think that if he was in such fear of that he would have immediately locked the front door behind him.

the door to that pharmacy is designed so that an employee has to buzz customers in. That's why the kid who was shot placed a piece of wood(or something) in the doorframe when they walked in..

They knew exactly what they were doing and had planned it out.

I watched the 2nd angle video again to see if Mr. Ersland moved the board on his way back into the store and it doesn't look like he did, but state-of-mind and being used to the fact that the door is *always* locked probably kept him from even thinking about the need to do any more to it..

[fuzzytoad]

But seriously, 5 rounds to the abdomen? It takes that much? Why not just another shot to the head?

I'm just trying to understand the reasoning here. It just seems like it was letting him suffer. Yes, he tried to rob a place. He did not actually harm anyone. I'm not saying I agree with the kid trying to rob the store, however, this isn't eye for an eye...

in conceal carry classes, civilian police training and even regular military training, you're taught to always shoot to kill at the center mass. That training includes emptying every round at a threat any chance you get.

If Mr. Ersland was scared, which I don't doubt, he probably approached the body, which probably moved, triggering Mr. Ersland to do what he was trained to do.

it's only in movies and cop shows that one goes intentionaly for a headshot

[Midtowner]

in conceal carry classes, civilian police training and even regular military training, you're taught to always shoot to kill at the center mass. That training includes emptying every round at a threat any chance you get.

If Mr. Ersland was scared, which I don't doubt, he probably approached the body, which probably moved, triggering Mr. Ersland to do what he was trained to do.

it's only in movies and cop shows that one goes intentionaly for a headshot

As long as you're inventing facts to justify the outcome you want to occur, why not make things interesting? Have the robber start turning in to a werewolf or something.

[fuzzytoad]

As long as you're inventing facts to justify the outcome you want to occur, why not make things interesting? Have the robber start turning in to a werewolf or something.

I'm no more inventing facts than those who state that the thug on the ground was incapacitated, or unconscious, or just a "child" in a bad crowd.

I'm willing to give Mr. Ersland the benefit of the doubt and I imagine that's how it could have played out, and I was addressing the Why? irt the 5 shots to the abdomen instead of a clean calculated headshot.

and anyway, silver bullets are really economically and ballistically unfeasible.

[Midtowner]

I'm no more inventing facts than those who state that the thug on the ground was incapacitated, or unconscious, or just a "child" in a bad crowd.

I'm willing to give Mr. Ersland the benefit of the doubt and I imagine that's how it could have played out, and I was addressing the Why? irt the 5 shots to the abdomen instead of a clean calculated headshot.

and anyway, silver bullets are really economically and ballistically unfeasible.

The affidavit written after the investigation is what I'm going off of. What are you going off of? Ersland is already a confirmed liar, so I hope he's not your source of information.

[fuzzytoad]

The affidavit written after the investigation is what I'm going off of. What are you going off of? Ersland is already a confirmed liar, so I hope he's not your source of information.

I'm going off the videos(which nobody can lie about), the fact that Mr. Ersland is an Army veteran and a CCL holder, which means he's had multiple levels of fireams training, and the fact that due to the physical security measures of the store, the 3 individuals involved cased the place and planned this out.

I'm also going off affidavit information, which you've hopefully seen that I've commented on, and Mr. Ersland's testimony..

I question the affidavit in regards to gunfire by the kid who got away, the video *really* appears to show a shot, but I see that no casing was found.

I understand that Mr. Erlsand's testimony doesn't match up with the video(he clearly used the judge initially, then switched to the p-3at), but I dare anyone to recall such a moment with perfect clarity moments after it happened and with the knowledge that you just took a life.. I think that calling him a liar considering what he went thru as a tad bit harsh..

[Midtowner]

I understand that Mr. Erlsand's testimony doesn't match up with the video(he clearly used the judge initially, then switched to the p-3at), but I dare anyone to recall such a moment with perfect clarity moments after it happened and with the knowledge that you just took a life.. I think that calling him a liar considering what he went thru as a tad bit harsh..

He said there were several shots, one which grazed him and others which came close when in fact, there were no shots.

I'm just calling a spade a spade.

[bluedogok]

Are we really saying the death penalty is justified for every 16 year old kid who takes part in a robbery?

Are you supposed to ID someone who is waving a gun in your general direction during a robbery attempt? What is the "magical age" for defending yourself against someone who is holding a gun and has the potential for using it in a "menacing manner"?

You have no idea what someone is capable of, a 16 year old kid could be the one who is more afraid but they could also be nothing more than a cold blooded killer, you just don't know what the person holding the gun is capable of in that situation. Not every robbery attempt is a "clean" one with no physical harm done, psychological damage is ALWAYS done. There are robberies where the victims never had a chance because the perpetrators had every intention of killing all witnesses. The Sirloin Stockade Murders on I-240, the yogurt shop murders down here in Austin, most of the victims end up being the employees and not the perpetrators.

If you are willing to do the crime you should be willing to take the consequences of your actions, whether those are doled out by the state or the victim of your actions.

[fuzzytoad]

He said there were several shots, one which grazed him and others which came close when in fact, there were no shots.

I'm just calling a spade a spade.

and from watching the 3rd-angle video, I'm positive that there was at least one shot fired. The fact that there were no casings found doesn't mean there were no shots fired by the 14-year old. If he was using a revolver there wouldn't be any casings on the ground and despite what you see on CSI, finding a bullet fired into/around multiple shelves of tiny bottles seems to be a herculean task..

yes, he said he was grazed... I suppose that if someone was pointing a gun at me and I raked my arm while trying to move quickly in a confined space while wearing a backbrace, I'd panic and think I had been grazed, or worse..

"The evidence does not support his claim" does not mean he lied.. it means that further investigation and presentation of this investigation should be given into the hands of a jury to decide, not to villify a man who defended himself and others in a place where he has been victimized before.

[JerzeeGrlinOKC]

Here's what happened according to the affidavit:

1. Pharm shoots (and hits in the head) unarmed perp after perp's partner has pointed weapons at the pharm and employees.

2. Pharm continues to shoot at armed perp after unarmed perp fell down and stayed down.

3. Pharm chased armed perp out of store, passing by unarmed perp.

4. After chasing armed perp to no avail, pharm comes back into store, where unarmed perp is still on the ground.

5. Pharm walks past unarmed perp without incident or apparent fear.

6. Pharm gets the other gun, calmly walks over to fallen perp, and delivers a cylinder full of bullets into his stomach, which kills unarmed perp.


Now given THOSE facts, I think I understand the filing of charges.

What does everyone else think, given those came from a policeman's sworn affidavit after review of the video evidence has been filed stating those facts?

Obviously this case was not as clear as everyone thought it was. Out of my friends and coworkers though, I'm the only one who agrees that he should be at least tried; remember though that we are just readers of the news and don't have enough info to cast judgement; the judge and jury will have the final say. I hear statements like "since when do robbers have rights", but put it this way - if the pharm allowed the perp to live, would the perp be put to death for robbery? No. If its true that the perp posed no threat to the pharm at the time of the second round of shots (the perp was incapacitated and obviously unarmed and the pharm knew it), then the pharm decided what was justice for the perp - not the justice system. If that is what in fact happened.

If true, it sounds like the lines of self defense may have been crossed. But again that's for the jury to decide. This will be an interesting hearing.

[fuzzytoad]

Obviously this case was not as clear as everyone thought it was. Out of my friends and coworkers though, I'm the only one who agrees that he should be at least tried; remember though that we are just readers of the news and don't have enough info to cast judgement; the judge and jury will have the final say. I hear statements like "since when do robbers have rights", but put it this way - if the pharm allowed the perp to live, would the perp be put to death for robbery? No. If its true that the perp posed no threat to the pharm at the time of the second round of shots (the perp was incapacitated and obviously unarmed and the pharm knew it), then the pharm decided what was justice for the perp - not the justice system. If that is what in fact happened.

If true, it sounds like the lines of self defense may have been crossed. But again that's for the jury to decide. This will be an interesting hearing.

I mostly agree with you.. Initially I was outraged that any charges at all were brought against Mr. Ersland..

After I watched the videos and thought about it overnight, I completely agree that the DA had no choice but to file charges, mainly based on video evidence.. I disagree on the level of charges, I think 1st degree murder is *waay* over the top, but I agree that a jury should decide what really happened..

and I also applaud DA Prater on his disagreement with the Judge in regards to the terms of Bond..

[PennyQuilts]

I understand the sentiment of many that anyone who comes into a store and tries to rob it deserves what they get. You don't want clerks hesitating to defend themselves for fear they will be second guessed - they might end up dead. I get all that.

And in fact, I am probably not the only one who feels a surge of "atta boy!" when I hear about a robber or a home invader getting blown away. Part of me wants it to happen to send a clear message to the low lifes out there that we aren't going to put up with their vicious attacks. For quite a few reasons, I really, really want this to be a rightious shooting and I sure wish it was clean. That being said, I hate to admit it but even if he was murdered, I honestly don't feel a lot of sympathy for the kid. Sorry, I should be ashamed of feeling that way but that is the way I feel. I am sure that if I knew him I would feel horrible. I am sure his family feels horrible and I wouldn't wish any additional pain on them because they are probably at the breaking point. But those are just my feelings and don't amount to anything.

So my inclination is to look for ways to believe that this shooting is okay. But based on the video, I have serious doubts. And that makes me frustrated with the pharmacist because I don't want there to be ambiguity on these things. I want robbers to get shot when they do something like this because I want thugs to stop doing it. I want the "good" guys to win.

Just my thoughts, for what they are worth.

Oh, and I thought Fuzzy Toad made some good points.

[Karried]

I agree with you EastCoastOkie in a lot of ways.

I'm more sympathetic to the poor guy just standing there minding his own business doing his job and then having to make the horrible decision to actually shoot someone to defend himself.

I think First Degree Murder is too harsh of a charge. I'm hoping the jury will consider long and hard the extenuating circumstances before throwing the book at this guy. It sucks.

But who knows what will happen? If the legal system worked the way it should, then the thugs would be deterred enough to not try armed robbery in the first place.. but it doesn't and here we are.

[fuzzytoad]

I understand the sentiment of many that anyone who comes into a store and tries to rob it deserves what they get. You don't want clerks hesitating to defend themselves for fear they will be second guessed - they might end up dead. I get all that.

And in fact, I am probably not the only one who feels a surge of "atta boy!" when I hear about a robber or a home invader getting blown away. Part of me wants it to happen to send a clear message to the low lifes out there that we aren't going to put up with their vicious attacks. For quite a few reasons, I really, really want this to be a rightious shooting and I sure wish it was clean. That being said, I hate to admit it but even if he was murdered, I honestly don't feel a lot of sympathy for the kid. Sorry, I should be ashamed of feeling that way but that is the way I feel. I am sure that if I knew him I would feel horrible. I am sure his family feels horrible and I wouldn't wish any additional pain on them because they are probably at the breaking point. But those are just my feelings and don't amount to anything.

So my inclination is to look for ways to believe that this shooting is okay. But based on the video, I have serious doubts. And that makes me frustrated with the pharmacist because I don't want there to be ambiguity on these things. I want robbers to get shot when they do something like this because I want thugs to stop doing it. I want the "good" guys to win.

Just my thoughts, for what they are worth.

Oh, and I thought Fuzzy Toad made some good points.

thanks!

I feel frustrated as well, mainly because my initial reaction was 'job well done!!'

I'm still firmly on the side of Mr. Ersland and personally believe that there was no wrongdoing on his part, but if, during a trial, it comes out that he was just frustrated with the multiple times his store had been hit and he took it out on an easy target, I'll accept that and be very disappointed..

my primary fear, in such an outcome, would be that already-restrictive gun laws would come into play in which people like Mr. Ersland couldn't get one while a 14-year old would be able to saunter into any number of establishments with a weapon that was already illegal under the former/semi-non-restrictive laws..

[Thunder]

Honestly, I'm excited that the kid is dead. It sends a powerful message to the people he hung out with, especially to the other person that ran away from the store. Now, he is somewhere, hiding, and looking back on what happened. Hopefully, this will get him guilty enough to surrender himself to the authorities.

All of those thugs and gangsters out there should be aware of this event and they better be thinking twice on their future actions. If this death doesn't wake them up, then so be it, that they end up dead or in jail.

I don't care about what the family of the dead kid is going thru. The way they acted, their attitude, going off saying the kid is an angel tells me that the family is no good either.

Now we sit and wait to see what the court system will do.

[fuzzytoad]

Honestly, I'm excited that the kid is dead. It sends a powerful message to the people he hung out with, especially to the other person that ran away from the store. Now, he is somewhere, hiding, and looking back on what happened. Hopefully, this will get him guilty enough to surrender himself to the authorities.

All of those thugs and gangsters out there should be aware of this event and they better be thinking twice on their future actions. If this death doesn't wake them up, then so be it, that they end up dead or in jail.

I don't care about what the family of the dead kid is going thru. The way they acted, their attitude, going off saying the kid is an angel tells me that the family is no good either.

Now we sit and wait to see what the court system will do.

They caught his primary accomplice, a 14-year old thug...

the 31-year old who drove the getaway car(and allegedly was armed with a shotgun, and who is a recently-released ex-con) is still at-large..

the primary problem here, imho, it that the Judge stipulated that Mr. Ersland only be given bond if he was barred from access to a gun or "If somebody wants to be around him, they are not going to have access to a gun".. to me that sends a clear message to the punks and thugs in this city that Mr. Ersland's pharmacy is an open target for retaliation..

[Thunder]

They caught his primary accomplice, a 14-year old thug...

Great news!

[OKCMallen]

from NewsOK.com: "The judge refused to change her decision, saying Ersland can get another job. "If somebody wants to be around him, they are not going to have access to a gun," the judge said."

That's why it's going to be open season on that pharmacy.. I just hope all the windows are bullet-proof.

This isn't a third world country. We don't operate in fear of the next crime on the public store. We prefer to assume no one is going to run in there tomorrow and kill people and rob the place.

[OKCMallen]

And in fact, I am probably not the only one who feels a surge of "atta boy!" when I hear about a robber or a home invader getting blown away. Part of me wants it to happen to send a clear message to the low lifes out there that we aren't going to put up with their vicious attacks.

Hey, me too....I just hope that if I'm ever in the same situation, I don't make the mistake the pharm did...but we all make mistakes.