Will Rogers World Airport

[venture]

I really like the drain spout near what appears to be an electrical box. LOL

[bluedogok]

I really like the drain spout near what appears to be an electrical box. LOL

Could be an all-weather electrical box......but I doubt it.

[bombermwc]

Id say maybe someone forgot to put guttering on that one pipe, except it looks like they did that all the way down the row....yeah that's pretty dumb.

[HOT ROD]

Could have captured that rain, perhaps

[soondoc]

I posted this on the aviation thread but got no responses. I would love to hear what you all think about this. Is it something that is fantasy, long shot, or perhaps feasible and could pick up steam if the right people get on board as well as many citizens.

I had a dream while driving from Tulsa to OKC a couple weeks ago. The distance between the 2 cities is officially 104 miles but outskirt to outskirt is about 84 miles or less. How amazing would it be for our state and 2 cities to join together and build a major airport about 40 miles from each other somewhere near the middle?

Now at first it just doesn't seem to appealing but lets sweeten the pot. OKC just had an article come out about how the city is thriving and becoming a hip place to be. What if we invest in the state's first high speed rail between OKC and Tulsa? It would stop at the central airport about 38-44 miles from each city. At a 110 miles per hour it would take about 25 minutes or so to get to the terminal. I could envision a huge stop at each city on the edge of town with a huge parking lot, hotels, etc. to park and catch the train. Just relax and 25 minutes it drops you off at the terminal.

This would be cutting edge, drastically increase the size of the airport as it would be much more traffic. With that goes more flights, choices, destinations, etc. Even more importantly, it will do something that has never happened. It will begin develop in each direction towards the airport. I've always wondered why Tulsa has never grown west or OKC to the northeast, because both have the nicest and beautiful natural landscape with more hills and trees and natural vegetation.

I know it sounds like a pipe dream but could you imagine how big time that would be and what we could become? One big major airport serving both of our largest cities and a high speed rail to boot. I think high speed is coming soon and why not get on it now? People around the nation that haven't noticed that Oklahoma is arriving will soon get the memo. Please don't get on here and mock me, I know it's hypothetical but on that drive I realized how it really could be done and how amazing it could be if we got behind something like this.

Before anyone says "who will want to commute 25-30 on a train to got to the airport", well people in many big cities would laugh if that was our argument. We are so blessed to not have huge and long commutes like so many other places. Heck, even in the DFW area, people drive 40-60 minutes to go to the airport depending on where they live and how much traffic. I would like to see OKC and TUL stop competing so much and join forces and become a symbiotic and major metropolitan force that may have population growing between each city. Time to start connecting he dots now I say. Pass it one folks!

[shawnw]

It would be neat, but only if there was an economic incentive to cut losses with the existing airports.

If we're talking shared economic incentives between the two metros, I'd rather see a NASCAR-capable track go 40 miles between. Lots of race fans here, and we'd get the folks from KC and TX as well...

[Plutonic Panda]

I would rather OKC build a mega airport in place of Will Rodgers, but the people on here that are in the know said that wouldn't work, the more I think about it, forcing things on the market doesn't always end up well.

[venture]

A large airport in the middle will never work. Business passengers would have it. Fly into Airport > Take Train > Pickup Car or Connect to other Mass Transit. Whereas now it is Fly Into Airport > Pickup Car or Mass Transit. If you add in another leg of travel, people won't do it.

[bluedogok]

Bad idea, when DFW was built they still had infill cities growing into each other, right now that dynamic is present between OKC and Tulsa. It occasionally gets mentioned for Austin/San Antonio but neither city wants it and like venture stated, business travelers wouldn't like it. That's the reason why Dallas Love, Houston Hobby, Chicago Midway and other close in airports stayed open.

[OUman]

I posted this on the aviation thread but got no responses. I would love to hear what you all think about this. Is it something ... Pass it one folks!

The idea has been passed around before with not much stellar results. Don't get me wrong, I'm in no way "shooting down" the idea but most people will not accept it, it's as simple as that. A similar proposal was up when Austin wanted to replace Robert Mueller Airport. The FAA proposed a new airport halfway between San Antonio and Austin but that didn't fly (no pun intended of course). Most Austinites rejected the idea. And the distance there is even less than between Oklahoma City and Tulsa.

That train you mentioned - keep in mind that while some people drive down to DFW International, Will Rogers still gets people from surrounding towns outside the metro. Anyone say in Blanchard, Noble, Goldsby, or even Chickasha wanting to go to an airport halfway between our two largest metros will now face a much longer time just to fly out of the state. Even from Norman, if I'm going to get in a train to go to an airport, I do not want to go all the way to Oklahoma City driving for 25 minutes (or longer if there's an accident/traffic issue), find a parking spot, then get in a train for another 25-30 minutes when I could have easily just driven to Will Rogers in half the time or less. Throw in traffic problems and it gets even less appealing. I'd much rather have that train leave from Norman and take me straight to the airport.

This has been done in Europe for years already where distances are much less, they already have excellent public transportation systems in the cities which actually aids the process and it's actually more convenient than driving a car. Only now will DFW be getting its own commuter rail service coming from an already established DART system; a new line to Terminal A. It only took what, 40 years or so?

You're talking about Dallas and Ft. Worth, the two cities are right next to each other. Urban sprawl and rapid growth is what has lead to commute times to DFW as long as you mentioned, but I guess most people accept it since a. DFW is going nowhere and b. the availability of a hub with flights to over 200 cities is a big plus that offsets the pain of driving to the airport. Even with an airport halfway between Tulsa and Oklahoma City, there isn't going to be a hub with options to even 1/3rd that many number of cities to fly to. Besides, the total traffic count between the two cities is about 6.5 million passengers a year? Whereas DFW is about 10 times as many at 60 mil.

It's not a cut-and-dried kind of deal, a lot of factors go into what people will and will not accept. And in our current situation, the way things are, most residents in either city are pretty comfortable with their own airports. Again, I do appreciate the idea, it's something I have thought of too and would be pretty cool to have, but for now it's not something that is feasible.

[bombermwc]

I think the only way this would ever work is if there were 15 minute point-to-point high speed trains from both Tulsa and OKC to deliver passengers to the shared airport.

But to be honest, I would hate this. And both airports are big enough to make it not really make sense. Somewhere like Mobile/Pensacola/Biloxi where things are spread out are a good place to look at this. And even in smaller places like that, you've got cities that built their own airports...even at the expense of higher ticket costs and minimal gates (like 6-8), prop planes, SMALL planes, etc. So the ability to drive a short distance always seems to take priority over anything else. People are willing to pay for the hop to DFW (or ATL for those southern folks) to be able to get on a plane IN town. And being a smaller airport means that you have shorter lines too....less time walking....closer parking, etc.

[venture]

Part of me feels as if these ideas comes from this notion of localizing all of Oklahoma into one group. It is pretty rare to see this in other states where the mentality can be to consolidate everyone into one locality even though it is a decently sized state. I don't know if this is just because there aren't other larger cities around the state or that everyone tends to have roots that connects people. It could also be something like news coverage, which here in OKC exposes us to nearly the entire state all the time just due to viewing areas being inflated. If you go to other states and cities, you really don't have such a broad brush approach. Look at weather warning maps. OKC stations have the entire state, even though the eastern third and SW OK aren't in the defined viewing areas. You don't see a station in Columbus Ohio for example show a map for the entire state - they just due their central Ohio viewing area.

Hopefully that came across clear enough to understand. Some people seem to want OKC & Tulsa to be the next D/FW...but there is simply too much distance. It would be like expecting Chicago and Milwaukee (which are closer together) to be proposing similar options.

[HangryHippo]

Part of me feels as if these ideas comes from this notion of localizing all of Oklahoma into one group. It is pretty rare to see this in other states where the mentality can be to consolidate everyone into one locality even though it is a decently sized state. I don't know if this is just because there aren't other larger cities around the state or that everyone tends to have roots that connects people. It could also be something like news coverage, which here in OKC exposes us to nearly the entire state all the time just due to viewing areas being inflated. If you go to other states and cities, you really don't have such a broad brush approach. Look at weather warning maps. OKC stations have the entire state, even though the eastern third and SW OK aren't in the defined viewing areas. You don't see a station in Columbus Ohio for example show a map for the entire state - they just due their central Ohio viewing area.

Hopefully that came across clear enough to understand. Some people seem to want OKC & Tulsa to be the next D/FW...but there is simply too much distance. It would be like expecting Chicago and Milwaukee (which are closer together) to be proposing similar options.

Interesting take, Venture. I'd never really thought of it that way. It just seemed like a reasonable idea to consolidate resources (if you will) in a state that doesn't have a plethora of dollars to spend. Sometimes I feel like Oklahoma is at a disadvantage by having two large cities that split a not so large population if that makes any sense. It seems that a lot of states that are our size get to focus everything on one city and it can flourish but we don't get that here. For example, Omaha or Des Moines or Denver or Salt Lake City get to be the lone major cities in their respective states that get the majority of attention. Sometimes I think it'd be easier (better?) to just have one city to focus on and improve.

[soondoc]

If the 2 markets combined in many areas, it would more or less make both markets stronger nationally. They would both be a much larger TV market and have a combined metro population of close to 2.5 million people. That does make a difference I promise. With strong growth, they could actually hit the 3 million mark in the near future. If a high speed rail with 15-18 minute service to a proposed airport was built, the growth between the 2 cities would increase dramatically. That would include hotels, restaurants and other industries. It may never be a DFW but could become more of a regional metro area where the cities become a power together rather than mediocre on the national scale without each other. A high speed rail would be amazing and connect the cities like never before.

[catch22]

combined metro? The farthest parts of the two metros are 140 miles apart. That's just way too far to consider the same metro area.

[soondoc]

Hey, half glass empty catch22. I am talking about more in the lines of them becoming one big market instead of 2 medium sized competing markets. For example, the NBA folks and people wanting to relocate or start a company, it would be more of a win-win for both cities. Have 1 big TV market instead of 2. Have 1 big airport instead of 2 small ones. Have a high speed rail that links the 2 cities and a 15 minute service to the airport between both places. I know it will never be DFW or connect to each other. I am thinking more along the lines of growth along the Turner Turnpike between each cities which is from downtown to downtown 104 miles. From the outskirts to each other, that distance shrinks to about 75-80 miles.

[catch22]

The cost to do it would completely outweigh any gained efficiency from combining operations.

Sorry if being realistic is "glass half empty".

[Mel]

Tulsa having to share an airport with OKC? Them's fighting words.

[mugofbeer]

Bad idea, when DFW was built they still had infill cities growing into each other, right now that dynamic is present between OKC and Tulsa. It occasionally gets mentioned for Austin/San Antonio but neither city wants it and like venture stated, business travelers wouldn't like it. That's the reason why Dallas Love, Houston Hobby, Chicago Midway and other close in airports stayed open.

When I lived in Dallas in the Grapevine area, I loved DFW. Once you figure out how to drive it and the flow, its actually very convenient. Now that I am in Denver and 40 miles from DIA, you start to be thankful for airports in other cities. I just find DIA horribly inconvenient for those of us who live there. Different airports built for opposite purposes.

[tfvc.org]

When I lived in Dallas in the Grapevine area, I loved DFW. Once you figure out how to drive it and the flow, its actually very convenient. Now that I am in Denver and 40 miles from DIA, you start to be thankful for airports in other cities. I just find DIA horribly inconvenient for those of us who live there. Different airports built for opposite purposes.

I was born and raised in Denver and remember when they announced DIA. First thought is why the eff are they putting that airport so far out in BFE? I lived in the SW (Chatfield area) and the NW (Arvada) parts of the city and I thought Stapleton was a long drive. Dulles was the same experience.

[venture]

Interesting take, Venture. I'd never really thought of it that way. It just seemed like a reasonable idea to consolidate resources (if you will) in a state that doesn't have a plethora of dollars to spend. Sometimes I feel like Oklahoma is at a disadvantage by having two large cities that split a not so large population if that makes any sense. It seems that a lot of states that are our size get to focus everything on one city and it can flourish but we don't get that here. For example, Omaha or Des Moines or Denver or Salt Lake City get to be the lone major cities in their respective states that get the majority of attention. Sometimes I think it'd be easier (better?) to just have one city to focus on and improve.

I get what you are saying, but I would say UT and CO are in more unique setups to where geography and geology dictate how things are setup. Iowa, from an air traffic stand point, still has service at DSM, Cedar Rapids, and Quad Cities. Focusing on one city at the expense of others just weakens the state as a whole. Most of those states with one dominate one don't really have much choice because so much land isn't habitable. It is interesting you bring up OMA and DSM though since they really aren't that much further apart than OKC and TUL. You wouldn't find them looking to build a consolidated airport though.

If the 2 markets combined in many areas, it would more or less make both markets stronger nationally. They would both be a much larger TV market and have a combined metro population of close to 2.5 million people. That does make a difference I promise. With strong growth, they could actually hit the 3 million mark in the near future. If a high speed rail with 15-18 minute service to a proposed airport was built, the growth between the 2 cities would increase dramatically. That would include hotels, restaurants and other industries. It may never be a DFW but could become more of a regional metro area where the cities become a power together rather than mediocre on the national scale without each other. A high speed rail would be amazing and connect the cities like never before.

Where are you going to find the money is what I would like to know. HSR isn't going to be cheap. The new airport isn't going to be cheap - well over a couple billion would be my guess. However, how are you going to force airlines to not fly to OKC or TUL? What about the Air National Guard bases? The FAA center? The counter maintenance centers in OKC? The FTC and JPATS? I would invite you to revisit the history of Love Field in Dallas and how well it worked telling airlines to move out to the a field in the middle of (then) nowhere and see how it goes.

Hey, half glass empty catch22. I am talking about more in the lines of them becoming one big market instead of 2 medium sized competing markets. For example, the NBA folks and people wanting to relocate or start a company, it would be more of a win-win for both cities. Have 1 big TV market instead of 2. Have 1 big airport instead of 2 small ones. Have a high speed rail that links the 2 cities and a 15 minute service to the airport between both places. I know it will never be DFW or connect to each other. I am thinking more along the lines of growth along the Turner Turnpike between each cities which is from downtown to downtown 104 miles. From the outskirts to each other, that distance shrinks to about 75-80 miles.

Do you realize how much infill would need to happen for them to be one big market? There simply isn't the population density for something like that, not to mention the significant sprawl that would have to take place. DFW shouldn't even be in this consideration. Downtown Dallas to Downtown Fort Worth is around 30 miles. Downtown OKC to Downtown Tulsa is over 100 miles. You say the outskirts shrinks the distance...that's great. Where is the bulk of the population? Hint...it isn't NE OKC. Also let's be real, OKC is over 50 miles across when you evaluate the furthest points on the map. That is a pretty large area all by itself.

[bluedogok]

When I lived in Dallas in the Grapevine area, I loved DFW. Once you figure out how to drive it and the flow, its actually very convenient. Now that I am in Denver and 40 miles from DIA, you start to be thankful for airports in other cities. I just find DIA horribly inconvenient for those of us who live there. Different airports built for opposite purposes.

It's fine for us being in the southeast metro area, we are out near E-470 & Smoky Hill and about 25 minutes from DIA, it is about 40 minutes from the office in LoDo. I manage most of our projects out at DIA so I make the trip often.

The only metro area airport built in recent years that works is XNA but that is because the cities in that area are much smaller than an OKC or Tulsa and are only like 10-20 miles away from each other.

[venture]

The only metro area airport built in recent years that works is XNA but that is because the cities in that area are much smaller than an OKC or Tulsa and are only like 10-20 miles away from each other.

I think ECP (Northwest Florida Beaches Int'l - Panama City) was built after XNA.

[Plutonic Panda]

Where are you going to find the money is what I would like to know. HSR isn't going to be cheap. The new airport isn't going to be cheap - well over a couple billion would be my guess. However, how are you going to force airlines to not fly to OKC or TUL? What about the Air National Guard bases? The FAA center? The counter maintenance centers in OKC? The FTC and JPATS? I would invite you to revisit the history of Love Field in Dallas and how well it worked telling airlines to move out to the a field in the middle of (then) nowhere and see how it goes

You can revisit history all you want, but DFW now offers non-stop to cities in China and Japan, that is pretty damn good.

You are completely right about the distance issue, which is something I really didn't think about when I first asked about a possible OKC-Tulsa msa, which I no longer support.

[venture]

You can revisit history all you want, but DFW now offers non-stop to cities in China and Japan, that is pretty damn good.

You are completely right about the distance issue, which is something I really didn't think about when I first asked about a possible OKC-Tulsa msa, which I no longer support.

DFW is also home to a large hub so the level of service is inflated some. I'm sure we could dig up O&D data on the international routes, but really that is going to take us off topic even more.