Penn Square Mall

[Spartan]

Which is closer to reality than other people's understanding of what Penn Square is.

I already said it was intended as hyperbole. But you guys refusal to acknowledge anything wrong with that mall or any mall.....

[Questor]

Reading this thread is kind of interesting... you know really each of us has a small piece of the puzzle in our own ways. I think it's a valid point that Penn Square is a successful and relatively nice looking mall, and can be considered fairly upscale for Oklahoma. I also think that it is a valid point that, compared to most major metropolitan areas or even smaller cities that for various reasons simply have a wider base of wealthy clientele, that Penn Square isn't really operating anywhere near that level of sophistication.

It is interesting that so many posts are comparing/contrasting Penn Square with The Galleria in Dallas, because I really don't consider that mall upscale. I think it is very voluminous, and it does contain a Versache and a few other stores you don't normally see, but it's more of a tourist trap than anything else. So it makes me wonder if maybe this whole thread is a big misunderstanding. That's certainly possible when we are all just throwing our own opinions around.

I guess when I think of an upscale mall, the closest thing to this that we have within 500 miles in my opinion is probably NorthPark Center. If you're not familiar with it, it's in Dallas off of the Central Expressway, sort of in the "old money" area of University Park. The place is just phenomenal looking... the landscaping is perfect outside, and inside the place has sort of a modernist feel and is full of artwork. Here are some photos:








The store directory is also equally impressive:

http://www.northparkcenter.com/storedirectory_cat.php


There are stores in that list that we could only hope to get one day. The really shocking thing is that, for as impressive as that mall is to me an Oklahoman, after traveling some I have come to realize why so many on the East and West Coast knock Dallas retail... as far as 'upscale' goes, whatever that means, Dallas is just sort of at the very beginning rung with many of its top malls. It is really bewildering to see what all is out there and realize how vast the differences in malls and offerings can be.

I think it is selling ourselves short to think that we couldn't support at least one truly upscale offering somewhere in this state. Now I don't think we could do anything nearly as expansive as what is seen elsewhere, we just don't have the population to support it, but to think that this city doesn't have the people who have the means to and want to shop at some of these stores, I just don't think that is accurate at all. For years OKC was and I think still is at the top of the list of cities doing large amounts of catalog and internet sales from Neimann-Marcus. If you look at the number of extremely wealthy people we have living here from the oil and gas business, or just people making very good livings into the hundreds of thousands of dollars in that industry and several others, I know the customer base is there.

Now whether or not wanting these items is a vapid pursuit of materialism is something that must be decided by each individual. It's a free world and people can believe what they want. But for those who don't agree with that sentiment and have the money and wherewithal to shop at an upscale retailer, it would be nice if there were more options in the OKC metro. Or if an average Joe wants to go to a place like this and splurge big bucks on one really nice suit jacket why not? Lots of people fall into that realm.

I guess what I take away from all of this is that of the average class of malls Penn Square is definitely upscale and one of the best malls in the state (although I think Woodland Hills edges it out slightly... just personal preference... they have a few more stores there than what we have available here). But if we're talking about the next tier up from there, whatever you want to call that, Penn Square just isn't part of that class of mall.

[Questor]

Here are some additional pictures of NorthPark Center:

http://www.northparkcenter.com/experience/index.html

[jdcf]

I agree with virtually every statement Questor has made.

I don't think the Galleria is nearly on par with NorthPark. Likewise, I prefer the design of Woodland Hills to Penn Square perhaps because it was built from the gorund up rather than as a redevelopment of a redevelopment of an existing property that I wish could have been left alone. (Thanks Mike OKC for the picture of the original shopping center!) I prefer Penn Square to Quail Springs and am glad to see the store changes that have evolved over time.

[bombermwc]

For what it's worth, i never said Galleria was upscale....it's just a size comparison.

Spartan, how interesting how so many people disagree and you decide to just abandon your comments rather than give any details to support them. When you and I disagree, at least i'll make the good fight to support my arguement.

You'll also find Woodland Hills and Quail decorated in almost the same exact manner. So if you're comparing the structures, you're really on level ground. If you're comparing the stores inside the mall, they're still pretty equal. Now, how the mall is doing from the corporate side is totally different. Penn has been around for a long time, in its various forms. With that, you're limited in how "cool" the design on the place because of structural elements. So no, it's not the most architecturally interesting places you'll see but come on. Since when did that define how well a mall does?

[MikeOKC]

The Houston Galleria - now there's an 'upscale' mall. I love that place. I did a search to post a picture and ran into several Forbes stories on malls around the world. On their "World's Best Malls" list were ten malls and only three were in the United States: The Galleria in Houston, Bellagio in Vegas, and The Shops at Columbus Circle in NYC.

How about largest malls? Here's a list of ten and none of them are in the USA. Some of them could better be called a mini-cities.

I just realized I forgot to do what I set out to do - grab some pics of Houston's Galleria. But it's on that first list and you can always go to their website. It's a stunner of a place and is mixed-use with hotels, condos, office towers and almost 400 stores.

Description of The Galleria in Houston from Simon:

With its stunning architecture, exceptional store mix and distinctive style of entertainment, The Galleria has established itself as the #1 shopping and tourist destination in Houston with over 24 million annual visitors.

Set beneath spectacular glass atriums, The Galleria features more than 375 fine stores and restaurants, an impressive ice rink and two Westin hotels. This world-class shopping complex showcases the best names in retailing including Neiman Marcus, Cartier, Gucci, Tiffany & Co., Saks Fifth Avenue, Macy's, Ralph Lauren Collection, Louis Vuitton, Chanel, and Nordstrom.

With the expansion that opened in March 2003, The Galleria became the fourth largest mall in the nation highlighted by nine types of stone, suspended glass balconies, three types of wood, glass skylights, and plush leather seating. With three office towers, two hotels, 2.4 million square feet of retail space, and a variety of restaurants, The Galleria is a city within a city.

[EBAH]

I think this entire debate is stupid and have had a good laugh reading all of the childish bickering......anyway, with that out of the way. Anyone who thinks the Galleria is somehow superior to NorthPark Center is just wrong (IMHO of course ). Northpark is on a whole other level than the Galleria. It's not some silly MEGA mall with gimicks and a hotel for tourists. It's an institution, with a first rate art collection, a garden, and an extremely upscale portfolio of tenants, not to mention a great selection of more mid range major brands. It's not just an upscale mall, it's like legitimately and truly quite beautiful in parts. And besides, the Talking Heads filmed True Stories there..... Now, wasn't this thread suposed to be about changes in the lineup at Penn Square Mall???

[Bunty]

I think this entire debate is stupid and have had a good laugh reading all of the childish bickering......anyway, with that out of the way. Anyone who thinks the Galleria is somehow superior to NorthPark Center is just wrong (IMHO of course ). Northpark is on a whole other level than the Galleria. It's not some silly MEGA mall with gimicks and a hotel for tourists. It's an institution, with a first rate art collection, a garden, and an extremely upscale portfolio of tenants, not to mention a great selection of more mid range major brands. It's not just an upscale mall, it's like legitimately and truly quite beautiful in parts. And besides, the Talking Heads filmed True Stories there.

If NorthPark Center is this wonderful upscale mall, then why the hell is the Gap in it?

[EBAH]

If NorthPark Center is this wonderful upscale mall, then why the hell is the Gap in it?

HAHAHAHAHAHA the Galleria has a Gap too...as do the Forum Shoppes at Ceaser's Palace, as does Newbury St in Boston, as does Rodeo Drive in Beverly Hills, as does 5th Ave in New York, as does Michigan Ave in Chicago, getting the idea here? I'm pretty sure that was a dab of sarcasm though.

But really NorthPark has a Gap (and tons of other lower end stores) because it is a great and fully functional retail center. WAY too many people on this board think things need to be all one thing or another. The beauty of a thing like Northpark is that it is organic and really functional for it's community. The thing is, that an upscale mall that ONLY has high end retailers in it is a useless as one that only has low end tenants. A retail complex the size of a shopping mall needs a healthy diversity and needs to offer things to both a slightly lower income customer as well as slightly lower end goods to an "upscale" customers (the extravagantly wealthy don't always buy 100% ludicrously high priced merchandise, many very wealthy women still buy cheap Vnecks at the Gap and have teenage kids that want band Tshirts from Hot Topic or Urban Outfitters). The lesson that should be learned from Northpark Center is that a mall can be upscale without making it sterile and uninviting, without making it exclusionary. I think Penn Square is a pretty great Mid market mall that is organically becoming a more upscale mall. That is EXACTLY what this city needs, a shopping center that becomes more upscale at the same pace the community around it is.

[bombermwc]

Hahahaha bunty!!!

[Spartan]

For what it's worth, i never said Galleria was upscale....it's just a size comparison.

Spartan, how interesting how so many people disagree and you decide to just abandon your comments rather than give any details to support them. When you and I disagree, at least i'll make the good fight to support my arguement.

Huh??

[Patrick]

WOW! This thread went way off course. Anyways, since I started it, I'll end with this. Penn Square is a nice mid-level mall. I don't think anyone here ever tried to say it could be compared to Northpark Center or The Houston Galleria. No comparison. So, to make such comparisons is foolish. And, due to demographics and land restrictions, I don't think you're going to see Penn Square move into that league. Those are much larger cities with lots more money. Even expansion plans at Penn Square may not happen, because, from what I've heard, the Whileman-Belle Isle Neighborhood Association isn't too hip on the expansion because of increased traffic in the area. We'll just have to wait and see what happens.

And I don't really consider stores like UO, The Container Store, Crate and Barrell, super upperscale. I mean, they're quality mid to upscale national retailers, but that's about it. But, I don't think most of us here are expecting Penn Square to become anything comparable to Northpark Center. Heck, I'd be happy with an addition of a Nordstrom, and another wing for mid to upscale retailers.

[OKCTalker]

It's not Rodeo Drive so it's a dump. Or - is RODEO DRIVE a dump too?

[ljbab728]

It's not Rodeo Drive so it's a dump. Or - is RODEO DRIVE a dump too?

[Larry OKC]

It's not Rodeo Drive so it's a dump. Or - is RODEO DRIVE a dump too?

Depends if it is the California pronunciation (row-DAY-oh) or Okie (road-EEE-oh)

[MikeOKC]

Hasn't Spartan, himself, already admitted he was being hyperbolic? Penn Square is a nice mall - no question about it. It shouldn't be compared to tier-one malls. This is getting a bit old.

[proud2Bsooner]

Sorry, but it doesn't read like a hyperbole, particularly when he cites his examples of "dumpiness".

My two cents...I can remember going to PSM as a kid in the summer, when it was an outdoor mall, and although outdoor malls are all the rage now, I specifically remember hating it. The sun would kill you. I think the same way in regards to the outlet mall, even with the lousy canopies. It's Oklahoma for heaven's sake! And yes, I agree that PSM is a nice mall. "Upscale" is such a tired word on OKCTalk, regularly used by wannabees. Malls are for the masses, and they have to have a level of economic variety to survive in good times and bad. I'll cite 50 Penn as an example.

[poe]

Hasn't Spartan, himself, already admitted he was being hyperbolic? Penn Square is a nice mall - no question about it. It shouldn't be compared to tier-one malls. This is getting a bit old.

I agree. Be happy with the store lineup currently at Penn and be excited about potential changes that could be in the works. Time to move on.

[ShiroiHikari]

How come everyone always speaks in such black-and-white terms? Penn Square isn't upscale, but it isn't a dump either...

The departure of Pottery Barn Kids doesn't seem like too much of a loss to me-- probably not too many folks around these parts willing to spend that kind of money on furniture they'll have to get rid of in five years.

[betts]

This thread has mostly been an exercise of failure in context. I used overly strong language, granted, but my "Penn Square is a dump" retort was mostly in response to praise for Penn Square. This is what we Okies do, we like to delude ourselves into thinking Penn Square is the Galleria de la Oklahoma and the grandest, fanciest mall that exists. It's probably an average mall by most standards. It is so successful economically because developers and mall owners (such as Simon) have figured out that they can invest very little into a property in OKC and still have a controlling market share and enjoy next to zero real competition.

I like to think that OKC is home of slightly more discerning shoppers than the Grand Forks, ND Olive Garden columnist mindset ("This is the nicest restaurant in our city.") Yes, parking is abundant, shootings and gang violence are infrequent compared to Quail Springs, and the tenant mix is barely acceptable. But for being "OKC's premier retail destination" (nobody can really argue otherwise), within THAT strict context, yes it's a dump. And it's days are probably more limited than any of us would imagine, or than I would care to guess. It's an indoor mall, and it's ownership is pretty content with things the way they are--it won't take much to create the next-greatest-ever "OKC's premier retail destination," and I would say CHK is already well on their way.

Isn't that a rather elitist comment? Shouldn't we have shopping for the masses? Should we economically exclude people from shopping at our most desirable mall? Or should we relegate them to even dumpier dumps because they don't happen to have enough money for upscale shopping? .....just sayin....

Most of the upscale shopping I've seen in other cities is not in malls. Dallas doesn't count because they haven't learned how to be truly urban yet.

[OklahomaNick]

I have a feeling that all the people that are blasting Penn Square Mall are exactly the ones that do not shop there, and are the ones that probably stick to ROSS and TJ MAXX.

Penn is a really nice mall, and not just by Oklahoma standards! Sometimes I just don't understand all the complaining I see on OKCtalk these days! It seems like 75% of all posts are negative! You would have thought this was Detroit! Come on people.. be positive today!

[Lafferty Daniel]

I have a feeling that all the people that are blasting Penn Square Mall are exactly the ones that do not shop there, and are the ones that probably stick to ROSS and TJ MAXX.

Penn is a really nice mall, and not just by Oklahoma standards! Sometimes I just don't understand all the complaining I see on OKCtalk these days! It seems like 75% of all posts are negative! You would have thought this was Detroit! Come on people.. be positive today!

75% of the posts might be negative, but it's about 2% of the posters that are making those...

It would serve this board well to perma-ban a few people. Then threads like this wouldn't happen nearly as often. But hey, a guy can dream right?

[soonerliberal]

Penn is a really nice mall, and not just by Oklahoma standards! Sometimes I just don't understand all the complaining I see on OKCtalk these days! It seems like 75% of all posts are negative! You would have thought this was Detroit! Come on people.. be positive today!

What standards would you say makes Penn a "really nice mall". Granted it is pretty decent and is really nice as compared to other malls in the metro area, but when you compare it to what constitutes a "really nice mall" in most cities, it doesn't pass the smell test.

Penn is supposed to be the top mall in OKC. When you compare it to top malls in metro areas of a comparable size, it does not contain the same quality of merchants that the majority of those malls have. Yes, there are some nice stores. Yes, it is a decent mall and the best one in OKC. But no, it is not a "really nice mall" when you look outside of Oklahoma standards.

I think the point that most are missing is that we shouldn't to continue to settle for mediocrity when there is potential for excellence. Rather than being defensive, why not think about some solutions to the situation?

[OklahomaNick]

What standards would you say makes Penn a "really nice mall". Granted it is pretty decent and is really nice as compared to other malls in the metro area, but when you compare it to what constitutes a "really nice mall" in most cities, it doesn't pass the smell test.

Penn is supposed to be the top mall in OKC. When you compare it to top malls in metro areas of a comparable size, it does not contain the same quality of merchants that the majority of those malls have. Yes, there are some nice stores. Yes, it is a decent mall and the best one in OKC. But no, it is not a "really nice mall" when you look outside of Oklahoma standards.

I think the point that most are missing is that we shouldn't to continue to settle for mediocrity when there is potential for excellence. Rather than being defensive, why not think about some solutions to the situation?

I am still just struggling to come to grips with what everyone on here is defining as a "really nice mall!"
What do you want? Gucci, Prada, Louis Vuitton? Is that what defines a nice mall? What quality merchants would you want?

I have been to malls all over the country: King of Prussia in Philadelphia, Lakewood in Cleveland, All the Dallas malls (Galleria, NorthPark Etc.), All the major malls in Atlanta and Boston, The Metro Center in DC etc. and they are not any "nicer" than Penn Square. They may have Gucci, and all those other stores where you can buy a wallet for $1500, but other than that they all have the same stores that Penn has: Express, Apple, J.Crew, GAP, Pottery Barn, etc.

I have zero stake in Penn Square. In fact I try to avoid it at Christmas! Penn is not an upscale mall, but it is definitely upper middle scale, but most people on here are treating it like its Crossroads! I'm baffled

50 Penn, I believe, has the opportunity to bring in some upper scale clients.. Maybe that could be their niche

[Midtowner]

I have a feeling that all the people that are blasting Penn Square Mall are exactly the ones that do not shop there, and are the ones that probably stick to ROSS and TJ MAXX.

Penn is a really nice mall, and not just by Oklahoma standards! Sometimes I just don't understand all the complaining I see on OKCtalk these days! It seems like 75% of all posts are negative! You would have thought this was Detroit! Come on people.. be positive today!

Most of the folks complaining either have no frame of reference or have ridiculous expectations for this market. These are the same people who think OKC could support an NFL and NBA franchise at the same time.

Penn is a pretty good mall. When I need clothing, aside from my suits, which I buy exclusively from Tom James, Penn offers a great mix of selection and if you look you can usually find what you need on sale somewhere.