New Arena (formerly Prairie Surf)

[warreng88]

Parking in this area should be helped drastically by the streetcar circulator which would be open by the time the CCC would be able to be torn down.

[catch22]

The site is also large enough where a large mixed use parking structure could be built without shutting down the parking garage. (I think)

[warreng88]

From the Journal Record:

Prime potential: Leaders consider fate of Cox Convention Center space

By: Brian Brus September 18, 2014

OKLAHOMA CITY – The Cox Convention Center is marked to become one of the most valuable pieces of development property in downtown, city leaders said.

It will have to be torn down, of course – at the least, parking space under the center needs remediation. And that won’t happen until a new convention center has been built as part of the $777 million MAPS 3 sales tax package. So officials like Cathy O’Connor, president and CEO of the Alliance for Economic Development of Oklahoma City, and developer Mark Beffort are still looking five to 10 years down the road.

But planning momentum is a funny thing. Development drives faster development, said Roy Williams, president and CEO of the Greater Oklahoma City Chamber.

“Time will help shape what happens there, but when you look at raw facts, that is prime real estate,” Williams said. “It’s been our convention center for 40-plus years, which has driven a lot of development around it.

“So you’re going to hear multiple ideas as to the possibilities of what goes there next,” he said. “But I think it’s smart that city leaders have admitted they don’t know what to expect yet. Look at Project 180 and the Myriad Gardens and Stage Center – they’re creating opportunities that no one had even thought about 10 years ago.”

The MAPS 3 master plan projects that the first phase of the new convention center will be completed by 2019, at which time it should be ready to host events now being held at the Cox center. The latter will still be able to support overflow from the new center, O’Connor said.

So far, most of the discussion at City Hall has focused on where the new center will be built, its amenities and cost. O’Connor said enough progress has been made on those tasks that city leaders are starting to look at the Cox center being left behind.

Tom Anderson, the city’s municipal special projects manager, said it’s not too early to start considering the issue. The last major conversion of city property involved the former Central Oklahoma Transportation and Parking Authority transport hub, which became the Chesapeake Energy Arena. Discussion began in the 1990s, and the arena opened in 2002.

Some planning has been proposed by Populous, an architectural firm with offices in Kansas City, Missouri, that has been behind the new convention center. In order to make the new center successful, development of the surrounding territory has to be considered as well, officials said. A recent Populous study shows the Cox center would be rebuilt emphasizing offices with retail at street level. A quarter of the plot would be dedicated to hotel space and another quarter to undefined cultural attractions. Parking would be included, as well.

“It’s basically four square blocks of real estate that can be converted to nearly anything you want,” Williams said. “What we tend to hear from people is that it’s such a big piece of real estate that it has pros and cons. On one hand, it’s normally been difficult to assemble enough land like this. But four-block developments aren’t what typically occur today; the footprint is too big.

“I believe we’ll want to make it more pedestrian-friendly and possibly a multipurpose development, something more than just office,” he said. “You could easily envision a live-work-play lifestyle center with components of housing and retail.”

Williams said retail would be appreciated, but not to the scale of a large mall. Nor does he imagine an entertainment area to compete against Bricktown.

Beffort’s assessment of the Cox center’s potential matched the Populous conclusions. The space would likely attract a high-concept design backed with a significant amount of money.

“It would be an absolutely tremendous office site,” he said. “It would be a tremendous mixed-use space. A high-rise, I hope, with a retail component.”

O’Connor said the Alliance’s primary interest in the space for now is to remain flexible and see what best use it would serve. Her organization has already started receiving suggestions and feedback from downtown stakeholders.

“The consensus has been that they want to see more density downtown, and they saw that as a great development opportunity for the future,” she said.

Williams said: “We should keep our options open and wait until the point where decisions have to be made.

“That doesn’t mean we can’t plan and think and pursue and discuss,” he said. “But we don’t know what this market is going to be 10 years from now.”

[traxx]

When we get our new convention center, what do you guys think will happen to the Myriad? Will it be re-purposed or will it be torn down and the area redeveloped? What will be there?

[Pete]

There was a study done by OU a few years ago that recommended it be razed and the street grid restored:




And just last month, the City received the recommendations from a consulting company for the area around the new convention center and they also recommended replacing it with high-rise buildings:

OKCTalk - Consultants recommend demolishing Cox Center, adding office towers

[traxx]

I kinda like the idea of high rise buildings. What should they be, though? Residential? Office space? Mixed use?

[ljbab728]

I kinda like the idea of high rise buildings. What should they be, though? Residential? Office space? Mixed use?

It would likely be like the proposal on the west side of the Myriad Gardens with a combination.

[bombermwc]

The new CC doesn't have anything to do with the Cox center. The arena itself is still used fairly frequently and I just don't see them dozing portions of the building while keeping the arena. And the arena users aren't going to be able to go to the Peake because a) its too big and b) they can't afford it. Their only other option would be the fair grounds....and that's moving down in a bad way.

The ability to have the arenas next door to each other is also too valuable to give up. The Peak is going to be killed off at some point so we'll need somewhere to upgrade to. The city already owns a huge plot of land that could be developed for a new arena and then accommodate other things (like more adequate event parking for the two facilities).

A similar issue is going to come up comparing event space at the Cox center as compared to the new CC. The new CC is going to be the fancy new higher priced space. A lot of groups will see the older Cox center as a major bargain. It's still a nice facility on the north side and is a lot more in the middle of things than the new CC is. C2S is too far off development wise to call the new CC space walkable to much of anything.

Restoring the grid doesn't really get us anything. We're not lacking space for development...there's going to be a ton of room in C2S. If you want to focus highrise development in the core rather than C2S, you're going to have to make it more attractive in some way too. But keep in mind, things like the OU thing are just ideas...much like all of C2S. There is no masterplan when it comes to what developers decide to build. It's a total blank slate with the HOPE that people put in what we want. There is absolutely zero guarantees with that space....much like what we would see if the Cox center was dozed. The City stands to lose a LOT out of that and not get that much back.

[bchris02]

Personally I think the demolition of the Cox center is a lot farther off than a lot of people realize for the reasons bombermwc described. As much as I would like a slam dunk, mixed use development to break ground on the Cox block as soon as the new CC opens, I just don't see that happening. The arena is still much in use and I would imagine some conventions will still choose the Cox center based on price. I don't think it should be demolished until something is proposed to take its place. I also think the city should be extremely selective as to what eventually goes there. That is literally one of if not the most prime piece of real-estate in all of downtown OKC.

[Pete]

Once the new CC is open for business, almost all that activity will be shifted away from the Cox Center.

OKC does not need two arenas; the Staples Center hosts TWO NBA teams, a NHL team and has way more concerts and events than the Cox and Peake combined.

The Cox will be scraped when there are developers like Clayco who are ready to spend the big bucks on the property. But that probably won't happen for another 10 years or so.

[Motley]

It has been speculated that by the time the convention center is completed (or maybe 5 years after that), it will be time to replace Chesapeake. Could the Cox be demo'ed and build the new arena in that location? Then Chesapeake could be replaced with new developments.

[bchris02]

It has been speculated that by the time the convention center is completed (or maybe 5 years after that), it will be time to replace Chesapeake. Could the Cox be demo'ed and build the new arena in that location? Then Chesapeake could be replaced with new developments.

Really? I would think with the recent upgrades to the Peake that the city will be able to get several more years out of it. Many other cities have had their NBA arenas for much longer than OKC has had the Ford Center/Peake and they have no need for a new arena.

[Motley]

I read that on the Friday NewsOk blog a few weeks ago. Steve speculated (he commented that it would be controversial just to say it) that the Peake would need to be replaced in the not too distant future after the CC is finished. How old is the Peake now and when is the CC slated to open?

[warreng88]

I read that on the Friday NewsOk blog a few weeks ago. Steve speculated (he commented that it would be controversial just to say it) that the Peake would need to be replaced in the not too distant future after the CC is finished. How old is the Peake now and when is the CC slated to open?

The Peake opened in 2002 (known as the Ford Center then) and I think the new CC is set to break ground in 2016 with a 2019 opening. That would put the possible demo of the CCC at 2020 or so.

[Pete]

The convention center is supposed to start in the 2nd quarter of 2016 and be complete by early 2019.

[Motley]

So add 5-7 years for delays in the cc opening, demo, and new construction, and the Peake will be 25-ish years old at that time. Is that considered old for an arena?

[mobstam]

I mentioned this before a long time ago, but I've always thought that creating a mini LA Live complex would be awesome. Keep the arena and reconfigure/reconstruct it as a large concert venue ala the Nokia Theater. Get rid of the the convention meeting spaces (as it would be redundant with the new convention center) and build a hotel/residential tower(s) in its place along the periphery of the arena. Add in some street level restaurant/storefront space.

[warreng88]

I mentioned this before a long time ago, but I've always thought that creating a mini LA Live complex would be awesome. Keep the arena and reconfigure/reconstruct it as a large concert venue ala the Nokia Theater. Get rid of the the convention meeting spaces (as it would be redundant with the new convention center) and build a hotel/residential tower(s) in its place along the periphery of the arena. Add in some street level restaurant/storefront space.

So, you would basically keep the arena which is in the middle of the block and all the parking underneath (you would have to) and redevelop the area surrounding it. I wouldn't be opposed to that idea, but I don't know if it would work since the arena was built into the building and if you are taking down the rest of the building, where is the support going to come from? Obviously there is support below, the sides are probably supported by other parts of the building. It would be a large task for keeping the arena and then major upgrades to the interior would have to done as well. Not sure if it is worth it when the State Fairgrounds Arena is in about as good shape.

[mobstam]

So, you would basically keep the arena which is in the middle of the block and all the parking underneath (you would have to) and redevelop the area surrounding it. I wouldn't be opposed to that idea, but I don't know if it would work since the arena was built into the building and if you are taking down the rest of the building, where is the support going to come from? Obviously there is support below, the sides are probably supported by other parts of the building. It would be a large task for keeping the arena and then major upgrades to the interior would have to done as well. Not sure if it is worth it when the State Fairgrounds Arena is in about as good shape.

I don't know if it is even feasible from an architectural or engineering point of view.....I was just throwing out an idea. I hadn't even considered the parking garage, which I assume would probably be a big kink in the idea.

The pros, as I see it, would be that the area would become the defacto entertainment center of the metro (maybe even the state) as you would have a capable arena for big sporting events (Chesapeake), a renovated arena for major concerts, shows, etc. (renovated Myriad.....it will always be the Myriad to me, dammit), and a new convention center on the next block. Also have the MBG right next door. Throw in a new hotel and residences, restaurants, and bars, and the entire area would have the potential to be a hopping place. You could reserve a strip of land along the eastern part of the block to arrange for structured parking for the transit center across the street or to incorporate aspects of the transit center.

The drawbacks are that you wouldn't re-establish the grid in the area. The argument could also be made that another concert venue may not be needed with the presence of the Bricktown Events Center, possibly the Criterion, the Chesapeake Arena across the street, and, as you mentioned, the State Fairgrounds Arena.

Just food for thought. This is all above my pay grade anyway.

[bombermwc]

Once the new CC is open for business, almost all that activity will be shifted away from the Cox Center.

OKC does not need two arenas; the Staples Center hosts TWO NBA teams, a NHL team and has way more concerts and events than the Cox and Peake combined.

The Cox will be scraped when there are developers like Clayco who are ready to spend the big bucks on the property. But that probably won't happen for another 10 years or so.

This is just my opinion, but I would disagree with each of those points, but with points to discuss.

I still disagree that all business will be shifted over. The price different will negate that and hotels like the Renaissance that don't actually have meeting space, use the Cox as their meeting space...ie if you reserve meeting space at the Renaissance, you are actually getting Cox space.

The Staples comparison isn't a good one. Yes it hosts two NBA teams....but that's NBA, NHL, whatever top tier. The second tier and lower teams play at other arenas in the metro. Our tier 2 like the Dleague and our 2nd tier hockey can't afford the rent at the Peake. That's one of the reasons the blazers moved back to the Cox. Yes BBall was a factor, but the price of renting the current Peak is WAAAAY higher now than it was when the Blazers WERE the big tenant.

As others have said, the Peak is still serving its purpose and will continue to do so for some time, but we've also maxes out the lego brick additions to the place. There's only so much that can be done there to keep it high in stature. You'll have to convince the public that a MAJOR investment for a new maps program will pay for it though...but most people forget that it's 15 years old these days. Give it another 10-15 and it will be time to toss. By then the Cox will be more than ready to doze. A new arena will be built on the Cox site (again, the city already owns the prime land and being able to free up meeting space, could then develop countless things on the periphery of the block.....but the #1 thing will be to not be stuck with an awkward lot like the Peake is on that is out of room. With I-40 gone, the construction of the Peak would look very different.

[TheTravellers]

I'm not a sports guy, so don't know the ins and outs of stadiums (been to a few, but not many - Soldier Field, Wrigley Field, whatever the newer southside Chicago baseball one is that replaced Comiskey (I think), Key Arena, Brewers, Myriad, Peake... Why would the Peake be considered obsolete in a few (10?) years? And nothing could be done to modernize/update it rather than raze and start over?

[Pete]

This is just my opinion, but I would disagree with each of those points, but with points to discuss.

I still disagree that all business will be shifted over. The price different will negate that and hotels like the Renaissance that don't actually have meeting space, use the Cox as their meeting space...ie if you reserve meeting space at the Renaissance, you are actually getting Cox space.

The Staples comparison isn't a good one. Yes it hosts two NBA teams....but that's NBA, NHL, whatever top tier. The second tier and lower teams play at other arenas in the metro. Our tier 2 like the Dleague and our 2nd tier hockey can't afford the rent at the Peake. That's one of the reasons the blazers moved back to the Cox. Yes BBall was a factor, but the price of renting the current Peak is WAAAAY higher now than it was when the Blazers WERE the big tenant.

The Renaissance does have some meeting space (6 meeting rooms plus the atrium) and absolutely no reason they couldn't use the new CC or other meeting space downtown. They are not a convention hotel and they wouldn't be losing the Cox space, they would be gaining the new, better, bigger space in the new CC which could only help their business. Both Cox and the new CC are owned by the City, so whatever arrangement could easily transfer.

Regarding the Staples Center, in addition to the NBA and NHL franchises, they also rent out to arena football, the WNBA and an NBA d-league team.

I don't accept the assumption the only reason the Blazers play in the Cox Center is due to rent. I strongly suspect the City wants them to play there so that facility gets some use and so they can have more flexibility with the Peake. I'm sure if Cox were gone, the City would cut them a fair deal to move across the street. Otherwise, they could go back to the fairgrounds where they used to play.

[bombermwc]

Except the Renaissance is already doing what I described and has been for as long as they have been open. And they are connected to the Cox. They get absolutely nothing from the CC as far as meeting space goes because of it's distance. They would no longer be the "convention hotel" at that point.

And that's not accurate on the Blazers. The IHL team is the same way. Scheduling is a factor in those things as well. They're able to have simultaneous events at both facilities (and quite often do). The turnaround time becomes as much of a factor as the date itself. Unless you maintain 24/7 staff at the Peak to be able to turn ice/court/concert/etc around, you can't do it. Chicago is a good example of how the secondary arenas are in the burbs, and their sizes match the Cox....say the Allstate or whatever in Rosemont. Remember also that the Cox replaced the fairgrounds arena (where the Blazers originally played way back in the day). So an argument could be made that if we already had two, why didn't we toss the fairgrounds and build a new one there? All 3 get plenty use and are in no danger of running out of things to do. Lose one for "possible" development that doesn't really GET us anything, is just short-sighted to me. Why restore the grid? Where exactly are you going?....Gaylord? And from where? The Myriad Gardens? It doesn't help traffic flow, we aren't short on street level retail space in that area given what Santa Fe and others have to offer (but isn't fully utilized).

I don't want it to seem like I'm telling you you're wrong on things....it just seems like we'll have to agree to disagree on our views on this one....nothing wrong with that, just different opinions.

[catcherinthewry]

I'm with Pete on this one. What does the CC host other than hockey, Red Earth and the occasional graduation in the spring? And what does the Peake host other than basketball, a few concerts and other events like the circus? I'm sure there are plenty of events that I'm unaware of, but I truly doubt that there are so many that the Peake could not handle them all (and the cost of staff to handle them would be far less than the cost of keeping the CC open). As far as the rent for the Barons, I'm pretty sure the Thunder have a sweetheart deal so there is no reason not to give the Barons an affordable deal.

[traxx]

Great discussion. It's interesting to read the ideas of what others think should happen to that space.

I'm not sold on the idea of restoring the grid, but I think once the CC is built, there's got to be a better use for that space than the Cox. I haven't been in the old Myriad portion of the center in probably 10-15 years. But when i was there, it was run down and with the Peake being there, I don't think anyone is wanting to spend money to refurb the old portion of the Cox. If that holds true, then we are left with an aging arena that no one likes or wants to use unless they have to. I can see better uses for that block than an old run down arena and some meeting space.

As for the Rennaiissance, they may bill it as a convention center hotel but it isn't and never has been. It's a hotel with a sky bridge to the Cox. Once the new CC is built and if the Cox were demolished, it would still be a hotel. Which is what it is today. I see no detriment to the Rennaissance by demolishing the Cox and reusing the block for something else. Heck, whatever might be built in the Cox's place may be more of a boon to the hotel than the Cox is. Also, I don't see keeping the Cox just because one hotel has a sky bridge connected to it.