Streetcar

[Urban Pioneer]

Yes, the streetcars are on rail but they make bent (curved rail) that can make corner turn.

[betts]

I wasn't sure it it is workable, but if we used the Cotton Mill site as the convention center, I was wondering if you could somehow have the transit hub either attached or adjacent. It's very close to the intersection of north-south/east-west rail lines that we've got, and that would make a logical location for a hub, if the Santa Fe building is too small (not sure if that's the case or not)

[Urban Pioneer]

Bingo Betts! Logical possibility. The hub study will reflect the right choice. I would say though their mght be some resistence from the Convention Center folk if they think it will affect spending on square feet.

[MikeOKC]

Bingo Betts! Logical possibility. The hub study will reflect the right choice. I would say though their mght be some resistence from the Convention Center folk if they think it will affect spending on square feet.

I agree that Betts is on the right track. (Don't you love puns?)

I would also think instead of opposing something like that, the convention center people would think of it as a win/win kind of thing. It makes a lot of sense.

[hoya]

If we combined the convention center and the hub, couldn't we save costs and just make the single building larger?

[bdhumphreys]

Whoops, soonerguru beat me to it.

[Spartan]

Well you know they're going to try and have a full-blown food court in the convention center. That's a trend that convention centers today feature restaurants, much like how they're putting one or two inside the Ford Center.

What if we had the food court in the park instead? Convention goers would have to cross the street and walk 500 feet or so into the park and find vendors. Or better idea: Put the center across the boulevard from Bricktown. Bricktown would be your food court, and LB would see some infill...

[Spartan]

I agree on the amount of detail that goes into aesthetics at Disney. The problem though is that Disney is a term I and others have used to criticize Lower Bricktown and other new urbanist projects in other cities. Downtowns aren't supposed to be spotless and immaculate. They're supposed to be vibrant, gritty, lively, and busy.

[flintysooner]

I agree on the amount of detail that goes into aesthetics at Disney. The problem though is that Disney is a term I and others have used to criticize Lower Bricktown and other new urbanist projects in other cities. Downtowns aren't supposed to be spotless and immaculate. They're supposed to be vibrant, gritty, lively, and busy.

I do think that Disney's attention to detail is worth noting although I, too, dislike the make-believe feeling.

And details that can make an area really inviting and people oriented need not necessarily cost a fortune either.

[Larry OKC]

I do think that Disney's attention to detail is worth noting although I, too, dislike the make-believe feeling.

And details that can make an area really inviting and people oriented need not necessarily cost a fortune either.

Don't get me wrong, there are some drawbacks to the Disney approach (make believe, too anti-septic). Am am just saying no matter what you are talking about, be it Mass Trans, design of streets, walkways, lighting, buildings, and even something as mundane as a trash can, every thing "fits".

Unfortunately we will never know exactly how a planned City would have looked like Disney style. EPCOT was to be that realization but after Walt's death, the Company went another way and used the name to put on another theme park. EPCOT stood for Experimental Prototype Community Of Tomorrow. It was to be a fully planned functioning city. There was even a model of it at one point on display in Tomorrowland (think it was a part of the People Mover ride). If memory serves, it was a multiple spoke and wheel layout (as opposed to the typical grid).

I was a Disney fanatic as a kid and lived in the Disney World area during my high school/college days. Had season passes and practically lived there. Definitely spoiled when it comes to other theme parks as a result. When Disney builds a indoor mountain roller coaster attraction, they sent there designers half-way around the world to do research, then they built the thing 360 degrees. They didn't just take pictures and make sketches of what the native village at the base of the mountain looked like, but they purchased artifacts to use in the attraction. When Six Flags did it, they built a corrogated steel building to house the coaster and painted a mural on the side.

Am basically opposed to the way naming rights are currently done (selling rights to a building that they don't own). Disney has the corporate tie-in stuff down to a science. They have corporate sponsorhip all over the parks (they could easily pay for everything themselves, but offset costs through these deals). The primary difference between the way Disney does it and the way Naming Rights are sold, is the name of the attraction is decided by Disney, they just sell the sponsorship rights to it. No need to change the name of the ride every time a sponsor ship changes, just the sponsorship signage. For example, it wasn't Kodak's It's a Small World, it was It's a Small World sponsored by Kodak. Just think, how many different names has the Ballpark had now? 3 different names (same sponsor) but since the company kept changing it's name, the Ballpark's name kept changing too (most just call it "The Brick")

Mayor Cornett even expressed a similar thought back when he was a councilman and voted AGAINST the Ford naming rights. He stated he didn't have anything against Ford, he just thought the name of the Arena should be promoting Oklahoma City and not some corporation.

But to get back to the subject, there are a lot of lessons (good & bad) can be learned from looking Disney's way.

[PLANSIT]

Denver:



Source



Source

[Spartan]

See here's the thing: Other cities are making mistakes. Urban planning is not an exact science. It has not been completely revolutionized to the point where everyone all of a sudden realizes the mistakes and doesn't make them anymore. Mistakes are still going to be made. I strongly believe this is where Denver and San Diego have made a mistake.

San Diego's overall convention facility is a bit overkill in my opinion. It shadows over the vicinity and its architecture is so futuristic that it's almost not even tasteful. It sort of turns avant garde into holy crap guard your eyes.

[Kerry]

I think the Denver CC looks pretty cool.

[mugofbeer]

I think the Denver CC looks pretty cool.

It's extremely nice but more than OKC would be ready for I think. I just hope they have the forethought to build the new center in such a way it can be expanded later on if/when warranted. One of the really nice features of the Denver center is a 6000 seat theater in the round for more intimate concerts or lectures.

[Spartan]

The site is great from a pedestrian standpoint, as the front just comes right up to the street. It's just a minor flaw that the LRT going through the convention center means that pedestrians may not take advantage of the great pedestrian access.

[Larry OKC]

BTW

In the Denver pic above, what is the large (scale in comparison to the cars etc) shadowy figure (Bear?) just to the left of center that looks like it is leaning against the glass and peering in?

[kevinpate]

BTW

In the Denver pic above, what is the large (scale in comparison to the cars etc) shadowy figure (Bear?) just to the left of center that looks like it is leaning against the glass and peering in?

Big arse bear. Kinda kewl actually.

[Urban Pioneer]

Ah I see. I thought we were talking about transit. Lol. The only way this convention center won't end up being a big box and create vast walking distances of nothing is to "wrap" it with shops, stores, or housing. Let's use space wisely and give someone a reason to walk on the sidewalk in front of it.

[Spartan]

Ah I see. I thought we were talking about transit. Lol. The only way this convention center won't end up being a big box and create vast walking distances of nothing is to "wrap" it with shops, stores, or housing. Let's use space wisely and give someone a reason to walk on the sidewalk in front of it.

I agree with you. I think transit was a point I made but I didn't really mean it to detract from the overall theme I was just trying to convey. I still think that putting a streetcar route going through the center as opposed to on the streetfront, so as to draw the convention goers out, would be a mistake that could worsen the effect of a convention fortress..

[ljbab728]

I agree with you. I think transit was a point I made but I didn't really mean it to detract from the overall theme I was just trying to convey. I still think that putting a streetcar route going through the center as opposed to on the streetfront, so as to draw the convention goers out, would be a mistake that could worsen the effect of a convention fortress..

My opinion is that many people are overthinking this process. There is no one perfect desicion on the planning of the convention center. I have been to various convention centers around the country and I was never greatly influenced by any of the things being discussed as to what I would want to do after arriving as to seeing other parts of the area or how I would get there.

[flintysooner]

My opinion is that many people are overthinking this process. There is no one perfect desicion on the planning of the convention center. I have been to various convention centers around the country and I was never greatly influenced by any of the things being discussed as to what I would want to do after arriving as to seeing other parts of the area or how I would get there.

I haven't been to a convention in a long while so things may well be different now.

But I remember going to one in LA and being told by several people to wait on the buses to return us to our hotel rather than taking a taxi and for certain to not even think about walking which would have been pretty far.

A great contrast was one I attended just prior to that in Salt Lake City where I was able to just wander around the entire area around the center.

But as I look back over the time when I was attending conventions I am surprised by how few actually amount to much in my memory.

[fuzzytoad]

My opinion is that many people are overthinking this process. There is no one perfect desicion on the planning of the convention center. I have been to various convention centers around the country and I was never greatly influenced by any of the things being discussed as to what I would want to do after arriving as to seeing other parts of the area or how I would get there.

Agreed, I go to 10 a year and with the exception of any in Vegas, the general location around the convention had zero influence on my decisions to go or on my decisions on what to do recreationally while I was at a convention.

And yes, this includes 2 that happen right here in OKC, one usually at the Biltmore and the other at the Cox center.

[Kerry]

Agreed, I go to 10 a year and with the exception of any in Vegas, the general location around the convention had zero influence on my decisions to go or on my decisions on what to do recreationally while I was at a convention.

And yes, this includes 2 that happen right here in OKC, one usually at the Biltmore and the other at the Cox center.

You might think differently if your convention planner picked a real crappy place with nothing safe for you to do after 5PM.

http://www.genesisarena.com/
(don't let the picture on the web site fool you - it is in Gary, IN)

[Spartan]

My opinion is that many people are overthinking this process. There is no one perfect desicion on the planning of the convention center. I have been to various convention centers around the country and I was never greatly influenced by any of the things being discussed as to what I would want to do after arriving as to seeing other parts of the area or how I would get there.

I agree with this. From a convention goers perspective the specifics about the convention center don't matter nearly as much as they do to the locals who have to live around it. That's why ALL of the bells and whistles it gets need to be directed at the local community around it and NOT conventions. The reality is that conventions are not going to come to OKC specifically because we have this certain feature with our center and another center doesn't, or because the interior looks a certain way as opposed to the interior at the DLL Convention Center (Pittsburgh) or whatever.

The reality is that convention centers get up or down consideration, is it a nice center, or is it not a nice center. Period. Then they will consider the strategic advantages of the city, whether the center is adequate to host the event, and the most important thing they'll weigh is the proposal from the city to host the event. Whether the convention center has a streetcar stop in the middle of it, a food court in the heart of, just a real bona fide convention fortress, makes no difference whatsoever.

Convention goers adapt to whatever city they're in. A convention in God-awful Phoenix (although it's getting a LOT better and more urban there) is just the same as a convention in Minneapolis. You might enjoy the idea of being in Minneapolis a lot more (as long as it's summer), but still, you get the idea from a practical standpoint..

[Urban Pioneer]

I was at the streetcar conference in Fort Worth on Friday. Rick Cain, Larry Hopper, and myself went down there to represent the city. It was a very enjoyable event.

One of the most striking things I heard came from the former Mayor of Charlotte. He was talking about new schools that Charlotte had built and how he wished that the development of the light rail should have interefaced with the school in lieu of school buses.

I got to thinking about this. I guess older children use the subway in New York. It probably helps develop independence. It occurred to me that we still are two years off before we start on the downtown school. Why not consider interfacing it with the streetcar?