Lindsey Street

[Geographer]

Has anyone been able to find renderings of the new plans? I've been hunting around on the city website and the only thing I have found so far is this page with the outdated plan.

There was mention back on page two of this thread of a presentation, has that been posted anywhere?

I have not been able to get ahold of plans either. I do not think they are posted anywhere. You could email the city planners/engineers to see if they have digital copies.

[David]

I sent a few emails, to the City and to the Walkable and Livable Communities Institute. If I get anything I can share I will be sure to post.

[venture]

Center median gets thumbs up from city engineers » New and Developing » The Norman Transcript

City Engineers gave approval for the raised center median. However, they are against using any roundabouts due to...

Cty staff does not support roundabouts “due to traffic capacity concerns, scheduling delays, right-of-way requirements, possible loss of federal funding and additional project costs,” according to a report issued by city staff and SAIC this week.

Seems like a bunch of short sighted people in the engineer's office.

[ou48A]

So putting the Federal funding for the project at risk is “short sighted”. Whew, who knew!

[venture]

So putting the Federal funding for the project at risk is “short sighted”. Whew, who knew!

I'm sure they are more than capable of making the needed changes to ensure the federal funding isn't impacted. I would figure people would be more interested in getting it right instead of only going half way. I would like the know the specifics on what would threaten federal funding. I have a feeling it is more to do with a timeline issue and not with the feature issue of the project.

[Geographer]

This is exactly what I feared. The city is going to half ass the project and it won't turn out like it should. Trust me, federal funding isn't the issue. City engineers hate that their design has been undermined. The center median won't work without the proper roundabouts and vice versa. This is unfortunate. I hope City Council doesn't listen to the engineers.

I'm quite disappointed.

[HangryHippo]

This is exactly what I feared. The city is going to half ass the project and it won't turn out like it should. Trust me, federal funding isn't the issue. City engineers hate that their design has been undermined. The center median won't work without the proper roundabouts and vice versa. This is unfortunate. I hope City Council doesn't listen to the engineers.

I'm quite disappointed.

I have no doubt the city engineers in Norman hate that their work was questioned. Why do you feel the center median won't work without the proper roundabouts? Why do you feel this project is being half-assed just because roundabouts aren't included?

I'm not trying to be confrontational, I'm just curious what your reasoning is.

[Just the facts]

Actually, the federal government has a mandate to support roundabouts - so whomever wrote that part as a concern is full of crap - and I suspect, totally made it up.

Roundabouts - FHWA Safety Program

Proven Safety Countermeasures | Federal Highway Administration

Guidance

Roundabouts should be considered as an alternative for intersections on federally funded highway projects that involve new construction or reconstruction. Roundabouts should also be considered when rehabilitating existing intersections that have been identified as needing major safety or operational improvements. Roundabouts have also proven to be effective at freeway interchange ramp terminals and at rural high-speed intersections.

[venture]

Thanks for the info Kerry. So I think what we are finding out is what Geo hinted at. The Norman engineers are hurt so they are going to half ass it all. I've already emailed my council person and invite everyone to do the same. We need to make sure Council goes with the right option not the half assed option.

[venture]

I got some clarification on the scheduling concerns and they are nothing new. They need to get the plan finalized and things in motion to align with the I-35 reconstruction. We already knew that though.

[Just the facts]

For far too long the engineers were allowed to operate unopposed. Now with community activist involved they can't keep up the B.S., and that is going to be a hard adjustment for some of them.

[Geographer]

I have no doubt the city engineers in Norman hate that their work was questioned. Why do you feel the center median won't work without the proper roundabouts? Why do you feel this project is being half-assed just because roundabouts aren't included?

I'm not trying to be confrontational, I'm just curious what your reasoning is.

Here is what I mean:

If they go ahead use the central median that Dan's team proposed, it has no left turn lanes. In this scenario, you NEED roundabouts at intersections so that people can easily turn around. If there are no left turn lanes inbetween intersections and the only option is to make a U-turn at the nearest stoplight, then that's a problem. If they go what they've originally proposed in terms of a central median, then you will see something similar to what exists on Main Street today between the Interstate and east for a mile or so, where you have a useless central median that still has left turn lanes. I don't want them to take just part of Dan's proposal because if only part of it is taken then it won't work at all. I don't like to be the "all or nothing" kind of guy, but in this case we really have to go for it or completely abandon the new design. I hope that makes sense.

[Just the facts]

I am the all or nothing type. If I thought that 1/2 an idea would work I would just make that the whole idea.

[CaptDave]

Thanks for the info Kerry. So I think what we are finding out is what Geo hinted at. The Norman engineers are hurt so they are going to half ass it all. I've already emailed my council person and invite everyone to do the same. We need to make sure Council goes with the right option not the half assed option.

That is very similar to the OKC Boulevard situation. It has taken going over the city and ODOT directly to the Federal Highway Administration to force them to evaluate anything other than their pet design. One of the best tools citizens have available is NEPA which requires ALL alternaitves to be evaluated when federal funds are used. NEPA requires economic and social effects of the project be considered in the alternative analysis. The social effects can be used to great effect in certain situations and it sounds like the Lindsey project might be one.

[BoulderSooner]

Roundabouts on this round are a bad idea

[venture]

Roundabouts on this round are a bad idea

Why would you say that? And please...utilize more than just a single line in your response as to why. I know you can do it!

[venture]

Another story today: City engineers give median thumbs up » Headlines » The Norman Transcript

Pretty much hitting on that everything but the roundabouts is going through. The City Engineers and SAIC are against the roundabouts. Councilman Kovach seems to be as well. I just have to sit back and wonder how much better traffic will be with an additional lane each way but still traffic lights. Roundabouts help to manage the flow of traffic, which would be important going passed Berry. I would think at the very least that would be the intersection to focus on getting the roundabout put in.

If they are worried about land acquisition there you have the now closed Texadelphia, a doctors office I think, the Circle K, and then a grass lot next to the other service station. Wylie you are looking at mostly parking lots to replace. Murphy you have the same.

At the end of the day what is going to be more of an obstruction to traffic - people making a U-Turn/left turn - at a cut in the median with no left turning lane or a roundabout. Also how many cuts are they going to do in the median to where it is almost pointless? Maybe that is the end goal.

[Just the facts]

Seems like it works with high volume to me...

[CaptDave]

I learned a bit about roundabouts during the OKC Blvd discussions. I changed my mind about having the huge roundabout on the boulevard because that wasn't the best design. Llindsey seems to be an excellent candidate for roundabouts though. It is unfortunate OK traffic engineers have to be dragged into this century kicking and screaming. The USFHWA has endorsed incorporating roundabouts when appropriate and might even be a potential source of additional funding. The safety benefits of roundabouts are pretty intuitive as well. I hope you guys in Norman can at least force the city traffic department to objectively evaluate incorporating them. You will probably have to leverage the feds vs. local to do so however.

[Geographer]

I just sent an email to my councilmember, Greg Heipel, and he agrees with me "100%" on using the Dan Burden design....so there's at least 2 councilmembers that I know of that are in favor. I am sure a couple others are as well.

[Plutonic Panda]

This is exactly what I feared. The city is going to half ass the project and it won't turn out like it should. Trust me, federal funding isn't the issue. City engineers hate that their design has been undermined. The center median won't work without the proper roundabouts and vice versa. This is unfortunate. I hope City Council doesn't listen to the engineers.

I'm quite disappointed.

I don't think half ass is the correct term. They just didn't build it as pedestrian and bike friendly as you and others had hoped for and that's that.

I don't live there and it really isn't my place to say what should go there, so I won't say anything on that matter. Is this the final plan?

[catch22]

And engineers and the automobile win again. This state can be so backwards all the time.

[BoulderSooner]

i wonder if any of you have driven down a road with traffic circles only .. with 10x+ normal traffic does parking lot mean anything to you ..

[venture]

I just sent an email to my councilmember, Greg Heipel, and he agrees with me "100%" on using the Dan Burden design....so there's at least 2 councilmembers that I know of that are in favor. I am sure a couple others are as well.

Kovach is probably going to be the big one to convince. He has to be careful. He is up for elimination in the next round of elections. The work is taking place in Kovach's ward as well, since his ends right at Berry. Holman I think would have a vested interest in this because it will impact his ward directly (his starts at Berry and goes through campus). He is also on the transportation committee.

[venture]

i wonder if any of you have driven down a road with traffic circles only .. with 10x+ normal traffic does parking lot mean anything to you ..

I have and haven't had that experience. What evidence do you have to show it would be nothing but a parking lot? You also still haven't replied to my last post. Please enlighten us on why you are so against roundabouts?