Convention Center

[PhiAlpha]

I'm kind of annoyed with the new boulevard-front parking lot. But I guess it's not permanent.

At least it provides the opportunity along the boulevard for retail or another use that would contribute to street life eventually. Though it begs the questions, would you rather that retail front the Boulevard or MBG?

[Pete]

I'm kind of annoyed with the new boulevard-front parking lot. But I guess it's not permanent.

The recommended longer term plan is for a parking structure at that location, hopefully with commercial at street level:

[bchris02]

At least it provides the opportunity along the boulevard for retail or another use that would contribute to street life eventually. Though it begs the questions, would you rather that retail front the Boulevard or MBG?

Personally, I feel urban design and pedestrian friendliness is more important fronting Reno and MBG than the new Boulevard. Not that it isn't important on the Boulevard side, but Reno is an opportunity for an awesome pedestrian-friendly corridor designed with downtown's best interests in mind rather than commuters from the burbs.

[Laramie]

The recommended longer term plan is for a parking structure at that location, hopefully with commercial at street level:

The convention center hotel site (5) will be within close proximity to the Chesapeake Energy Arena. Thought: Will the visiting teams stay there or continue their experience at the Skirvin?

[HOT ROD]

Thanks for that data Pete. I assume it was available and if so I apologize if anyone was offended by my post.

Im in favor of having a big new convention center and totally agree with Laramie that it is the outside face of Oklahoma City. I just thought or at least it feels as if this is being developed behind closed doors and at the expense of other projects which have been cut. That seems shady to me, particularly when the cc was the least popular project.

Here's another question. There is an existing revenue stream that the chamber and cvb have at their disposal which likely is being used for the fairgrounds. Couldn't the hotel/motel tax also go towards the cc and/or the cc hotel(s)?

And while I'm asking this question, why is it that all MAPS always have a fairgrounds element, when it has a permanent funding source, is already existing/generating its own income, and does not directly add to the viable environment of the urban area nor its own neighborhood? Seems like the fairgrounds is a pork element that constantly shows up for MAPS, at the expense of NEW THINGS that OKC direly needs like the park, streetcar, even the NEW cc. None of these NEW elements have a funding source (well, cc sort of does), to me that would be like the zoo showing up for a piece of MAPS, or the police department.

Will we see an end to the pork in future MAPS and allow new and expanded projects to get full funding? Think if the sidewalks, lighting, and trails were fully funded. That alone would make a HUGE impact to OKC, that would feed expanded transit, beautification, and public safety and cost less than the pork that went to the fairgrounds (which tore down viable buildings/revenue sources so they could show up begging for MAPS).

People keep saying the fairgrounds has horse shows and this is big for OKC. Well, doesn't that generate money for the fairgrounds? Shouldn't that go to capital expenditure? They also likely enjoy all of the hotel/motel tax. So why do they ALSO need every MAPS?

[Laramie]

Completion in 2016 of the county's $260 million, 600-room Hilton

Cleveland's new convention hotel could bring life to the Mall and connect a disconnected downtown | cleveland.com

Currently, the Trade Shows & Rodeos at the fairgrounds are among our most productive instruments of pumping 'out-of-state' money into our local economy. We understand all of that.

However,
You would think that since MAPS has built a number of facilities on the fairgrounds; they (Fair Board) would have a 'nest egg' of funds to spend on upgrades at Fair Park. Why haven't they built something iconic like a new Space Tower or Monorail.

Relics (Space Tower, monorail leftovers) are fine to have as 'conversation pieces.'

Come on, FAIR BOARD--it's time to build something...

[HOT ROD]

my point exactly Laramie. I'd be in favor of more $ to the convention center to do it right if we didn't have to keep sending money to an already funded source like the fairgrounds. If they're already getting shows and already the largest horse market or whatever, then they should have revenues to start funding themselves without MAPS.

[Bellaboo]

The convention center hotel site (5) will be within close proximity to the Chesapeake Energy Arena. Thought: Will the visiting teams stay there or continue their experience at the Skirvin?

I doubt the convention center hotel would host NBA teams. Currently, teams stay at the Skirvin, Colcord and Renaissance.

[kevinpate]

... ... to me that would be like the zoo showing up for a piece of MAPS, or the police department. ...

Not aware of the zoo ever showing up, but hasn't public safety actually received a fair (no pun intended) sum of the use taxes that get generated as a result of MAPs?

[krisb]

I think the convention center project is less about conventions and more about inflating property values downtown through massive capital investment. Plus a bit of civic vanity.

[bchris02]

I think the convention center project is less about conventions and more about inflating property values downtown through massive capital investment. Plus a bit of civic vanity.

I disagree. When you compare the Cox Center to other convention centers in cities the size of OKC it comes in way, way subpar. This convention center will enable OKC to compete with peer cities for conventions and raise the city's national exposure in the business world. The thing about the convention center is its benefits are intangible, but they are no less real.

[bradh]

If that's the case (and that's like, just your opinion man ), then stronger downtown property values should have a ripple effect on surrounding areas close to downtown and on outward in terms of increasing their property values as well. I firmly believe in what the mayor has always said that a city is only as strong as it's downtown.

[PhiAlpha]

I think the convention center project is less about conventions and more about inflating property values downtown through massive capital investment. Plus a bit of civic vanity.

You've been drinking the Ed Koolaid too long. Have you ever been to a convention in another city? Have you ever actually had a chance to compare our current facility against others in other cities? If the answer to either of those is yes, I don't know how you don't think we need a new and larger one. I'm not crazy about using additional funds to further increase the size, but I think the expansion is necessary.

Also, if you've actually followed development downtown and paid attention to property values, you would realize that a new convention center is not needed to increase them.

[dcsooner]

Ive seen the JW Marriott in Indy and it isn't very appealing. Just a big wide blue box.

Agree, and it's location is a bit odd, kind of away from the CBD a bit

[warreng88]

You've been drinking the Ed Koolaid too long. Have you ever been to a convention in another city? Have you ever actually had a chance to compare our current facility against others in other cities? If the answer to either of those is yes, I don't know how you don't think we need a new and larger one. I'm not crazy about using additional funds to further increase the size, but I think the expansion is necessary.

Also, if you've actually followed development downtown and paid attention to property values, you would realize that a new convention center is not needed to increase them.

Took the words right out of my mouth. Anyone thinking this is just a way to line "corporate interests'/rich individuals pockets" obviously hasn't been to our convention center or to a convention in another city with a better convention center.

[Laramie]

I disagree. When you compare the Cox Center to other convention centers in cities the size of OKC it comes in way, way subpar. This convention center will enable OKC to compete with peer cities for conventions and raise the city's national exposure in the business world. The thing about the convention center is its benefits are intangible, but they are no less real.

'...way, way subpar.' Chris, you a generous with your free speech.

The Cox Convention Center is the PITS.

Oklahoma City will need to invest as much into the convention center as possible. Again, this was the least popular of the MAPS 3 projects; however, many cities have ungraded or continue to build new convention center complexes.

The key to the success of the convention center complex will be the hotel piece. Conventioneers prefer cities who can accommodate all of their convention participants on one site. So, we will need a hotel with no less than 600 rooms; preferably in the 700-1,000 range if we want to attract those prime conventions that pull a lot of 'out-of-state' occupancy.

[Bellaboo]

You've been drinking the Ed Koolaid too long. Have you ever been to a convention in another city? Have you ever actually had a chance to compare our current facility against others in other cities? If the answer to either of those is yes, I don't know how you don't think we need a new and larger one. I'm not crazy about using additional funds to further increase the size, but I think the expansion is necessary.

Also, if you've actually followed development downtown and paid attention to property values, you would realize that a new convention center is not needed to increase them.

Plus 100.

[hoya]

I understand the hesitation with adding the extra $30 million to the convention center. Personally I'm not opposed to it. I wouldn't be opposed if they added the money to any of the projects. I think the streetcar, the park, the convention center, the sidewalks, the white water course, the old folks activity centers, etc., could all use more money. I think the convention center is worthy of the money, but so are the others. These are all desperately needed projects.

[HOT ROD]

I agree. I wish we didn't have to cut back other projects only to send more money to the cc. That to me is the ONLY sticking point.

Im all in favor of a new cc and think it should be as modern and big as possible since we're doing it (go big or go home). But it just feels weird that other projects are being downsized while we're going gung-ho on this one (which has to be underground and this and that). And we have the fairgrounds constantly asking for MAPS (despite having dedicated revenue streams and events). Just feels weird, that's all. ....

Anyway - let's do it and I agree about the 1000 room hotel. Let's go big with the CC. I think it will pay dividends in the long run and we can add to transit in the next Maps and revisit some of the projects that didn't succeed this time.

[Spartan]

Excellent decision.

Sarcasm?

[Laramie]

I agree. I wish we didn't have to cut back other projects only to send more money to the cc. That to me is the ONLY sticking point.

I'm all in favor of a new cc and think it should be as modern and big as possible since we're doing it (go big or go home). But it just feels weird that other projects are being downsized while we're going gung-ho on this one (which has to be underground and this and that). And we have the fairgrounds constantly asking for MAPS (despite having dedicated revenue streams and events). Just feels weird, that's all. ....

Anyway - let's do it and I agree about the 1000 room hotel. Let's go big with the CC. I think it will pay dividends in the long run and we can add to transit in the next Maps and revisit some of the projects that didn't succeed this time.

Definitely need to go big on the hotel; without an anchor hotel in the complex--the convention center can't maximize its full potential. Is there any reason why two 350-400 room hotels couldn't occupy the convention center complex (example: Marriott and Hilton brand) ?

Can we compete with Tulsa?

...go big or go home.-- Originally Posted by HOT ROD

Let's hope this is the last time they put anything into the Fairgrounds coffers.

[krisb]

You've been drinking the Ed Koolaid too long. Have you ever been to a convention in another city? Have you ever actually had a chance to compare our current facility against others in other cities? If the answer to either of those is yes, I don't know how you don't think we need a new and larger one. I'm not crazy about using additional funds to further increase the size, but I think the expansion is necessary.

Also, if you've actually followed development downtown and paid attention to property values, you would realize that a new convention center is not needed to increase them.

If downtown property values are self-sustaining then a new convention center hotel will NOT need a public subsidy.

I have been to many convention centers in other cities and have found that the facilities are not the major attraction, but the city itself. The data suggests they are not a good return on investment, especially for taxpayers. As the Populus study suggested, Oklahoma City has some serious challenges which inhibit convention center bookings...lack of direct flights, bad weather, lack of public transit from the airport which a new convention center will not fix. It is reasonable to say we need a bigger facility, but let's be honest about the projected earnings, how much it will cost taxpayers, and the reality of the market conditions.

[HOT ROD]

hehe, Laramie!

I totally agree about the two convention hotel idea. it may be easier for the OKC market to handle AND give the city two flags with both at the cc. One brand could be higher end, say JW Marriott with 400 rooms. While the other brand could be more mainstream/cc oriented like Omni or Hyatt at 600+ rooms. In this case, OKC would be getting two brand new flags, both higher end than any existing flag in the state, and both at the convention center.

having two would allow the city to promote two properties/price points; I'd think thereby expanding the reach of the cc enabling it to handle multiple event nights. As I said, go big!

[boitoirich]

I have been to many convention centers in other cities and have found that the facilities are not the major attraction, but the city itself. The data suggests they are not a good return on investment, especially for taxpayers. As the Populus study suggested, Oklahoma City has some serious challenges which inhibit convention center bookings...lack of direct flights, bad weather, lack of public transit from the airport which a new convention center will not fix. It is reasonable to say we need a bigger facility, but let's be honest about the projected earnings, how much it will cost taxpayers, and the reality of the market conditions.

This whole CC/hotel discussion would sit a lot easier with me if there were more openness, better care of public input throughout the MAPS process, and more accountability in place (Pete is looking at projections, budget changes, contingencies, etc.). For example, what's wrong with civic leaders being straight up and saying, "We want a very nice facility with which to host meetings?" That honesty, while a bit naked for some tastes, would still be acceptable because people would not feel taken in by hidden or adverse studies.

[HOT ROD]

here here. be honest about wanting to go big on this. People would be more willing to accept imo than undercutting and sliding dollars acting like the public is ignorant. ./..

OKC needs a new cc and needs one that is modern and can compete against other tier 2 markets. So, say so and be honest about it. Transparency is the key to good government. There was no need to underfund projects while overfunding one venue and sliding dollars to another.