OG&E Energy Center

[Pete]

Pete, this is where your perspective is weighted toward living in So Cal and OKC. Linking building and demo permits is common practice for urban cities..

I was asking for specific examples that OKC might follow.

[Spartan]

The example I work with every day is in Cleveland, where you can't get a building permit in a historic district (basically the entire city), without first obtaining a "certificate of appropriateness." It's not a de jure linked demo and bldg permit, but it applies to both, and they have a long-standing precedent of not approving demo's on commercial corridors without first seeing the replacement.

"Certificate of appropriateness" sounds absurd but that's a strong mechanism that a lot of cities can legally use to raise the bar in the bldg permitting process. You don't have to let anyone build anything, contrary to popular opinion passing for legal expertise on OKC Talk. You just have to follow your own rules.

Here is the legal framework regarding planning in Oklahoma:
http://oklahomamunicipalleague.webs....%209%2014.ppsx

[Pete]

^

Okay, but since we already had plans of what was to replace Stage Center, the point is that there is no way to force someone to build anything or not change the original plans when the inevitable cost over-runs cause all types of adjustments.

In fact, it's not uncommon for projects under construction to make changes right in the middle. It happens to virtually all of them to a greater or lesser extent.


We already have a design review process of appropriateness. The point is that it's almost impossible to force a private property owner to build something whether demolition is involved or not.

[Just the facts]

We already have a design review process of appropriateness. The point is that it's almost impossible to force a private property owner to build something whether demolition is involved or not.

Under the hybrid plan discussed above no one is being forced to build anything. A developer buys a piece of property, gets a building permit, tears down whatever existing structure in in place, and builds their project. With this plan there is zero incentive to seek a quick demolition since all they have to do is get their building permit. It take a lot of variables and obstacles off the table. In cases like this project where public announcement to building permit is now being measured in years (and isn't going to happen in any way that resembles the grand plan) Stage Center would still be standing. If they got their building permit, tore down Stage Center, and THEN their plan fell apart - the 'no build' penalty kicks in (which would vary by project). The only thing anyone is being forced to do is live up to their plans or pay the price. That doesn't seem like it is asking too much.

[bchris02]

From Steve's chat this morning.

Mark: Steve, I hate to bring up the bad sides of OKC's past, but are you concerned that the City and Clayco might realize that they will never come to a TIF agreement and the whole thing falls apart and we are left with Lake Lackmeyer for another 20 years?

Steve Lackmeyer: Can I promise this isn't a risk right now? No. And the prospect of the Stage Center site staying as it is should concern everybody who cares about downtown.

Of course this is a worst case scenario but the fact that it is even a risk right now is very concerning and highlights the need for linking building and demo permits. Pete, how real do you think the risk is of Clayco just walking away completely and building nothing?

[dcsooner]

Vintage OKC. promse big and deliver little to nothing. You can say I am negative nellie, but my comment is supported by history. People in OKC should stop falling for these grandiose promises that far to often disappoint.

[betts]

If this happens, I hate to say "I told you so", but we are stupid, stupid, stupid to allow demolition before they are ready to break ground. We can always pave it though.....don't we need more surface parking downtown?

[jccouger]

Betts, Catcher & I all tried to warn everybody.

[Pete]

I'm sure the OG&E building and garage will be built in some form.

The rest has always been pretty iffy.

But, the south parcel is owned by the City and can easily put out as an RFP and if they give people plenty of time to respond and don't have to compete against someone who already had a plan fully formed, then I'm sure they would get plenty of great proposals.

Of course, that land still may end up being part of the convention center, but we should know more about that by the end of the month.

[Just the facts]

Didn't the CEO, President, or Chairman of the Board (foeget which) at OGE just leave to become the new CEO at Enable? Wonder if that might change things.

[Teo9969]

Didn't the CEO, President, or Chairman of the Board (foeget which) at OGE just leave to become the new CEO at Enable? Wonder if that might change things.

Pete Delaney. He's probably just the CEO of both right now.

[Just the facts]

Pete Delaney. He's probably just the CEO of both right now.

Delaney resigned from OGE on Thursday of last week.

[hfry]

JTF OGE Energy names Sean Trauschke as CEO; Enable Midstream CEO resigns | News OK he didn't resign but announced he was retiring in a year or so.

[Just the facts]

He was supposed to retire in 2016. My understanding is that the CEO of Enable was effectivly forced out on Monday, the transition process at OGE was already underway so last Thursday Delaney ressigned and took the job Monday at Enable.

My only reason for brining it was if the new CEO also wants to relocate the company.

[Shooter McGavin]

He was supposed to retire in 2016. My understanding is that the CEO of Enable was effectivly forced out on Monday, the transition process at OGE was already underway so last Thursday Delaney ressigned and took the job Monday at Enable.

My only reason for brining it was if the new CEO also wants to relocate the company.

Since Pete is retaining his position of Chairman of the Board for OGE I dont think you will see an major differences in the operation of the company.

[Just the facts]

Since Pete is retaining his position of Chairman of the Board for OGE I dont think you will see an major differences in the operation of the company.

Good point.

[Spartan]

^

Okay, but since we already had plans of what was to replace Stage Center, the point is that there is no way to force someone to build anything or not change the original plans when the inevitable cost over-runs cause all types of adjustments.

In fact, it's not uncommon for projects under construction to make changes right in the middle. It happens to virtually all of them to a greater or lesser extent.


We already have a design review process of appropriateness. The point is that it's almost impossible to force a private property owner to build something whether demolition is involved or not.

What do you not get? If the commission doesn't like the plans, they don't grant the certificate of appropriateness. They don't physically force the developer to pick up a shovel and hammer but what more can you do?

You are becoming the Tea Party of urban design rights... communities often exercise their right to have design review control. OKC is not one of these communities.

[Pete]

You are becoming the Tea Party of urban design rights... communities often exercise their right to have design review control. OKC is not one of these communities.

Tone it down.

Furthermore, you don't seem to be following my points.

I'm not saying that a demo permit and design approval shouldn't be wed, I'm saying it wouldn't make a darn bit of difference in solving the 'problem' that was put forth for this idea to resolve: That either nothing gets built on this site for quite some time or what does get built will be significantly different from what was proposed.

And you clearly aren't following the points I made in other threads if you think I am against more design control or tighter restrictions on demolitions.

[soonerwilliam]

Could someone post or repost the drawing comparing the heights of the new proposed buildings and the buildings that are already downtown. I can't seem to find where it was posted before.

[Spartan]

Tone it down.

Furthermore, you don't seem to be following my points.

I'm not saying that a demo permit and design approval shouldn't be wed, I'm saying it wouldn't make a darn bit of difference in solving the 'problem' that was put forth for this idea to resolve: That either nothing gets built on this site for quite some time or what does get built will be significantly different from what was proposed.

And you clearly aren't following the points I made in other threads if you think I am against more design control or tighter restrictions on demolitions.

Well I apologize if I misunderstood your position to be something against design review controls. My frustration stems from discerning that on one hand out existing ordinances aren't good enough (this is what we say when a development is going through the process), and on the o ther hand that any potential improvements aren't feasible (when we talk about changes to the process).

It's damned if you do damned if you don't.

[Teo9969]

Could someone post or repost the drawing comparing the heights of the new proposed buildings and the buildings that are already downtown. I can't seem to find where it was posted before.

OG&E Energy Center - OKCTalk

[Just the facts]

I agree Spartan. We seem to be caught in our own progress trap where the current process isn't producing the desired outcome but there is no political will to change it because doing so might prevent something from being built. Never mind that what doesn't get built falls in the undesirable bucket anyhow.

[soonerwilliam]

Thanks Teo9969 but that's not the drawing or chart I was looking for. I know it was in the newspaper and I thought maybe someone posted on OKC Talk awhile back. Hopefully somebody can find it. Thanks again.

[Spartan]

I agree Spartan. We seem to be caught in our own progress trap where the current process isn't producing the desired outcome but there is no political will to change it because doing so might prevent something from being built. Never mind that what doesn't get built falls in the undesirable bucket anyhow.

We need urban design standards that lift everyone up, rather than break everything down. There's a line to walk there.

[UnFrSaKn]

I still have this saved in a tab on my phone.