Lake Hefner at record low water levels, when will city buy Canton water?

[AP]

^Wow

[HangryHippo]

So, basically, you are asking/requesting that people that have worked hard and achieved enough in life to have a pool at their home, to not fill the pool and use it. That sounds like communistic thinking. And you expect people to take you seriously? You must be a communist. That has already been tried in eastern Europe. Didn't work.

JTF won't be the one not taken seriously.

[bradh]

someone obviously doesn't read many of JTF's posts. He's read a lot of books, and all his ideas would in his views solve the world's problems (just ask him).

Lesson here, understand the source.

[Just the facts]

It was a simple question based on a simple premise. The whole idea behind the rate increase is to price people out of the water market so that overall consumption is reduced. Stickman said he wasn't happy about paying more but was going to do it anyhow. I am simply curious how much water would have to cost before it priced him out of the market.

[bradh]

It was a simple question based on a simple premise. The whole idea behind the rate increase is to price people out of the water market so that overall consumption is reduced. Stickman said he wasn't happy about paying more but was going to do it anyhow. I am simply curious how much water would have to cost before it priced him out of the market.

I'm guessing for most that dropped $20k or more on a pool, the threshold might be pretty high, but who knows.

How much chlorine would it take to treat household gray water to fill a pool?

[Just the facts]

He could always fill it with rain water. Just route the house gutters to the pool. If I planned on ever building a house again I would put in a cistern.

[Swake]

This dumb, Oklahoma City is far from an arid city that has to monitor water and pay residents to pull out grass. The problem here isn't a lack of water, it's that Oklahoma City, a city that averages 36 inches of rain a year, is for some insane reason is getting water from northwestern Oklahoma, a semi-arid area that gets less than 20 inches on average a year. Oklahoma City, even in drought, gets plenty of rain for it's water needs if it were to get it locally or from eastern Oklahoma that gets even more rain.

Tulsa gets it's water basically locally in eastern Oklahoma and has no shortage and has only rationed water ever due to water treatment capacity, never due to an actual lack of water.

[Swake]

ignore, duplicate message

[Snowman]

This dumb, Oklahoma City is far from an arid city that has to monitor water and pay residents to pull out grass. The problem here isn't a lack of water, it's that Oklahoma City, a city that averages 36 inches of rain a year, is for some insane reason is getting water from northwestern Oklahoma, a semi-arid area that gets less than 20 inches on average a year. Oklahoma City, even in drought, gets plenty of rain for it's water needs if it were to get it locally or from eastern Oklahoma that gets even more rain.

Tulsa gets it's water basically locally in eastern Oklahoma and has no shortage and has only rationed water ever due to water treatment capacity, never due to an actual lack of water.

What are you doing bring average weather statistics to this conversation, clearly this is about taking things to (or past) logical extremes for a worst case senerio

[Teo9969]

So, basically, you are asking/requesting that people that have worked hard and achieved enough in life to have a pool at their home, to not fill the pool and use it. That sounds like communistic thinking. And you expect people to take you seriously? You must be a communist. That has already been tried in eastern Europe. Didn't work.

He's not asking that they not fill the pool and use it. He's asking that they pay a fair price to use it. So the question is, what is fair?

Do you think it would be fair for Harold Hamm to install 100 Fire Hydrants on a variety of properties throughout NW OKC, open them all up at the same time, and run them until it drained Lake Hefner dry for what would cost him less than one of his $10B+ net worth? Is there any price you would deem acceptable for Harold Hamm to do that?

If your answer to that is anything other than "Hell No" then your brand of capitalism is far less moral than any brand of communism that has ever graced the face of this earth.

[td25er]

Death to all people with yards and swimming pools. Evil, evil, evil.

[Stickman]

I have a pool = I must be the devil (Republican)



guess what ?
Your right, I also smoke cigars and drink scotch ha ha

[HangryHippo]

What are you doing bring average weather statistics to this conversation, clearly this is about taking things to (or past) logical extremes for a worst case senerio

haha, RIGHT?!? Why would we ever plan for a worst case scenario with something as precious as water?! And let's be sure to use average weather statistics when there's an increasing body of evidence that the averages are shifting due to new extremes! That's so smart! lulz.

[HangryHippo]

This dumb, Oklahoma City is far from an arid city that has to monitor water and pay residents to pull out grass. The problem here isn't a lack of water, it's that Oklahoma City, a city that averages 36 inches of rain a year, is for some insane reason is getting water from northwestern Oklahoma, a semi-arid area that gets less than 20 inches on average a year. Oklahoma City, even in drought, gets plenty of rain for it's water needs if it were to get it locally or from eastern Oklahoma that gets even more rain.

Tulsa gets it's water basically locally in eastern Oklahoma and has no shortage and has only rationed water ever due to water treatment capacity, never due to an actual lack of water.

If it was suggested anywhere that residents pull out their grass, I missed it. And the problem IS a lack of water. You point it out yourself in your post. If OKC wasn't suffering from a lack of water, why in the hell would we even be talking about where we're going to get more of it from?

You do bring up a valid point about why OKC is pulling water from a more arid region, which is beyond dumb, but even some of the lakes in the eastern part of the state weren't (and some still aren't) full until the recent rains.

[Dubya61]

I'm consistently amazed by some of the attitudes. You'd have to have your head in the sand to not notice that there are parts of the state (and country) that are experiencing a water shortage. Further, it would be rather sophomoric to believe that, just because my little block of the world isn't experiencing a shortage of any sort, that'll never change. Also, I am somewhat baffled by the idea that even if there is a problem, some have faith in science and technology ... of the future -- something like "I'm not worried because we'll soon have developed technology that will make water much cleaner/more usable/plentiful. Maybe not yet, but soon." Finally, I'm amazed by the ability to ignore the fact that things that happen to the Ogallala Aquifer are totally independent of anything that happens above the ground external to the Ogallala Aquifer -- that somehow they recharge magically and only based on rain in the immediate vicinity of the aquifer or that they will never be drained for uses distant from the aquifer.
Oh, well, consider me puzzled, then.
Personally, I believe that there IS a problem (everywhere). I'm thinking that the solution falls into determining that water is a precious mineral resource and people (and business entities, including agriculture and oil companies) will pay for it according to their use. I also hope that as the ocean levels rise the cost for desalination and transportation fall and we can pump potable (or at least clean) water back to the depleted aquifers, but I'm not just sticking my head in the sand and waiting for the desalination fairy to wave his or her magic wand!

[Stickman]

If it was suggested anywhere that residents pull out their grass, I missed it. And the problem IS a lack of water. You point it out yourself in your post. If OKC wasn't suffering from a lack of water, why in the hell would we even be talking about where we're going to get more of it from?

You do bring up a valid point about why OKC is pulling water from a more arid region, which is beyond dumb, but even some of the lakes in the eastern part of the state weren't (and some still aren't) full until the recent rains.

If the lakes in the eastern part of the state aren't full, then why does Texas covet their water?

Never said we don't have problems
1. we are in a drought cycle right now.
2. Population has dramatically increased
3. Yes we are sprawling, how do we stop it? Cut off Mustang or Blanchard, etc.?

I don't want the government to keep making new rules. If I like that scenario I would move back to California.

[HangryHippo]

If the lakes in the eastern part of the state aren't full, then why does Texas covet their water?

Never said we don't have problems
1. we are in a drought cycle right now.
2. Population has dramatically increased
3. Yes we are sprawling, how do we stop it? Cut off Mustang or Blanchard, etc.?

I don't want the government to keep making new rules. If I like that scenario I would move back to California.

Because Texas doesn't have enough water either? I mean it isn't rocket science... (it's climate science, )

1. Right. The drought is reducing our available supply.
2. Right. The increased population growth is straining the reduced supply.
3. Right. There are a number of ways to combat and/or reduce sprawl, many of which we discuss on this forum.

Okay, that's great. How do you propose a non-governmental entity deal with water issues, such as shortages? Who should set the rules for various enterprises that consume water? You don't like the government, so who takes responsibility for water policy?

[Swake]

I'm not saying conservation is a bad thing, but what I am saying is that Oklahoma City gets enough rain that this should not be an issue. Here's data I looked up on Tulsa's water system.

This information is for most of the metro area as most suburbs buy water from Tulsa. The Tulsa area’s two holding reservoirs are Lake Yahola at Mohawk Park and the Lynn Lane Reservoir in east Tulsa. They hold a combined 3.1 billion gallons of water. Tulsa’s average water usage is about 100 million gallons a day, so about a month’s usage.

The reservoirs in Tulsa are fed by up to four lakes. Lake Oologah north of the city, and Euchee, Spavinaw and Hudson lakes to the east.

Water levels for lakes currently in use:
Oologah – 642 feet, 5 feet above full pool, the lake at full holds 226.1 billion gallons of water
Eucha – 778 feet, at full pool, the lake at full holds 24.7 billion gallons of water
Spavinaw – 680 feet, 2 feet below full pool, the lake at full holds 9.6 billion gallons of water

Water levels for lakes not currently in use:
Hudson – 620 feet, 1 foot above full pool, the lake at full holds 67.5 billion gallons of water

All together Tulsa’s water system is holding 330 billion gallons of water right now, enough for the next nine YEARS of usage, and this is after five years of drought.

I’m not saying that conservation is a bad thing, but why is Oklahoma City in a crisis when 100 miles away lack of water isn’t even an issue on anyone’s mind?

[Just the facts]

Swake, the problem is that the water in those lakes is already accounted for by other entities. Its not just sitting there in surplus. One of the biggest claims on the water is to keep the Arkansas River open to commercial shipping traffic and that very issue came up a few years ago and whatever agency is in charge sided with commercial interest over drinking it.

[Swake]

Swake, the problem is that the water in those lakes is already accounted for by other entities. Its not just sitting there in surplus. One of the biggest claims on the water is to keep the Arkansas River open to commercial shipping traffic and that very issue came up a few years ago and whatever agency is in charge sided with commercial interest over drinking it.

The city of Tulsa outright owns Spavinaw and Eucha. The city built them and owns them. There's no issue of water rights with those lakes.

Lake Ooolgah's drainage basin is some 4,400 square miles that gets more than three and half feet of rain a year. That means Oologah's drainage basin takes in more than Three Trillion gallons of rainfall a year. Keeping the lake full is just a proverbial drop in the bucket. Lake Hudson, which is not even used, has a drainage basin twice the size of Oologah's.

Skiatook is the only lake in the northeast that I am aware of that is not full, even now, and that is due to the drought and Skiatook's relatively small drainage basin of just 354 square miles

[mkjeeves]

It was a simple question based on a simple premise. The whole idea behind the rate increase is to price people out of the water market so that overall consumption is reduced. Stickman said he wasn't happy about paying more but was going to do it anyhow. I am simply curious how much water would have to cost before it priced him out of the market.

The primary reason for the rate increase was to fund new infrastructure so OKC can keep growing.

[Swake]

The primary reason for the rate increase was to fund new infrastructure so OKC can keep growing.

The point at which you price water where market forces take hold and it becomes a real household and business cost driving down demand you are going to do great harm to poor people and irreparable harm to the overall economy.

[mkjeeves]

This link was cited upthread:

OKLAHOMA CITY – City officials introduced new water utility pay rates and a multiyear implementation Tuesday to help raise funds for a $700 million pipeline and other water infrastructure needs.

The rate changes, expected to be approved by the City Council next month and go into effect shortly thereafter, will affect all residential, business and wholesale consumers of Oklahoma City water, including several other municipalities in the metro area.

The money will go toward building a second pipeline running parallel to the current one that brings much of the city’s water from Lake Atoka 100 miles away. Water Utilities Director Marsha Slaughter said work on designing the pipeline will begin this year.

Rick Giardina from Raftelis Financial Consultants introduced the proposed changes to the City Council on Tuesday.

“Revenue needs are driven by capital improvements … and the water utilities and wastewater utilities in this country are the most capital-intensive utilities to operate,” Giardina said. “And the single most-important project is this pipeline.”

It has been more than 10 years since a study was performed on the city’s water needs compared with projected growth. The current study, which forecast revenue requirements through fiscal year 2024, identifies expenses, rates and fees by customer class.

Slaughter referred to the changes as an inclining-block structure that would encourage conservation, because increased water use pushes customers into more expensive tiers. Oklahoma City water customers currently pay the same price for each 1,000 gallons of water used.

Read more: Rate increases in the pipeline: OKC Council considers tiered water billing system | The Journal Record

[mkjeeves]

duplicate

[Buffalo Bill]

Swake, the problem is that the water in those lakes is already accounted for by other entities. Its not just sitting there in surplus. One of the biggest claims on the water is to keep the Arkansas River open to commercial shipping traffic and that very issue came up a few years ago and whatever agency is in charge sided with commercial interest over drinking it.

The problem at that time was that there was too much water. The Corp of Engineers was holding water back in Hudson, Grand, Oologah, etc to the detriment of recreation, to keep flows manageable on the Kerr-McClelland waterway for barge traffic.