Penn Square Mall

[Bunty]

I disagree with this. Woodland Hills has always had store locations first then if they opened a second, it would open at Promenade. That may have been the original intention but it never came to fruition.

I disagree back. When I went to Promenade Mall prior to 2005, the experience was similar to going to Penn Square Mall. But Penn Square Mall somewhat better. And going to Woodland Hills Mall back then was similar to going to Quail Springs Mall. Now in 2024, I'm not near as fascinated with malls as I used to be. Heck, I haven't checked out changes at Quail Springs Mall in several years. Forget about Woodland Hills Mall. I'd be embarrassed to say how many years it's been since I've been there.

[bombermwc]

So what I'm seeing here is two views:

Either you see PSM as declining or you see it as "just fine". And it doesn't appear that the points raised by either side are going to convince anyone of anything other than their own view.

You know what? That's exactly how capitalism and markets work, so I think that's great. If you think the place is still great, that's awesome and I encourage you to still go there. Personally, I'm on the opposite camp and probably wont be back for another 10 years. We'll see what it looks like then.

In the meantime, we'll see more malls either change their format (think how Shawnee re-formatted several places to be curbside) or flat close. Northpark is one of those oddities that shouldn't exist, but yet it does. Norman is still trucking in it's lower-end mall status, but can hang there. If University Town Center hasn't killed it yet, i dont think it will. Quail, well i'm sure it will continue on as long as Penn will. But Pete did give us a good listing in a previous comment about the number of malls in OK that have closed in the last 20 years. And it's not a short one. To me, the outlook is not good, which is a bit of a shame.


Also, i'm not sure you can count the outlet mall in the same category. Its almost curbside in that you are outside and can park almost right up to whichever place you want to go in. Hence, why they built it that way (and saving on the HVAC/Electrical on the "inside" portion). Perhaps this is the wave of the future. If they're building these things up in the frigid north of the US (and yes they are), then I find it likely.

[BoulderSooner]

So what I'm seeing here is two views:

Either you see PSM as declining or you see it as "just fine". And it doesn't appear that the points raised by either side are going to convince anyone of anything other than their own view.

You know what? That's exactly how capitalism and markets work, so I think that's great. If you think the place is still great, that's awesome and I encourage you to still go there. Personally, I'm on the opposite camp and probably wont be back for another 10 years. We'll see what it looks like then.

you also think and said that it had not been renovated in over 20 years ..... which was completely wrong .. 87 mil in 2013 ..

[jn1780]

What would another remodel even look like? What are we comparing PSM against? Everyone wants to throw some money to spruce up their business to make it more appealing for years to come, figuring out what gets a customers interest is a lot more difficult.

[Shortsyeararound]

I disagree back. When I went to Promenade Mall prior to 2005, the experience was similar to going to Penn Square Mall. But Penn Square Mall somewhat better. And going to Woodland Hills Mall back then was similar to going to Quail Springs Mall. Now in 2024, I'm not near as fascinated with malls as I used to be. Heck, I haven't checked out changes at Quail Springs Mall in several years. Forget about Woodland Hills Mall. I'd be embarrassed to say how many years it's been since I've been there.

I will disagree back back, but offer up some more info.
I worked at Woodland Hills in 2005 as a manager in a store that was insanely popular at the time. The company opened a location in Promenade mall and promoted an Asm from the Quail Springs store to run it. Promenade had carpet in the walk ways and smaller than Woodland Hills (visual difference) and a traffic count that was less than half of what Woodland had. My location did 2 million at the time and after Promenades first full year, Promenade did 700K. They never did more than that for however long they stayed open. Every store mgr that I knew of at a store in Woodland did higher than their Promenade counterparts (if had a store there) did almost double. The same is said for PSM and Quail- Penn does more- year after year. It was almost like if Quail does 1 million, Penn will do 2 (side note- Sooner Fashion usually was between both). This is just not one company I am referring to, but 3 that I worked for. Even ones I have not- look at Gap (full price only at Penn) closed Quail and Sooner since 2003, Abercrombie at Penn was the last one standing before they shut them down all in Oklahoma, etc.
Promenade, from the first time I went in, reminded me of an older, small town mall with one off stores, and was really low volume.

edited for typos

[scottk]

I will disagree back back, but offer up some more info.
I worked at Woodland Hills in 2005 as a manager in a store that was insanely popular at the time. The company opened a location in Promenade mall and promoted an Asm from the Quail Springs store to run it. Promenade had carpet in the walk ways and smaller than Woodland Hills (visual difference) and a traffic count that was less than half of what Woodland had. My location did 2 million at the time and after Promenades first full year, Promenade did 700K. They never did more than that for however long they stayed open. Every store mgr that I knew of at a store in Woodland did higher than their Promenade counterparts (if had a store there) did almost double. The same is said for PSM and Quail- Penn does more- year after year. It was almost like if Quail does 1 million, Penn will do 2 (side note- Sooner Fashion usually was between both). This is just not one company I am referring to, but 3 that I worked for. Even ones I have not- look at Gap (full price only at Penn) closed Quail and Sooner since 2003, Abercrombie at Penn was the last one standing before they shut them down all in Oklahoma, etc.
Promenade, from the first time I went in, reminded me of an older, small town mall with one off stores, and was really low volume.

edited for typos

This all sounds plausible in regards to foot traffic, location, an overall demographics....and yes I remember the odd feeling of carpet at Promenade and the weird layout with a 45 degree corridor to Mervyns and the food court tucked away in the corner on the 2nd floor.

My counter would be if a store was to close at Quail Springs Mall, would PSM see a comparable boost in sales? For example, when Macy's closed at QSM, did the Penn Square location really see a sizable jump in sales? The same with a store like GAP when they left QSM?

At the same time, I always wondered if an Apple Store opened in or near Quail Springs or even in a place like Spring Creek in Edmond, if it would generate more sales, or just move a percentage of existing customers from the Penn Square store over to a different location?

[rte66man]

I will disagree back back, but offer up some more info.
I worked at Woodland Hills in 2005 as a manager in a store that was insanely popular at the time. The company opened a location in Promenade mall and promoted an Asm from the Quail Springs store to run it. Promenade had carpet in the walk ways and smaller than Woodland Hills (visual difference) and a traffic count that was less than half of what Woodland had. My location did 2 million at the time and after Promenades first full year, Promenade did 700K. They never did more than that for however long they stayed open. Every store mgr that I knew of at a store in Woodland did higher than their Promenade counterparts (if had a store there) did almost double. The same is said for PSM and Quail- Penn does more- year after year. It was almost like if Quail does 1 million, Penn will do 2 (side note- Sooner Fashion usually was between both). This is just not one company I am referring to, but 3 that I worked for. Even ones I have not- look at Gap (full price only at Penn) closed Quail and Sooner since 2003, Abercrombie at Penn was the last one standing before they shut them down all in Oklahoma, etc.
Promenade, from the first time I went in, reminded me of an older, small town mall with one off stores, and was really low volume.

edited for typos

I was the first ASM at the Waldenbooks in Promenade when it opened in 1986 and was there through 1988. At no time were we able to get within 60% of the sales of the Waldenbooks at Woodland Hills.

[Zorba]

Promenade Mall was Tulsa's answer to OKC's Penn Square until 2005 when Mervyn's closed and then things slowly went downhill but accelerated in recent years.

My whole life (40 years) Woodland Hills was always the nicest mall in Tulsa.

[Zorba]

Promenade/Southland was never a higher end mall like Penn Square. The center opened in 1965 as the Southland outdoor shopping center and was enclosed in 1986 to better compete with Southroads Mall across the street and the much larger Woodland Hills Mall, which opened in 1976. Southroads opened in 1967 as Tulsa's first enclosed mall and got the higher end stores over Promenade. Even when Southroads closed in 1997, converting to the current Big Box center, and Foleys/Macys and some other stores moved across to Promenade, Utica Square was still just three miles away and by then Woodland was the dominant regional mall. I'm not sure that Promenade was ever completely filled, even right after Southroads closed.

Penn Square wasn't always upscale at all either. 50 Penn Place was the upscale mall, though very small, but when 50 Penn emptied, Penn Square had no Utica Square to compete for stores.

Tulsa had two other "upscale" malls. The Kensington Galleria opened in 1984 but didn't last 10 years and is now an office complex. The Williams Center Forum downtown was a little more successful, opening in 1978 but was converted to office space in 1995.

Where was Kensington Galleria? I don't remember that one at all. I used to ice skate at Williams Center all the time, was sad when it closed. We ate there a lot, but I don't really remember shopping there.

[Bunty]

My whole life (40 years) Woodland Hills was always the nicest mall in Tulsa.

The point made was that Promenade Mall was the nearest mall Tulsa had to compare with Penn Square until around 2005. As for Woodland Hills, OKC didn't have anything like it until Quail Springs mall opened.

[Bunty]

Where was Kensington Galleria? I don't remember that one at all. I used to ice skate at Williams Center all the time, was sad when it closed. We ate there a lot, but I don't really remember shopping there.

Near 71st and Wheeling during mid 80s. It was considered high end and didn't last very long. It was built at two levels next to a hotel of around 12 stories now known as the Marriott. It went out before malls closing down became a thing. Apparently, the largely oil-based economy could not support it at that time.

[Rover]

Why has this thread been hijacked to make it a debate on Tulsa defunct and struggling malls?

[therhett17]

Why has this thread been hijacked to make it a debate on Tulsa defunct and struggling malls?

People on this forum love to go way off topic lol

[Shortsyeararound]

I don't believe it is way off topic for any of this discussion. Penn Sq and its renovations/comparability to other malls was the current topic. Even discussing other malls was in relation to the longevity or traffic flow of Penn. That got going the dead mall list. The worry if Penn will survive in the future is a legit concern.
I believe it to be all relative.

[Cohiba]

How has North Park Mall held on for soooooo long? I remember rumors about North Park...right in the middle of the mall, cut it in half. Middle going North,keep as a mall. Middle going South...scrape and make into a strip mall or free standing stores. This rumor I heard in the late 80's/early 90's.

[scottk]

How has North Park Mall held on for soooooo long? I remember rumors about North Park...right in the middle of the mall, cut it in half. Middle going North,keep as a mall. Middle going South...scrape and make into a strip mall or free standing stores. This rumor I heard in the late 80's/early 90's.

I think because NorthPark doesn't try to compete with the large regional malls and features a lot of local shops, not generic national chains that have gone bankrupt in the past few years. Their footprint is also small, so low overhead on costs to operate. Unique clothing stores, BC Clark, and some diverse dining options also help.

A place like Penn Square is really at the mercy of national chains, and of course local stores usually struggle in a mall the size and layout of Penn Square.

[Zorba]

Near 71st and Wheeling during mid 80s. It was considered high end and didn't last very long. It was built at two levels next to a hotel of around 12 stories now known as the Marriott. It went out before malls closing down became a thing. Apparently, the largely oil-based economy could not support it at that time.

Oh interesting, I think my mom briefly worked in that building around 94.

[Rover]

How has North Park Mall held on for soooooo long? I remember rumors about North Park...right in the middle of the mall, cut it in half. Middle going North,keep as a mall. Middle going South...scrape and make into a strip mall or free standing stores. This rumor I heard in the late 80's/early 90's.

That’s how all these rumors go. 99% are just that…gossip.

[Pete]

How has North Park Mall held on for soooooo long? I remember rumors about North Park...right in the middle of the mall, cut it in half. Middle going North,keep as a mall. Middle going South...scrape and make into a strip mall or free standing stores. This rumor I heard in the late 80's/early 90's.

Because it's owned privately and probably has been paid off for decades.

The theater is still dead empty and a lot of the tenants are very low-key. I suspect few of them are paying much in rent.

Plus, 122nd and May is a great location. Tons of traffic, high incomes, close to the Memorial corridor, etc.


Having said all that, it's a ghost town inside there. Nothing but mall walkers.

[dheinz44]

They have some pretty solid restaurants in there too. I just tried out The Hamilton for the first time last weekend.

[bombermwc]

you also think and said that it had not been renovated in over 20 years ..... which was completely wrong .. 87 mil in 2013 ..

This is what they did with all that money:
"The improvements include renovations in the bathrooms, new signs, a new exterior on the elevator, new skylights, and changes to the food court.

Merritt said the bathroom upgrades also included the addition of a nursing room for new mothers."
Source: Journal Record article https://journalrecord.com/2013/12/no...s-real-estate/

I already said they did the entrance and the food court. But i would hardly call the rest of this major renovations. They replaced skylights which were leaking. That's maintenance. They replaced the outside of the elevator, which is regularly broken still. Moved customer service from that weird spot it was at in one of the wings, to the middle. Otherwise, the rest is bathrooms and signage.

So I would say again, that's not exactly a massive renovation of the mall. That's really deferred maintenance that finally got done. And it got done 10 years ago.

The renovations in 2000 were a major renovation. That's when they re-did ever single railing from that awful teel and purple to the shattered glass. They re-tiled to the marble look from the white. The entire look-and-feel of every inch of the mall changed then. Changing out tables in the food court, at least to me, doesn't count the same. They made little changes like adding the little food options and expanding the food court to allow for that. I'll give them that was a pretty big infrastructure change to do that. But you didn't even mention that one.

I'm not looking to go down a rabbit hole, but if you're going to make a statement about something like that 78 (not 87) million, then you need to know what that entailed.

[Soonerinfiniti]

What is it with Penn Square Mall and their roof etc.? I noticed the other day that that tennis shoe store by the Starbucks closed due to some type of water line break. Couple that with Williams Sonoma and their water issues, plus often seen buckets with heavy rain. Is the roof just defective? Weird to me.

What is going in the former Godiva space?

[Snowman]

What is it with Penn Square Mall and their roof etc.? I noticed the other day that that tennis shoe store by the Starbucks closed due to some type of water line break. Couple that with Williams Sonoma and their water issues, plus often seen buckets with heavy rain. Is the roof just defective? Weird to me.

...

Low slope roofs are kind of notorious for these kind of issues eventually cropping up, from google images it looks like early 2012 was the last time they did major renovation on the roof of the mall core, the anchors seem to be done on an independent decision of the core.

One building owner a company I worked for rented space from with a roof design of similar vintage to PSM tried to argue it was better to know where the leaks were going to be than do spot work on the roof, since patching the known leaks likely would shift it to space that were previously unknown could leak, until eventually work on the entirety of the roof would be needed. Not that they were a great landlord, plus having known leaks was hardly the building's only issue, and I want to say we moved basically as soon as our lease ended after that.

[Pete]

Wasn't the Williams Sonoma water issue from a sewer or water line?

[Pete]

Wasn't the Williams Sonoma water issue from a sewer or water line?

Just came across the lawsuit where W&S sued the mall over sewer line problems -- it had nothing to do with the roof.