BOK Park Plaza

[Bellaboo]

Not sure the credibility of USA Todays readers voting on something like this. St Louis has the arch as it's signature and DC has no 'skyline' at all.
Someone in the story remarked that Dallas beat out Paris...... how many people in Paris read USA Today and then would vote ?

[hoya]

Dallas Voted Best Skyline in the World: USA Today | NBC 5 Dallas-Fort Worth

That is the most ridiculous thing I've seen in the last year. That includes two Will Ferrell movies.

I don't even know where to start with this. People don't live in downtown Dallas (non single/no kids people) for very specific reasons. Parking is not one of them.

I never said they don't live in downtown Dallas because of parking. I implied that they don't live in downtown Dallas because it's not a very nice place to live.

Austin or Denver

Let me guess, the next cities you're going to bring up are San Francisco and Boulder.

Where did I say Austin or Denver? I never wrote that. Are you now modifying my posts just so that you have something to attack?

[Bellaboo]

That is the most ridiculous thing I've seen in the last year. That includes two Will Ferrell movies.



I never said they don't live in downtown Dallas because of parking. I implied that they don't live in downtown Dallas because it's not a very nice place to live.



Where did I say Austin or Denver? I never wrote that. Are you now modifying my posts just so that you have something to attack?

He has you confused with PhiAlpha

[ourulz2000]

#2 Most people who live in downtown Austin are single / no kids people.
#3 someone else said Austin / Denver. My apologies...

[PhiAlpha]

#2 Most people who live in downtown Austin are single / no kids people.
#3 someone else said Austin / Denver. My apologies...

Not really sure why you think aiming to make OKC more like Austin or Denver over Dallas and Fort Worth is as ridiculous as you are acting like it is... They both have much more desirable pedestrian oriented downtowns than Dallas and the proximity of those downtowns to other neighborhoods and urban districts in those cities are much more like OKC than Dallas or Fort Worth.

[adaniel]

The obsession and glamorization of Dallas/Ft Worth (and Texas in general) is by far my least favorite thing about OKCTalk. And I live in Dallas for Christ sakes. I mean, its an okay area but it's not perfect...not by a longshot.

Well the elementary school side of that has been taken care of and Classen SAS and Harding also offer good charter school options for post elementary school needs, but I don't think the lack of good inner city school options is unique to OKC. That being said, the school situation isn't ideal, but it's not something we have much control over and I don't see it improving quickly. I can't think of many cities, especially in this part of the country, that have great inner city schools and they are all able to overcome that issue and have vibrant downtown areas. I will also add that it doesn't seem to be that big of a deterrent because real estate prices in all of the neighborhoods you mention are sky high and most apartments and for sale housing in developments are full before the paint is dry.

This isn't going to be a popular thing to say, but we really need to stop looking through the lens of kids and families so much. Don't get me wrong, I love little kids, but the facts states that the vast majority of households in this country do NOT have kids, somewhere around 60%. And in essence, these people can live anywhere they choose without worrying about districts. You are correct, most urban districts are hot garbage. But they didn't become that way overnight, and it will take time to get them to improve.

[hoya]

I wonder what the percentage of households in OKC is. I think there are still a huge number of people here that have kids. Personally, I don't have kids yet. But I want some, someday. So anywhere I move, schools will be a factor. We can probably build a nice downtown based around people with no kids. But downtown OKC will explode once you can buy a townhouse for less than $250K and there are good schools in the area.

[BDP]

I think you might be giving the general public far more credit than they are due. I honestly believe that most average joe's off the street don't care and look at old buildings as old.

But all you have to do is hang out in the better preserved districts to know that a lot more average joes like going to those places than to our super blocks of parking. I don't know what they're thinking about when they do, but it certainly is an attraction for a whole lot of people. Preservation and restoration has been a vital part of downtown's recent success stories. It's actually getting to be pretty amazing that many people still can't recognize that.

[bchris02]

But all you have to do is hang out in the better preserved districts to know that a lot more average joes like going to those places than to our super blocks of parking. I don't know what they're thinking about when they do, but it certainly an attraction for a whole lot of people. Preservation and restoration has been a vital part of the downtown's recent success stories. It's actually getting to be pretty amazing that many people still can't recognize that.

People know they like it but they don't know WHY they like it.

[adaniel]

I wonder what the percentage of households in OKC is. I think there are still a huge number of people here that have kids. Personally, I don't have kids yet. But I want some, someday. So anywhere I move, schools will be a factor. We can probably build a nice downtown based around people with no kids. But downtown OKC will explode once you can buy a townhouse for less than $250K and there are good schools in the area.

If you believe the info here, Oklahoma County may be an outlier for more childless households than the national average (somewhere in the neighborhood of 67% vs 60% nationally).

Of course, I am sure a lot of these people like you would like to have children eventually. And frankly even a lot of people without kids would prefer a more suburban environment for other benefits like a larger yard, cheaper real estate, closer to their jobs in the suburbs, etc. etc. I just think this whole "urban schools as the poison pill for any sort of urban development" is played out and an increasing nonfactor for a lot of people, especially in light of this country's changing demographics.

Look at cities that, much like OKC, are growing faster than their suburbs (NYC, Seattle, Austin, New Orleans, etc) While NYC and NOLA have some great magnet programs, none of these districts are anything to write home about. But growth in these cities is chugging along quite nicely because they are able to offer other things. And these cities schools may very well improve in the future thanks to the influx of new tax revenue.

[BDP]

People know they like it but they don't know WHY they like it.

I guess, but does it really matter? I imagine that they actually do to some extent. They at least know that it's different. I think that's why it works in the core. To be successful, it has to differentiate itself from that other 600 square miles of the city and one of the best ways to do that so far has been preserving and re-purposing the older buildings because no one builds anything like them anymore. By their very design, it creates a different atmosphere than the rest of the city, which in turn instantly differentiates it from the other options that are in abundance throughout OKC. For downtown to really become a lasting success, it just has to be a real urban option in OKC. 499 works against that goal on so many levels it's kind a mind blowing that anyone even considered doing it this way.

[PhiAlpha]

The obsession and glamorization of Dallas/Ft Worth (and Texas in general) is by far my least favorite thing about OKCTalk. And I live in Dallas for Christ sakes. I mean, its an okay area but it's not perfect...not by a longshot.



This isn't going to be a popular thing to say, but we really need to stop looking through the lens of kids and families so much. Don't get me wrong, I love little kids, but the facts states that the vast majority of households in this country do NOT have kids, somewhere around 60%. And in essence, these people can live anywhere they choose without worrying about districts. You are correct, most urban districts are hot garbage. But they didn't become that way overnight, and it will take time to get them to improve.

Agree on all points.

[PhiAlpha]

I guess, but does it really matter? I imagine that they actually do to some extent. They at least know that it's different. I think that's why it works in the core. To be successful, it has to differentiate itself from that other 600 square miles of the city and one of the best ways to do that so far has been preserving and re-purposing the older buildings because no one builds anything like them anymore. By their very design, it creates a different atmosphere than the rest of the city, which in turn instantly differentiates it from the other options that are in abundance throughout OKC. For downtown to really become a lasting success, it just has to be a real urban option in OKC. 499 works against that goal on so many levels it's kind a mind blowing that anyone even considered doing it this way.

I doubt many here would disagree with you and I think the majority of the posters here are disappointed with how this turned out. I just think it's kind of pointless to continue complaining about it at this point. The fight for this block is over and the rest is completely out of our hands. All we can do now is hope the building turns out ok and that the retail spaces in the garages get filled to minimize the negative aspects of the development. Time to move on to the next preservation fight and stop wasting time and energy on a lost cause.

[hoya]

I guess, but does it really matter? I imagine that they actually do to some extent. They at least know that it's different. I think that's why it works in the core. To be successful, it has to differentiate itself from that other 600 square miles of the city and one of the best ways to do that so far has been preserving and re-purposing the older buildings because no one builds anything like them anymore. By their very design, it creates a different atmosphere than the rest of the city, which in turn instantly differentiates it from the other options that are in abundance throughout OKC. For downtown to really become a lasting success, it just has to be a real urban option in OKC. 499 works against that goal on so many levels it's kind a mind blowing that anyone even considered doing it this way.

For as much good as he's done for this city (and overall, he's still way in the positive), I don't think Larry Nichols quite understands New Urbanism. He's looking at this building and he's going "X amount more office space, check. Y amount more parking, check. Big name architect, check. Alright, let's do this!" He's an oil guy, not an urban design expert. Hell, if you'd talked to me like 5 or 6 years ago, I'd have been cheering this on as well.

[Pete]

^

Keep in mind Nichols is the chair (and therefore basically runs) OCURA, the Alliance for Economic Development and the Devon TIF.

And is unquestionably the biggest influence on the convention center committee.


His influence on downtown is exponentially greater than anyone else.

[Urbanized]

I think the comment (following PhiAlpha's post about Denver/Austin) that said "let me guess, the next cities you're going to bring up are San Francisco and Boulder..." was an attempt to paint a desire for good urbanism as a hipster or political (liberal) thing, as often happens in these discussions. Good urbanism is decidedly APOLITICAL, and you can make a strong case for it from either side of the aisle. It's just good, smart policy. Austin, Denver, Boulder and San Francisco aren't the only cities with more urban livability; so are places like Indianapolis, Milwaukee, Omaha and even Des Moines.

[gopokes88]

I would also point out that if your job is in the suburbs you are probably better off living there, near your job. Less windshield time = better quality of life, even if some of your entertainment options become more remote. If my job suddenly were in the 'burbs, I'd move there to enable less commuting, though I wouldn't be really happy about it. I like having all of my entertainment and services nearby. If I moved to the 'burbs I'd really be pulling for more development along the lines of Chisholm Creek.

What's nice about OKC is you can live in the out of the core, but not suburb area and still be 10mins from all the entertainment options. Plus when things are going on its typically when there is little to no traffic. It's a nice happy medium with a 10min drive to work.

[Jeepnokc]

If you believe the info here, Oklahoma County may be an outlier for more childless households than the national average (somewhere in the neighborhood of 67% vs 60% nationally).

.

I would be interested to see what parameters they used. Easy to make numbers say whatever just by changing parameters. this one puts people with kids at much higher numbers Desire for Children Still Norm in U.S.. This one looks at women 15-44 and states that childless women are at an all time high at 46%. A Record Percentage Of Women Don't Have Kids. Here's Why That Makes Sense.. Not necessarily disagreeing with you but questioning what the parameters were as that number seems really high. I am assuming also included retired households where there were probably children when house was bought but now the kids are gone.

Let me tie back into the topic now. I can see the need for parking garages and kids do play in as today's parents are more likely to scoot out for an hour or two to be more active in kid activities. This is tougher to do if you have to ride public transportation home to get your car to go the activity. Not impossible but tougher. It is easier to do if your child is at John Rex and you work at Devon but say you work at Devon in a suit and your child is at Classen.

I think we should have higher standards though where the parking is below ground or above the 2nd level so we can have street activity.

[BDP]

I doubt many here would disagree with you and I think the majority of the posters here are disappointed with how this turned out. I just think it's kind of pointless to continue complaining about it at this point. The fight for this block is over and the rest is completely out of our hands. All we can do now is hope the building turns out ok and that the retail spaces in the garages get filled to minimize the negative aspects of the development. Time to move on to the next preservation fight and stop wasting time and energy on a lost cause.

I know what you're saying, but I don't see it as complaining as much as it is just continued criticism. I think until it changes, it's worth it to keep pointing it out, especially as it unfolds. This is far from an isolated incident in OKC. Despite numerous examples of how preservation works and how super blocks don't, many still just can't recognize it. It's no longer just a sentimental position or one of aesthetic preference. Historic preservation and restoration is clearly an economic one. Couple that with what has been replacing demolition and continues to replace demolition, and we still keep having these projects that conflict with many of what makes a good downtown instead of adding to it. Even the "taller is always better" crowd should be against it, because demolition just keeps mitigating the need for more vertical construction.

Honestly, if the city and the major developers didn't forget this every single time it's done, then there would be no need for constant reminders. I just feel that celebrating something like 499 and "moving on" simply ensures that it will continue to happen. Just the fact that 499 is happening the way it is is testament than moving on from the last time it was done was a mistake. So, continuing to hold 499 up as bad development is not a fight for this block but for the downtown community and OKC as a whole. Santa Fe parking garage was built decades ago. It's still pretty easy to talk about how it sucks.

[edcrunk]

[Pete]

From https://twitter.com/OKCNightCourt:

[Pete]

From https://twitter.com/OKCNightCourt:

[Tigerguy]

Today's lesson in irony, and perhaps subjectivity as well...

[Stickman]

Well at 0835 on the 13th it will be down.

[Pete]

Just taken: