Convention Center

[Urban Pioneer]

All of that.

[okclee]

And then some.

[mkjeeves]

I will read it but the data had better be better than his "academic" papers.

It won't take much to be more rigorous than the papers and data we've been given locally to go beyond the basic fact:

It's that the current convention center sucks balls.

I have a loaner copy of the book on the way to me from a liaison at UIC. Don't know how much dedication I'll have in absorbing the nearly 500 pages of it but we'll see. In any case, I'm more concerned with the rigour at home, or the lack of.

[betts]

It's not that the new convention center is going to be so amazing that we're suddenly competing with Las Vegas. It's that the current convention center sucks balls.

After initially opposing the idea of a new convention center, this is why I have switched positions. $250 million is not a grandiose amount of money and we're not getting a grandiose building, but rather one that is appropriate for a city of this size. I will continue to insist that the location selected is a terrible choice, but I don't think the decision to build this is a terrible one.

If building this results in the Cox Center being torn down, the grid restored and some interesting development occurring on those lots, I will think the idea of a new convention center is even better than I do now.

[Just the facts]

It's not that the new convention center is going to be so amazing that we're suddenly competing with Las Vegas. It's that the current convention center sucks balls.

Larry is 100% correct about the Chamber still touting make believe pie in the sky plastic banana good time rock and role projections. They are insulting.

However...

Hoyasooner is also 100% correct. With the vast majority of convention center attendees being metro area residents this should have been sold as a quality of life issue from day one. It is okay for the City to have nice public buildings that the residents can be proud of. Based on my continuing education into all things urban I have even grown to like the location. Public buildings should get the prominent sites - so long as the buildings are designed to be worthy of their place of prominence. In other words - CCC, you took the prime spot - don't screw it up with some half-ass building.

[kevinpate]

I do not see the old Myriad being razed and any grid restoration taking place. I can be ok with that.
I think the current location of the former Myriad will eventually be the site for a newer, better Peake arena when it is time to countdown the last useful years of the current Peake.

[mkjeeves]

Someone quotes some statistics.
Someone challenges the stats.
Others try to shut down that conversation with what we have "sucks balls" and needs to be replaced.

Rinse and repeat.

However, the initial conversation is still important to the extent it informs the planning, design, building and managing of the facility, expansion and other related issues like a subsidized hotel.

[Just the facts]

The subsidized hotel is a whole other topic. Even if we get a 900% increase in out-of-town guests that is still not enough to keep the hotel full. I would prefer the private sector do it but the reality is the private sector isn't building full service hotels in the heart of downtown. They are building limited service and boutique hotels in Midtown, Bricktown, and Deep Deuce. If OKC wants a full service convention hotel we are going to have to help pay for it. I just hope there is enough non-convention demand for just such hotel because that is going to make up 90% of the hotel's customers.

[hoya]

Someone quotes some statistics.
Someone challenges the stats.
Others try to shut down that conversation with what we have "sucks balls" and needs to be replaced.

Rinse and repeat.

However, the initial conversation is still important to the extent it informs the planning, design, building and managing of the facility, expansion and other related issues like a subsidized hotel.

No attempt to shut down conversation.

I am reminded of an early episode of The Simpsons. In the first 30 seconds of the episode, Bart gets hit by Mr. Burns' car when he zips out into traffic on his skateboard. He suffers a tiny bump on the head and a broken toe. The Simpsons sue. When they testify, Bart mentions being "struck down by the luxury car of death" and describes a vehicle with flames shooting out of it as a demonic-looking Burns aims for him, laughing the entire time. Mr. Burns then describes how he was driving to the orphanage to pass out toys, when Bart purposefully rides his skateboard into the front of the car despite all attempts to avoid him, prompting Burns to leap out, cradle the unconscious boy, and scream "Why God??? Take me, I'm old!!!"

I am reminded of this by both sets of "experts" in this discussion. The Chamber of Commerce clearly wants a convention center, and have been willing to put forth some unbelievably rosy projections to support that. They're almost ready to sing the "Monorail!" song. Conversely, Heywood Sanders' materials seem to say that no one anywhere should build a convention center, ever. Neither side seems to use accurate information or do any real research into the market needs or trends of the cities they prepare these reports for.

[Spartan]

Has anyone who keeps saying the "old" Cox "sucks balls" actually been inside the Cox or had a meeting there? And I don't mean the Reno entrance where you are reminded of the old WRWA concourse. The meeting and event spaces are not bad, but I haven't used it in two years probably.

What I'm thinking is we wasted a lot of money on renovating it if it's so bad again.

[mkjeeves]

I get it. No need to speculate on or seek out what might be correct stats and a logical conclusion when you reduce the conversation to ball sucking.

[hoya]

Has anyone who keeps saying the "old" Cox "sucks balls" actually been inside the Cox or had a meeting there? And I don't mean the Reno entrance where you are reminded of the old WRWA concourse. The meeting and event spaces are not bad, but I haven't used it in two years probably.

What I'm thinking is we wasted a lot of money on renovating it if it's so bad again.

Yes.

Apparently it was even worse before the renovation.

I get it. No need to speculate on or seek out what might be correct stats and a logical conclusion when you reduce the conversation to ball sucking.

There are no objective stats that anyone will agree upon. It would take a tremendous amount of work to determine that, and anyone who is going to spend that kind of time and money is going to have an agenda. Welcome to decision making in real life.

[mkjeeves]

Yes.

Apparently it was even worse before the renovation.



There are no objective stats that anyone will agree upon. It would take a tremendous amount of work to determine that, and anyone who is going to spend that kind of time and money is going to have an agenda. Welcome to decision making in real life.

So lets don't even seek correct information, but make decisions on sophomoric hyperbole instead.

[BrettM2]

So lets don't even seek correct information, but make decisions on sophomoric hyperbole instead.

I haven't seen you post anything objective either. You only parrot what Sanders writes. This is no different than your posts previously: make a claim, someone disputes it, create a straw man and never address the issue again.

[mkjeeves]

In this case, I suggested both more information is needed and some it of it may be available, or at least the tools to help illuminate the situation. The dispute seems to be, hoya seems to think we know all we need to know and all we can know. What straw man and what did I miss?

[warreng88]

In this case, I suggested both more information is needed and some it of it may be available, or at least the tools to help illuminate the situation. The dispute seems to be, hoya seems to think we know all we need to know and all we can know. What straw man and what did I miss?

What information would you like to see?

[PhiAlpha]

Has anyone who keeps saying the "old" Cox "sucks balls" actually been inside the Cox or had a meeting there? And I don't mean the Reno entrance where you are reminded of the old WRWA concourse. The meeting and event spaces are not bad, but I haven't used it in two years probably.

What I'm thinking is we wasted a lot of money on renovating it if it's so bad again.

Yes, I've been there and while the ball rooms and lobby look nice (though even that is fading), they, along with the exhibit area, are way too small and lack some of the amenities that other venues in similar sized cities have.

Also, the renovation was completed over 15 years ago, id say we got some pretty good burn out of it. Back in 1993 we obviously didn't have anywhere near the convention interest that we do now and didn't need a large new building. We needed to have something though so upgrading the myriad was the best option available and the most likely to keep from derailing the MAPS ballot. There was already major objection to MAPS 1 and with the negativity the convention center received on the MAPS 3 vote and continues to receive. Can you imagine how adding a completely new convention center to a ballot that already included the canal, ballpark, ford center, and river improvements would've effected the MAPS 1 vote? It would've been much more difficult to justify it and the $230 million price tag back then.


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[Mr. Cotter]

The renovated meeting space is on par with a mid-level hotel's conference room. It's not great, but the meeting space doesn't suck balls. It's small, dated, boring and unimpressive, but it gets the job done. The expo space, however, is very limiting.

I'm no connoisseur of convention centers, but Cox is, on the whole, rather poor compared to most of the others I've been in. I'm not sure how our proposed square footage would compare, but something like new convention center in Irving, TX would be great here.

[Laramie]

2010 Forecast:

A new convention center in Nashville has fallen short of initial projections in hotel occupancy and economic impact, reports Nashville Business Journal. The Tennessean reported last month that critics of the convention center say proof has already surfaced that a new facility in Nashville was unwise.

“In its first year of operation, the Music City Center convention hall failed to meet projections for hotel bookings, saw its surplus revenue fund drop by nearly $8 million and had its bond rating downgraded,” reported Nate Rau for The Tennessean.

Critics of building new convention centers point to cities like Nashville and Charlotte, where convention center space has doubled while attendance has remained flat.

In Charlotte, where a new convention center was built in 1995, 19 years of data hasn’t pointed to economic success there, either.

“Since its 1995 opening, the center has fallen dramatically short of projections,” wrote Steve Harrison in The Charlotte Observer. “It was forecast to produce 528,800 hotel-room nights a year to fulfill its mission of putting ‘heads in beds’ ... In fiscal year 2011, it produced 142,000 room nights.”

However, the relatively low $250 million price tag for the city’s new center, along with the absence of a debt to pay for the project, makes Oklahoma City’s gamble a lot less risky.

Source: Oklahoma Gazette http://www.okgazette.com/oklahoma/ar...al-wisdom.html

There are risks that you take with any investment. Oklahoma City has continued its momentum with MAPS (projects). We're not Nashville or Charlotte; however our central location gives us a much better advantage than either of those cities.

"Oklahoma City looks oh-so pretty... ...as I get my kicks on Route 66." --Nat King Cole.

[warreng88]

Laramie, that is interesting information, but I am curious as to what the size of their convention space was before they built the new space. The size of the building is actually going to be smaller than the CCC because there will be no arena but 200,000 sq ft of contiguous space versus 80,000 and then some meeting rooms. Also, did they have a lot of full service hotels when that was built? OKC only has three if I remember correctly (Skirvin, Renaissance and Sheraton).

[PhiAlpha]

The renovated meeting space is on par with a mid-level hotel's conference room. It's not great, but the meeting space doesn't suck balls. It's small, dated, boring and unimpressive, but it gets the job done. The expo space, however, is very limiting.

I'm no connoisseur of convention centers, but Cox is, on the whole, rather poor compared to most of the others I've been in. I'm not sure how our proposed square footage would compare, but something like new convention center in Irving, TX would be great here.

Never been to the Irving Convention Center, but I'm pretty sold on Fort Worth's. It looks really nice on most of the outside, is fairly large, has a nice omni hotel/condos attached, and the banquet and convention spaces are pretty nice.

[Laramie]

Laramie, that is interesting information, but I am curious as to what the size of their convention space was before they built the new space. The size of the building is actually going to be smaller than the CCC because there will be no arena but 200,000 sq ft of contiguous space versus 80,000 and then some meeting rooms. Also, did they have a lot of full service hotels when that was built? OKC only has three if I remember correctly (Skirvin, Renaissance and Sheraton).

Not sure, but their 800-room Omni Hotel wasn't built until 2013, that could have been a major factor. Oklahoma City probably has a big advantage since we aren't borrowing money from the state and our convention center will be debt free once it opens.

"Oklahoma City looks oh-so pretty... ...as I get my kicks on Route 66." --Nat King Cole.

[Plutonic Panda]

Oklahoma City opens 'friendly' condemnation actions to clear way for convention center | News OK

[UnFrSaKn]

Is The New OKC Convention Center Worth It? - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports |

Beware the Facebook comments.

[kevinpate]

Did not see any FB comments. Guess that means god loves me.