Population Growth for OKC

[David]

One thing we do need and Florida does this, is charge an “impact” fee for new houses and apartments. Its a one time fee for new construction to help pay for new demands (schools, roads, fire, police and other infrastructure). Of course they were and have been a high growth state and here it might stagnate growth somewhat. Good idea though.

We have impact fees: https://www.okc.gov/departments/deve...nt-impact-fees

[OKC Guy]

We have impact fees: https://www.okc.gov/departments/deve...nt-impact-fees

Thats great. Wonder how much it pulled in since 2017? Also kinda funny is we give incentives for business to build yet add this cost in too, so I wonder what the difference is (impact fee vs incentive)? For example OMNI and Costco should have impact fee but we gave them incentive deal. What is the dollar diff?

[Rover]

All the stuff about taxes just ignores the real issues that make a lot of people like me leave, and the reasons I am currently considering leaving.

I am in my late 30's, creative professional, married to another creative professional. We make good money here, own a home, nice cars etc. BUT the labor market SUCKS. Now yes, in terms of amenities the city is getting MUCH better, but is still miles away from actual cultural amenities, no good art museums, no theater to speak of, none that are exciting anyway. Also, yes, the natural scenery is not the best and thats part of the desire to leave as well. But, the labor market is the thing that will eventually force my hand. The tax talk assumes people are moving for "a job", like just any job. The jobs that I WANT aren't here, and won't be. As a creative professional here you can eventually get your self a decent in house or agency gig here, that will top out at a very livable but middle income wage. But to go past that, it just gets pretty dead end unless you want to work in petro or insurance. There are very few employment opportunities that are both exciting and well paying. It's either exciting and you make what a good bartender does while doing work that'd pay a huge amount in major markets, or you're doing incredibly dull work for a company you may not care for for a good amount of money, but not advancing in quality or skills. I'll likely make enough regardless of market to pay the taxes, to pay rent, to eat, to drink, and on and on. But, the longer I Go on living here and traveling frequently the more it starts to feel like, Oklahoma is very cheap, and unfortunately you get what you pay for. I may have a smaller place to live, and have to trade in my sports cars, but like, if I were doing amazing work that I was passionate about, and had all the worlds culture outside my apartment, I probably wouldn't care. I'm probably going to decide in the next 6 months wether I'll bail. But right now it's looking like, yeah why wouldn't I, my job here is good, but where on earth would the next one be ?!?!

I’m just curious as to how many cultural things you engage in here. Many who make this comment don’t even know all that is here and how it compares. For instance, we have excellent Broadway productions with the leading tour of many shows. Lyric is a leading regional theater. OU and OCU has two of the top 5 performance schools in the country. Repertoire Theater here is nationally acclaimed. The Philharmonic is excellent and features many stars each year. Ballet is good...but maybe not excellent. Opera ... not here, but in Tulsa. There are great performances in the fabulous Armstrong Hall in Edmond. Western Heritage Museum (some still call Cowboy Hall) has huge collections of top notch art, including one of the biggest collections of Remingtons anywhere. The OKCMA has a modest but good permanent collection, but features world class exhibits for much of each year. The Fred Jones Museum in Norman has an impressive collection of classic art and some surprising other collections of things like icons, Native American art, etc. The OU library has the second best history of science collection among universities, etc, in the US (Harvard is #1). I’m sure I’m leaving out lots of other things from regattas to rodeos. From line dancing to big band swinging.

And the best part... it is all accessible and affordable. But, most who say there is no culture here have no idea what actually is here and they rarely go to find out it is quite good. But it sounds cultured to say there is no culture here. Lol

Living here you can afford to travel other places to go to their special places. I’ve probably been to more museums in LA, Chicago, Dallas, NYC than most of the actual residents I know who live in those cities. I get the best of their cities and the everyday best of OKC because I have money left over.

[bchris02]

Many who make this comment don’t even know all that is here and how it compares.

In my opinion, I think it's more that they compare it to Dallas or other cities that are much larger than OKC. If a person desires to live in a world class city with world class cultural amenities, OKC isn't going to cut it. However, neither would most other cities this size with the exception of legacy cities like New Orleans.

[Bunty]

I still cannot believe Oklahoma beat Texas to the punch on this. And furthermore, while there's hints of progress down there it seems they are a long ways from legalization. But things can change fast. Prior to 2016, Oklahoma had the second or third strictest anti-MJ laws in the nation.

No problem for me to believe Oklahoma beat Texas to legalized med. marijuana, since unlike Texas, Oklahoma allows voter initiatives via successful petitions. It also explains why casino gambling is booming in southern Oklahoma but not in Texas. It's harder to believe that the Oklahoma Legislature hasn't gutted or thrown out the medical marijuana program. Polls have indicated that Oklahomans supported legalizing med. marijuana at least as far back as 2014. It would have passed then, since the petition for it had stricter regulations. For the long term, it was probably fortunate that petition did not get enough signatures.

[bchris02]

No problem for me to believe Oklahoma beat Texas to legalized med. marijuana, since unlike Texas, Oklahoma allows voter initiatives via successful petitions. It also explains why casino gambling is booming in southern Oklahoma but not in Texas. It's harder to believe that the Oklahoma Legislature hasn't gutted or thrown out the medical marijuana program. Polls have indicated that Oklahomans supported legalizing med. marijuana at least as far back as 2014. It would have passed then, since the petition for it had stricter regulations.

Yeah it's a blessing that Mary Fallin refused to call a special legislative session after SQ 788 passed. If she would have, OK's med marijuana rollout would have probably looked a lot more like Arkansas.

[HOT ROD]

I think you will find a huge divide between visiting and living (in these bigger cities). Wait til you pay the big city taxes. And find that if you own a car everything about it is taxed so much higher. Higher registration fees. Higher repair. Tire disposal fees. Gas tax. And on and on. Most of the larger cities are struggling with homeless and drugs and crime. Needles and poop on sidewalks. Home or Condo ownership taxes are really going up too.

I’m not saying its awful but there are so many factors you rarely see when just visiting. At a minimum a person should consider renting a year to truly learn all those things.

^^THIS.

Grass is not always greener and I’d argue that okc’s man made attractions are or very close to world class. Only if OKC would embrace trees, foliage, sidewalks, lighting, transit and other human elements the way it does man made amenities. It is here where OKC is lacking most compared to other major cities but is such an easy fix I wish the city would just run with it.

[hoya]

I’m just curious as to how many cultural things you engage in here. Many who make this comment don’t even know all that is here and how it compares. For instance, we have excellent Broadway productions with the leading tour of many shows. Lyric is a leading regional theater. OU and OCU has two of the top 5 performance schools in the country. Repertoire Theater here is nationally acclaimed. The Philharmonic is excellent and features many stars each year. Ballet is good...but maybe not excellent. Opera ... not here, but in Tulsa. There are great performances in the fabulous Armstrong Hall in Edmond. Western Heritage Museum (some still call Cowboy Hall) has huge collections of top notch art, including one of the biggest collections of Remingtons anywhere. The OKCMA has a modest but good permanent collection, but features world class exhibits for much of each year. The Fred Jones Museum in Norman has an impressive collection of classic art and some surprising other collections of things like icons, Native American art, etc. The OU library has the second best history of science collection among universities, etc, in the US (Harvard is #1). I’m sure I’m leaving out lots of other things from regattas to rodeos. From line dancing to big band swinging.

And the best part... it is all accessible and affordable. But, most who say there is no culture here have no idea what actually is here and they rarely go to find out it is quite good. But it sounds cultured to say there is no culture here. Lol

Living here you can afford to travel other places to go to their special places. I’ve probably been to more museums in LA, Chicago, Dallas, NYC than most of the actual residents I know who live in those cities. I get the best of their cities and the everyday best of OKC because I have money left over.

Yeah, I agree with every bit of this, especially the last paragraph. We also have one of the best zoos in the country, a professional sports team, and anything you can't get here you can find in Dallas only a few hours away. How often are you really going to something like that?

[catch22]

As I said earlier it’s hard to explain to someone who is happy in OKC. The best I can describe some of the above comments are “we have food at home and you should like it, why do you want to stop and get fajitas?”

There’s nothing wrong with what’s at home, yes. It’s food I like, also. However I am craving fajitas. As an adult you can make that decision. There’s plenty of things to love about OKC, and many of them I do. I, and others, crave a different flavor. The price for my fajita dinner is higher than the frozen dinner at home, I have to wait in line to sit down, and after sitting down I have to wait to order and receive my food. I may even order a margarita with the meal to enjoy it even further. All those things are more expensive and less efficient than the perfectly good food at home. But is it worth it? It’s up to you to decide.

[bchris02]

As I said earlier it’s hard to explain to someone who is happy in OKC. The best I can describe some of the above comments are “we have food at home and you should like it, why do you want to stop and get fajitas?”

There’s nothing wrong with what’s at home, yes. It’s food I like, also. However I am craving fajitas. As an adult you can make that decision. There’s plenty of things to love about OKC, and many of them I do. I, and others, crave a different flavor. The price for my fajita dinner is higher than the frozen dinner at home, I have to wait in line to sit down, and after sitting down I have to wait to order and receive my food. I may even order a margarita with the meal to enjoy it even further. All those things are more expensive and less efficient than the perfectly good food at home. But is it worth it? It’s up to you to decide.

I agree with this 100%.

A few years ago I had a pretty active social circle down in Norman and one of my friends worked in career services at OU. I talked to him about this exact topic and he told me there was a noticeable personality difference between students who wanted to stay in OKC after graduation and those who wanted to move to DFW or some other big city. I believe it's a difference in mindset and values, and by values I'm not necessarily talking about politics or religion. I'm talking about what drives a person and what kind of lifestyle provides contentment. He ended up moving to Houston where he currently lives and loves it. A lot of people who are happy in OKC couldn't imagine living in Houston and dealing with that kind of traffic and humidity on a constant basis. For others like my friend, the benefits that Houston offers is worth dealing with the negatives.

[G.Walker]

I agree, I personally like OKC, not too big, not too small, seems about my speed. Dallas is a great place to visit, but I couldn't imagine staying here, nor Houston for that matter. Dallas is a different animal, it is the the 4th largest metro area in the nation, and we live only 2.5 hours away. If I need my big city fix, I just go to Dallas for the weekend like most people.

[EBAH]

IÂ’m just curious as to how many cultural things you engage in here. Many who make this comment donÂ’t even know all that is here and how it compares. For instance, we have excellent Broadway productions with the leading tour of many shows. Lyric is a leading regional theater. OU and OCU has two of the top 5 performance schools in the country. Repertoire Theater here is nationally acclaimed. The Philharmonic is excellent and features many stars each year. Ballet is good...but maybe not excellent. Opera ... not here, but in Tulsa. There are great performances in the fabulous Armstrong Hall in Edmond. Western Heritage Museum (some still call Cowboy Hall) has huge collections of top notch art, including one of the biggest collections of Remingtons anywhere. The OKCMA has a modest but good permanent collection, but features world class exhibits for much of each year. The Fred Jones Museum in Norman has an impressive collection of classic art and some surprising other collections of things like icons, Native American art, etc. The OU library has the second best history of science collection among universities, etc, in the US (Harvard is #1). IÂ’m sure IÂ’m leaving out lots of other things from regattas to rodeos. From line dancing to big band swinging.

And the best part... it is all accessible and affordable. But, most who say there is no culture here have no idea what actually is here and they rarely go to find out it is quite good. But it sounds cultured to say there is no culture here. Lol

Living here you can afford to travel other places to go to their special places. IÂ’ve probably been to more museums in LA, Chicago, Dallas, NYC than most of the actual residents I know who live in those cities. I get the best of their cities and the everyday best of OKC because I have money left over.

Oh I do all of that, I've been heavily active in the local arts community for years, I produce records here, play music very actively, I'm a member of the OKCMOA, contribute to a lot of art events, attend nearly everything I can get. The thing is, there are museums, there are performances, but none of our major arts organizations do anything challenging at all. The kind of exhibits you get at museums even like Crystal Bridges in Arkansas are vastly better than anything we get at OKC MOA, Fred Jones is a decent museum, if you want to see famous safe older stuff. The broadway shows are good, if you want to see safe older shows, it's all filtered through this kind of bland modern safe aesthetic and none of it. I mean, spend a weekend going to see art in even just Kansas City and it is OBVIOUS how lacking our arts institutions are. There is virtually no real theater to speak of, and certainly none that would deal with controversial modern productions or would even allow nudity. What I mean is, just like the job market, I'm not looking for X Units of "art" or X units of "job" I want good art, good jobs. You'd honestly be hard pressed to find a more active person culturally in this forum than me, being completely honest, and I'm pretty sure the few on here that know me in real life would agree. But, really, the cultural opportunities in some larger markets and even a handful of smaller ones are wildly better, not that I don't appreciate the ones we have, and we do have some great exceptions to this rule.

As far as affordable and accessible, most large city art museums are FREE.

Now the traveling bit is true and I do travel a lot, like a whole lot. Also, the cost of living does give me great advantage when doing so.

So what I'd say is yes, all of this is technically right.

But like I said, it's the labor market that is the problem for me. I love my neighborhood, I love my house, I love my friends here, the bands I'm in, the artists I work wand a lot of the things in the city. I mean, I'd fight to the death to defend Elemental Coffee as one of the best roasting programs in the WORLD. But, the labor market at the higher levels is disappointingly old fashioned and dull. Just look at the PRSA job board, it's pretty dismal. I'm not kidding when I Say like I'd live here comfortably for life, I'd complain about the art and try and make it better, and enjoy that process. But it will be the fact that it is nearly impossible to find engaging work here for myself and my wife that will lead to me inevitably having to leave.

[EBAH]

As I said earlier it’s hard to explain to someone who is happy in OKC. The best I can describe some of the above comments are “we have food at home and you should like it, why do you want to stop and get fajitas?”

There’s nothing wrong with what’s at home, yes. It’s food I like, also. However I am craving fajitas. As an adult you can make that decision. There’s plenty of things to love about OKC, and many of them I do. I, and others, crave a different flavor. The price for my fajita dinner is higher than the frozen dinner at home, I have to wait in line to sit down, and after sitting down I have to wait to order and receive my food. I may even order a margarita with the meal to enjoy it even further. All those things are more expensive and less efficient than the perfectly good food at home. But is it worth it? It’s up to you to decide.

dude yes, exactly this.

[EBAH]

Yeah, I agree with every bit of this, especially the last paragraph. We also have one of the best zoos in the country, a professional sports team, and anything you can't get here you can find in Dallas only a few hours away. How often are you really going to something like that?

the answer to your question, as often as I possibly can, which is very often

[EBAH]

Yeah, I agree with every bit of this, especially the last paragraph. We also have one of the best zoos in the country, a professional sports team, and anything you can't get here you can find in Dallas only a few hours away. How often are you really going to something like that?

and really, this is just a list of stuff made for white families and old people, and as a childless adult who's actually in to art and culture, it's all pretty boring.

[jonny d]

and really, this is just a list of stuff made for white families and old people, and as a childless adult who's actually in to art and culture, it's all pretty boring.

OKC has a very good art museum, as well as OU's art and natural history museums. The Civic Center is a very nice performing arts center.

[stlokc]

Caveat: I haven't lived in OKC for a long time. Second caveat: I do not have the day to day cultural sophistication of EBAH, clearly. But I read this post and find myself understanding and appreciating a lot of what he/she wrote.

It seems to me that OKC is really at that pivot point when it comes to age and population that cities go through when they move from being small and second or third tier, to really coming into their own as top 25 or top 35 cities. A few quirky places not withstanding, most towns under 750K-1 million don't have that much outstanding high culture, experimental art, more than a handful of good restaurants etc. Most towns over 1.5 million-2 million have them in abundance. It's the dynamic of a certain mass of people coming together, you're going to get all kinds and the bigger you are, the more of all kinds you're going to get. I think OKC is going through this growing process.

30 years ago the city would not have supported the Plaza District, the local options that have opened or the NBA. Our art museum was at the Fairgrounds for God's sake. So we grow and things come into being. The more we grow the more we get. That's not to discount many imbedded things about OKC that are problematic and do hold the city back. But these things come in time. It was once enough to have "an art museum" or "a zoo" or "those two good restaurants where you can eat something other than steak." People expect more now. Which is why people get disappointed about OKC when it's not there yet.

I do think the Job market follows, to some degree, that some dynamic. You can find a "job." You can find a "good job." You can find a better job than exists in Wichita or Waco or Springfield, MO. But the city needs to keep diversifying and keep exploring opportunities for employment in sectors that are not related to traditional oil, gas or professional services. Some, not all, but some of that is a function of population.

[EBAH]

OKC has a very good art museum, as well as OU's art and natural history museums. The Civic Center is a very nice performing arts center.

Again, this is a statement made by people who have nothing more than a passing interest in art or theater. It isn't a good art museum and people should know that, like it's a good looking building, but it's NOT a good art museum objectively. The Civic center is a nice facility, and I will give the Phil credit for having a MUCH more interesting program this year. But, if you were really in to classical music or theater you'd realize the lineup of events is very safe, older and pretty boring.

[EBAH]

Caveat: I haven't lived in OKC for a long time. Second caveat: I do not have the day to day cultural sophistication of EBAH, clearly. But I read this post and find myself understanding and appreciating a lot of what he/she wrote.

It seems to me that OKC is really at that pivot point when it comes to age and population that cities go through when they move from being small and second or third tier, to really coming into their own as top 25 or top 35 cities. A few quirky places not withstanding, most towns under 750K-1 million don't have that much outstanding high culture, experimental art, more than a handful of good restaurants etc. Most towns over 1.5 million-2 million have them in abundance. It's the dynamic of a certain mass of people coming together, you're going to get all kinds and the bigger you are, the more of all kinds you're going to get. I think OKC is going through this growing process.

30 years ago the city would not have supported the Plaza District, the local options that have opened or the NBA. Our art museum was at the Fairgrounds for God's sake. So we grow and things come into being. The more we grow the more we get. That's not to discount many imbedded things about OKC that are problematic and do hold the city back. But these things come in time. It was once enough to have "an art museum" or "a zoo" or "those two good restaurants where you can eat something other than steak." People expect more now. Which is why people get disappointed about OKC when it's not there yet.

I do think the Job market follows, to some degree, that some dynamic. You can find a "job." You can find a "good job." You can find a better job than exists in Wichita or Waco or Springfield, MO. But the city needs to keep diversifying and keep exploring opportunities for employment in sectors that are not related to traditional oil, gas or professional services. Some, not all, but some of that is a function of population.

I 100% agree with this. And again, I'm willing to put up with the growth period and I'd like to emphasize, I LOVE a lot about this city and live right in the middle of it and soak up everything I can. But I'm a designer and product developer, I recently almost had to move because of it when I was without a job for a few months a couple of years ago. When it came down to it, I could submit hundreds of resumes in LA, hundreds in new york, DOZENS in cities like Chicago, Nashville, Kansas City, DFW etc and like 1 in OKC. There just isn't the diversity of jobs here. The point of all this wasn't to rail on the art museum or any amenity, the point was I love my people here and would be happy to stay, but the job market will force me to leave.

[TheTravellers]

Again, this is a statement made by people who have nothing more than a passing interest in art or theater. It isn't a good art museum and people should know that, like it's a good looking building, but it's NOT a good art museum objectively. The Civic center is a nice facility, and I will give the Phil credit for having a MUCH more interesting program this year. But, if you were really in to classical music or theater you'd realize the lineup of events is very safe, older and pretty boring.

I'll second this (and your other posts), having lived in the Chicago area for 12 years, and the Seattle area for 2 years, as well as visiting NYC, SF, Dallas, etc. I will say that the OKC Ballet choices were better this year than they've been in a while, but they're still just an "all right" company. We've found that the OCCC events are better than a lot of the Civic Center stuff (Rioult modern dance company doing a 20 minute Deep Purple medley is pretty cool), so that helps...

[EBAH]

I'll second this (and your other posts), having lived in the Chicago area for 12 years, and the Seattle area for 2 years, as well as visiting NYC, SF, Dallas, etc. I will say that the OKC Ballet choices were better this year than they've been in a while, but they're still just an "all right" company. We've found that the OCCC events are better than a lot of the Civic Center stuff (Rioult modern dance company doing a 20 minute Deep Purple medley is pretty cool), so that helps...

Oh yeah man, thank GOD for University programs. I went to a play a week or two ago, sponsored by OU Linguistics Department that was an avant garde 2 person production (a theater company from Mexico City), 1 act play in Spanish about the history of water management in Mexico City and it was fantastic. I mean there are cool things to do here for sure, I just sometimes wish we had actual institutions willing to push envelopes as opposed to fitting nicely in them.

[Mr. Blue Sky]

and really, this is just a list of stuff made for white families and old people, and as a childless adult who's actually in to art and culture, it's all pretty boring.

I can’t let this go by...

WTH do you mean, “...for white families?” “Old people?”
We can’t normalize racism against white people in the name of fighting racism.
It seems somehow okay(?) to say things like this and not get called on it.
What is it about the zoo and the Thunder (mostly black men) that makes these things only for white families? The insertion of race into your comment was uncalled for and I wasn’t going to just let it pass by without comment.

[Rover]

I can’t let this go by...

WTH do you mean, “...for white families?” “Old people?”
We can’t normalize racism against white people in the name of fighting racism.
It seems somehow okay(?) to say things like this and not get called on it.
What is it about the zoo and the Thunder (mostly black men) that makes these things only for white families? The insertion of race into your comment was uncalled for and I wasn’t going to just let it pass by without comment.

There is a reason why NICHE interests are best served in BIG cities. It has nothing to do with the general level of sophistication. It has to do with having to have a sufficient base of people interested in a narrow interest topic who are willing and able to spend the time and money to support it. Of course there will always be more to do in bigger cities....it is just demographics and numbers.

I find it curious that interest and participation in traditional/classic art has been expressed here as racially dictated. Very disappointing. And frankly incorrect. I see plenty of minorities in attendance at the theater, philharmonic, museums.

There are many niches in art and culture active here, just not the quantities of people to support it. If someone enjoys the niches regularly and frequently, then OKC is not for them. But, it is more driven by interests than by race.

[OKCRT]

I agree, I personally like OKC, not too big, not too small, seems about my speed. Dallas is a great place to visit, but I couldn't imagine staying here, nor Houston for that matter. Dallas is a different animal, it is the the 4th largest metro area in the nation, and we live only 2.5 hours away. If I need my big city fix, I just go to Dallas for the weekend like most people.

Dallas is over rated on this board and with many folks in Ok. It's not that great of a city IMO.

[mugofbeer]

As I said earlier it’s hard to explain to someone who is happy in OKC. The best I can describe some of the above comments are “we have food at home and you should like it, why do you want to stop and get fajitas?”

There’s nothing wrong with what’s at home, yes. It’s food I like, also. However I am craving fajitas. As an adult you can make that decision. There’s plenty of things to love about OKC, and many of them I do. I, and others, crave a different flavor. The price for my fajita dinner is higher than the frozen dinner at home, I have to wait in line to sit down, and after sitting down I have to wait to order and receive my food. I may even order a margarita with the meal to enjoy it even further. All those things are more expensive and less efficient than the perfectly good food at home. But is it worth it? It’s up to you to decide.

I don't think anyone will argue this point with you. My issue is when you (figurative you) have those fajitas at home, go around telling everyone about how awful they are, how they are packaged, the quantity, the ingredients, the seasoning, the number of tortillas you have, the texture, the type, how salty, the sauce, the cost, how hard they are to make, etc. At some point you just have to go out and try some friggin' somewhere else if you don't like what you have at home.