BOK Park Plaza

[hoya]

At least the fence posts have character :-P

Oh, some of the people running the city are characters, too.

[Spartan]

I don't understand someone who comes into this thread to tell Internet people that they can't feel bad that this bad development is finally happening. That we are finally loosing what was such a great, in-tact historic block.

It would seem pretty obvious that a lot of people in OKC are going to express consternation at what is happening to our downtown. Based on the 1970s urban renewal era, I would expect a similar outraged sentiment at the misguided un-development that is changing the face of OKC.

[yukong]

In case it hasn't been stated....Implosion of the Black Hotel and the Auto Hotel is set for Sunday morning, September 13th.

[OKCisOK4me]

In case it hasn't been stated....Implosion of the Black Hotel and the Auto Hotel is set for Sunday morning, September 13th.

Historic...I'd love to be there for that. Not because it's cool, but because it's the demise of historic un-preservation.

[Colbafone]

Damn the city is smart. Don't want people there to witness the demolition? Aha! Do it on a Sunday morning during church! It'll be like it never actually happened. "If a bear blows up a building in the woods, but no one is there to see it, did it really happen?"

[OkiePoke]

Damn the city is smart. Don't want people there to witness the demolition? Aha! Do it on a Sunday morning during church! It'll be like it never actually happened. "If a bear blows up a building in the woods, but no one is there to see it, did it really happen?"

Or.... there are less people around and it is safer?

[yukong]

It's a safety measure more than anything. They cannot do it on a weekday as they will have to close several streets and some rubble will be on the surrounding streets. Saturday is also a fairly busy day so it's no good. But Sunday morning early...there isn't much activity downtown then. Their plan is to have the streets cleared by Monday morning.

[Spartan]

Or.... there are less people around and it is safer?

This. Devon/Hines are being very transparent about their desire to demolish 9 buildings.

[Pete]

Carpenter Square building completely gone.

From https://twitter.com/OKCNightCourt:

[bombermwc]

I don't understand someone who comes into this thread to tell Internet people that they can't feel bad that this bad development is finally happening. That we are finally loosing what was such a great, in-tact historic block.

It would seem pretty obvious that a lot of people in OKC are going to express consternation at what is happening to our downtown. Based on the 1970s urban renewal era, I would expect a similar outraged sentiment at the misguided un-development that is changing the face of OKC.

I think you might be giving the general public far more credit than they are due. I honestly believe that most average joe's off the street don't care and look at old buildings as old. That's part of how we got into that whole Pei mess in the first place. Unfortunately, I don't feel the general public, at large, learned anything from it. FORTUNATELY, we did at least learn SOMETHING with our leadership. It's up to each of us to form our own opinions on how much we feel they learned. Obviously the anti-demo people here think we're on the same path, while others (like myself) feel like we're not there yet, but we're starting to get on a slippery slope.

[ourulz2000]

What's wrong with parking garages? I'd rather park in a garage than walk from a lot blocks away. Fort Worth and Dallas have a bunch of parking garages in both downtowns. Most people who work in downtown Dallas drive there. Most people who ride the train or bus to Dallas are homeless people who never get off it. No one rides the bus to downtown Fort Worth. Who wants to sit in horrific metroplex traffic when its not even your car?

[hoya]

What's wrong with parking garages? I'd rather park in a garage than walk from a lot blocks away. Fort Worth and Dallas have a bunch of parking garages in both downtowns. Most people who work in downtown Dallas drive there. Most people who ride the train or bus to Dallas are homeless people who never get off it. No one rides the bus to downtown Fort Worth. Who wants to sit in horrific metroplex traffic when its not even your car?

We don't want to be Dallas or Fort Worth. We want to be a better city than that.

As far as your question, though... parking garages are not ideal development. They take up a lot of space and they don't produce anything. The only thing they do is to make it easier for people to live farther away from the city. Now in 2015 OKC, they're a necessary evil. We have to have parking garages or nobody can get downtown. But, the things we build today are going to be with us for a long time. Hopefully in 50 years, 499 Sheridan will still be standing, still be in use, still be part of our city fabric. So anything we build today should be built the right way, so that it's not only beneficial today, but it's still beneficial in 2060.

A building can include parking without a problem. But if a building is only parking, then it creates a barrier to pedestrian activity. It doesn't have anything to interact with people on foot. There are no stores, no restaurants, no offices. It's just a blank concrete wall that goes all the way down the block. Even if you try and make it pretty with lighting and decorative glass, there's still nothing for people to do on that block. So they tend to just not go there. What 499 Sheridan does is replace a bunch of buildings that had shops and stores and restaurants, and in their place it puts a tower and two large parking garages. One of those garages is across the street from two other parking garages. They are creating a pedestrian "dead area" where nobody walks around. That's a negative for the city.

The biggest problem with 499 Sheridan is that they didn't have to design it this way. There were dozens of suggestions in this very thread on ways the design could be improved, without significantly increasing the costs. You could have 5% less parking, and get 5 times better street interaction. And since this building is going to be with the city for a long time in the future, it's important to do it that way.

[bchris02]

Parking garages are a necessary evil, but they can be done in a creative where so that you don't even realize they are there.

[HangryHippo]

We don't want to be Dallas or Fort Worth. We want to be a better city than that.

As far as your question, though... parking garages are not ideal development. They take up a lot of space and they don't produce anything. The only thing they do is to make it easier for people to live farther away from the city. Now in 2015 OKC, they're a necessary evil. We have to have parking garages or nobody can get downtown. But, the things we build today are going to be with us for a long time. Hopefully in 50 years, 499 Sheridan will still be standing, still be in use, still be part of our city fabric. So anything we build today should be built the right way, so that it's not only beneficial today, but it's still beneficial in 2060.

A building can include parking without a problem. But if a building is only parking, then it creates a barrier to pedestrian activity. It doesn't have anything to interact with people on foot. There are no stores, no restaurants, no offices. It's just a blank concrete wall that goes all the way down the block. Even if you try and make it pretty with lighting and decorative glass, there's still nothing for people to do on that block. So they tend to just not go there. What 499 Sheridan does is replace a bunch of buildings that had shops and stores and restaurants, and in their place it puts a tower and two large parking garages. One of those garages is across the street from two other parking garages. They are creating a pedestrian "dead area" where nobody walks around. That's a negative for the city.

The biggest problem with 499 Sheridan is that they didn't have to design it this way. There were dozens of suggestions in this very thread on ways the design could be improved, without significantly increasing the costs. You could have 5% less parking, and get 5 times better street interaction. And since this building is going to be with the city for a long time in the future, it's important to do it that way.

You nailed it, hoya. It didn't have to be this way and it could have been even better just following the suggestions in this thread! That's the most irritating aspect for me.

[hoya]

What's wrong with parking garages? I'd rather park in a garage than walk from a lot blocks away. Fort Worth and Dallas have a bunch of parking garages in both downtowns. Most people who work in downtown Dallas drive there. Most people who ride the train or bus to Dallas are homeless people who never get off it. No one rides the bus to downtown Fort Worth. Who wants to sit in horrific metroplex traffic when its not even your car?

As far as sitting in traffic goes, you really have 3 options for dealing with it.

1) Live in the suburbs. Drive in traffic. Accept the long commute as part of your day. It's the price you pay for a big yard.
2) Take public transportation. In a city with rail, you can avoid the car traffic by taking the train. You'll want to live close to the station though, or you have to drive there, and then you're back at option 1.
3) Live close to work. The more downtown housing we have, the easier it is for you to do this.

Ultimately, it's a compromise. Each person has to decide if their commute is worth it. As long as you are driving your car, you're going to have to deal with traffic. There's no escape from that.

[SOONER8693]

This is going to happen, no matter how much moaning, whining, crying or how big a tantrum some of you throw. And some of you can tell us what an absolute, sorry ass, crappy, worthless, backwater, redneck place OKC is, it's happening.

[ourulz2000]

We don't want to be Dallas or Fort Worth. We want to be a better city than that.

LOL! Dallas is truly an international city with an amazing skyline. They have tons of public transportation, but most people drive and park in the parking garages. Unless you're literally trying to save a buck and ride a train, you're driving. Public transportation is a hassle. I'm sure some of the single people or couples with no kids who live in downtown use it, but no one that has a family wants to live in downtown. (or its very rare).
Fort Worth is vastly different than Dallas. It's essentially OKC. Much more laid back, but has an exploding population. Again, unless you're single or don't have a family your living in the burbs. Better schools, more convenient. less crime, etc.
The thing that Dallas does offer though is a lot of underground parking & underground shopping.

[Shooter McGavin]

As far as sitting in traffic goes, you really have 3 options for dealing with it.

1) Live in the suburbs. Drive in traffic. Accept the long commute as part of your day. It's the price you pay for a big yard.
2) Take public transportation. In a city with rail, you can avoid the car traffic by taking the train. You'll want to live close to the station though, or you have to drive there, and then you're back at option 1.
3) Live close to work. The more downtown housing we have, the easier it is for you to do this.

Ultimately, it's a compromise. Each person has to decide if their commute is worth it. As long as you are driving your car, you're going to have to deal with traffic. There's no escape from that.

Hoya-the one variable you missed is schooling. Most everyone with children wants to give their kids the best education they can. That is not offered in OKC public schools which is a HUGE deterrent to many people from living in downtown, Uptown, Bricktown, Deep Deuce, Mesta Park, etc., etc., etc. Therefore, many people who would love to live downtown or in the surrounding areas choose #1 or #2 over #3 not for the big yard, but for their children to have the best opportunity to succeed in life. Schooling will always win over a commute and until this changes many people will continue to demand parking downtown to facilitate their commute=more parking garages!

[Urbanized]

I would also point out that if your job is in the suburbs you are probably better off living there, near your job. Less windshield time = better quality of life, even if some of your entertainment options become more remote. If my job suddenly were in the 'burbs, I'd move there to enable less commuting, though I wouldn't be really happy about it. I like having all of my entertainment and services nearby. If I moved to the 'burbs I'd really be pulling for more development along the lines of Chisholm Creek.

[hoya]

Hoya-the one variable you missed is schooling. Most everyone with children wants to give their kids the best education they can. That is not offered in OKC public schools which is a HUGE deterrent to many people from living in downtown, Uptown, Bricktown, Deep Deuce, Mesta Park, etc., etc., etc. Therefore, many people who would love to live downtown or in the surrounding areas choose #1 or #2 over #3 not for the big yard, but for their children to have the best opportunity to succeed in life. Schooling will always win over a commute and until this changes many people will continue to demand parking downtown to facilitate their commute=more parking garages!

It's a problem that OKC needs to overcome. It still doesn't make the parking garage design here "good".

[bchris02]

Hoya-the one variable you missed is schooling. Most everyone with children wants to give their kids the best education they can. That is not offered in OKC public schools which is a HUGE deterrent to many people from living in downtown, Uptown, Bricktown, Deep Deuce, Mesta Park, etc., etc., etc. Therefore, many people who would love to live downtown or in the surrounding areas choose #1 or #2 over #3 not for the big yard, but for their children to have the best opportunity to succeed in life. Schooling will always win over a commute and until this changes many people will continue to demand parking downtown to facilitate their commute=more parking garages!

This is a significant factor. OKC isn't unique though in having a distressed inner-city school district. In fact, I would be willing to say that in most metropolitan areas, the suburbs offer better districts than the city.

[PhiAlpha]

LOL! Dallas is truly an international city with an amazing skyline. They have tons of public transportation, but most people drive and park in the parking garages. Unless you're literally trying to save a buck and ride a train, you're driving. Public transportation is a hassle. I'm sure some of the single people or couples with no kids who live in downtown use it, but no one that has a family wants to live in downtown. (or its very rare).
Fort Worth is vastly different than Dallas. It's essentially OKC. Much more laid back, but has an exploding population. Again, unless you're single or don't have a family your living in the burbs. Better schools, more convenient. less crime, etc.
The thing that Dallas does offer though is a lot of underground parking & underground shopping.

Say what you want about Dallas, but their downtown area along with Houston's are about as far as possible from what most people here want this city to be. If you've ever spent time in downtown Dallas and compared that to somewhere like Austin or Denver, you would understand why we feel that way. Outside of the pretty skyline, downtown Dallas sucks because it lacks most of what makes those other downtown areas cool...wide scale interaction at the street level. It's taken awhile and some traveling to fully realize how much downtown Dallas sucks, but it really does compared to other more urban cities of that size (and smaller).

Fort Worth is much better street interaction wise (at least in the Sundance Square portion), but we have several built in advantages that should make downtown OKC much better than downtown Fort Worth. The proximity of all our walkable inner city neighborhoods and urban districts to our central business district is a major advantage working in our favor compared downtown fort worth, which is pretty much on an island. The same could be said for Dallas (although uptown and some of the historic districts to the North & Northeast aren't too far from the business district) and Tulsa which at least as far as urban neighborhoods, seems like it is on an island (though Brady and Blue Dome obviously help on the urban district side of that).

[hoya]

LOL! Dallas is truly an international city with an amazing skyline. They have tons of public transportation, but most people drive and park in the parking garages. Unless you're literally trying to save a buck and ride a train, you're driving. Public transportation is a hassle. I'm sure some of the single people or couples with no kids who live in downtown use it, but no one that has a family wants to live in downtown. (or its very rare).
Fort Worth is vastly different than Dallas. It's essentially OKC. Much more laid back, but has an exploding population. Again, unless you're single or don't have a family your living in the burbs. Better schools, more convenient. less crime, etc.
The thing that Dallas does offer though is a lot of underground parking & underground shopping.

The fact that the first thing you mention is Dallas' skyline shows that you are missing the point. First of all, I don't think their skyline is impressive, especially considering the size of the city. And second, the fact that most of the people who live in Dallas want to live in the suburbs shows you some of the serious problems they have there. Remember that the skyline only matters when you're far away.

I didn't say that OKC is better right now. But OKC has the chance to become a nicer, more livable city than Dallas. We have the chance to avoid the massive traffic problems that Dallas has. We have the opportunity to create public transportation that is easy and convenient to use. We have the ability to make our downtown appealing to families, with good schools, more convenience, and better quality of life.

[PhiAlpha]

Hoya-the one variable you missed is schooling. Most everyone with children wants to give their kids the best education they can. That is not offered in OKC public schools which is a HUGE deterrent to many people from living in downtown, Uptown, Bricktown, Deep Deuce, Mesta Park, etc., etc., etc. Therefore, many people who would love to live downtown or in the surrounding areas choose #1 or #2 over #3 not for the big yard, but for their children to have the best opportunity to succeed in life. Schooling will always win over a commute and until this changes many people will continue to demand parking downtown to facilitate their commute=more parking garages!

Well the elementary school side of that has been taken care of and Classen SAS and Harding also offer good charter school options for post elementary school needs, but I don't think the lack of good inner city school options is unique to OKC. That being said, the school situation isn't ideal, but it's not something we have much control over and I don't see it improving quickly. I can't think of many cities, especially in this part of the country, that have great inner city schools and they are all able to overcome that issue and have vibrant downtown areas. I will also add that it doesn't seem to be that big of a deterrent because real estate prices in all of the neighborhoods you mention are sky high and most apartments and for sale housing in developments are full before the paint is dry.

[ourulz2000]

First of all, I don't think their skyline is impressive, especially considering the size of the city.

Dallas Voted Best Skyline in the World: USA Today | NBC 5 Dallas-Fort Worth

And second, the fact that most of the people who live in Dallas want to live in the suburbs shows you some of the serious problems they have there.

I don't even know where to start with this. People don't live in downtown Dallas (non single/no kids people) for very specific reasons. Parking is not one of them.

Austin or Denver

Let me guess, the next cities you're going to bring up are San Francisco and Boulder.