Penn Square Mall

[scottk]

Quail Springs certainly is not the shopping destination it once was, but they have held their ground as an entertainment and lifestyle center with Round One, AMC 24, Blue Zoo, and Lifestyle Fitness. I bet Von Maur wishes things went differently when they entered the market and had an opportunity at PSM. The area around Quail remains a retail corridor for sure. But as you mentioned with PSM, I don't know how JCP and Macy's are maintaining. Quail lost their Macy's a few years back in favor of Lifestyle and the Dillard's at QSM for the most part feels like 1987.

Woodland Hills is managed by Simon Property Group, as is PSM, and though it gives off Quail Springs Mall vibes with its location and mall layout in south Tulsa, it certainly is the closest thing to Penn Square Mall. Woodland Hills is building/getting Scheels Sporting Goods where Sears use to be on the west side, and apparently will be a destination type store like a Bass Pro Shops with interactive exhibits and a ferris wheel.

One of my concerns for both AMC Penn and Quail is how much longer they can maintain their market share with places like Flix, Showbiz, and others executing the movie, meal, recliner concept. AMC Quail has received minimal updates since they opened 25 years ago outside of the 4 larger theaters at the front. Penn Square AMC was one of the first with the recliners in OKC, but now almost every comparable place has that setup.

[Rover]

Penny’s future would be a lot brighter if they had 1) gotten Von Maur and LifeTime instead of Quail and 2) if they’d add some housing on the periphery.

HUH? PSM sits in the area with some of the best demographics in the state. Lots of customers very near.

If you are suggesting apartments, that won’t bring in high quality shops.

The mall wants shoppers with disposable income, not browsers and likely Amazon shoppers.

[Shortsyeararound]

BTW, if we're going to compare Penn Square to other malls, let's start with those in Oklahoma:

Crossroads Mall
Shepherd Mall
Heritage Park Mall
Sooner Mall
French Market Mall
Century Center Mall
Northpark Mall
Shawnee Mall
Quail Springs Mall
Oakwood Mall (Enid)
Woodland Hills Mall
Eastland Mall
Sheridan Village
William Center
Central Plaza Lawton


That's a ton (15) of dead or nearly dead enclosed shopping malls just within the state.

The only malls that are even close to Penn Square is Quail Springs and maybe Woodland Hills, and neither are nearly as robust.

And all have same issues with stores opening/closing, mom and pops, dead anchors, etc.

Woodland Hills, which I have worked at as well, has never really had any mall competition in almost 20 years (Promenade was a half empty by 2006, and Eastland was a few years closed by then). They are going to benefit greatly with foot traffic when Scheel's opens. If you have never been to a Scheel's, it is a sports store on steroids.

Some dead anchors in other malls around the US have converted into Dicks and Scheel's- that would be a nice PSM addition if/when Macy's or JCP closes.

[Shortsyeararound]

Quail Springs certainly is not the shopping destination it once was, but they have held their ground as an entertainment and lifestyle center with Round One, AMC 24, Blue Zoo, and Lifestyle Fitness. I bet Von Maur wishes things went differently when they entered the market and had an opportunity at PSM. The area around Quail remains a retail corridor for sure. But as you mentioned with PSM, I don't know how JCP and Macy's are maintaining. Quail lost their Macy's a few years back in favor of Lifestyle and the Dillard's at QSM for the most part feels like 1987.

Woodland Hills is managed by Simon Property Group, as is PSM, and though it gives off Quail Springs Mall vibes with its location and mall layout in south Tulsa, it certainly is the closest thing to Penn Square Mall. Woodland Hills is building/getting Scheels Sporting Goods where Sears use to be on the west side, and apparently will be a destination type store like a Bass Pro Shops with interactive exhibits and a ferris wheel.

One of my concerns for both AMC Penn and Quail is how much longer they can maintain their market share with places like Flix, Showbiz, and others executing the movie, meal, recliner concept. AMC Quail has received minimal updates since they opened 25 years ago outside of the 4 larger theaters at the front. Penn Square AMC was one of the first with the recliners in OKC, but now almost every comparable place has that setup.

AMC at Quail has closed off the back part of the theater from the midline up. I think it affects 6-9 theater rooms.

[Zorba]

BTW, if we're going to compare Penn Square to other malls, let's start with those in Oklahoma:

Crossroads Mall
Shepherd Mall
Heritage Park Mall
Sooner Mall
French Market Mall
Century Center Mall
Northpark Mall
Shawnee Mall
Quail Springs Mall
Oakwood Mall (Enid)
Woodland Hills Mall
Eastland Mall
Sheridan Village
William Center
Central Plaza Lawton


That's a ton (15) of dead or nearly dead enclosed shopping malls just within the state.

The only malls that are even close to Penn Square are Quail Springs and maybe Woodland Hills, and neither are nearly as robust.

You forgot Tulsa Promenade, which is now dead. I disagree that Woodland is dying. Especially with Scheel's replacing the old Sears.

[Zorba]

HUH? PSM sits in the area with some of the best demographics in the state. Lots of customers very near.

If you are suggesting apartments, that won’t bring in high quality shops.

The mall wants shoppers with disposable income, not browsers and likely Amazon shoppers.

Yeah, I hear all the people in Manhattan and Downtown Seattle have no disposable income, unlike the people living in single family homes in rural Mississippi.

[Zorba]

AMC at Quail has closed off the back part of the theater from the midline up. I think it affects 6-9 theater rooms.

I think it took out 12 or 14 theaters. They had a massive water leak around Thanksgiving, the whole place was closed for about a week. The manager told us the repairs would take until at least the summer.

[SomeGuy]

Penny’s future would be a lot brighter if they had 1) gotten Von Maur and LifeTime instead of Quail and 2) if they’d add some housing on the periphery.

In hindsight, closing the Sears at Quail and putting in Von Maur probably helped the mall as Sears really didn't ramp up closings til 2017 and the Sears would've likely closed at QSM around then anyways and sat vacant had Von Maur not moved in.

[Patrick]

Guys, JCP won't be leaving either Penn Square or Quail Springs. Simon and Brookfield, owners of both malls respectively, own JCP now. So they're going to keep JCP in their malls. That's one reason Simon and Brookfield bought JCP was to restructure them and keep them from leaving their malls. Same goes for Forever 21 which is now owned by Simon.

I doubt Macys will leave. They're the only Macy's store now in the OKC market. And all Macy's, aside from Northpark in Dallas, look like the one at PSM. The one at Woodland Hills is identical. Even if they do leave though, the disposable income in the PSM area is so large, they will find a replacement for Macys just like Woodland Hills dfound a replacement for Sears. Dicks has a warehouse in the area but not an official store. They could easily put a store in the Macy's Space. They're building a 2 level store up on Memorial. The PSM area does not have one. Also Scheels would be an option. They're locating in Woodland and also Towne East Square in Wichita.

And The Oak will hurt Penn some but not completely. Yes, Pottery Barn is leaving, but Pottery Barn isn't typically located in malls. Look at Tulsa. They're not in Woodland Hills. They're in Utica Square. The only reason Pottery Barn located in Penn is because there were no lifestyle center options in the area at the time. Now there will be. Penn is a mall and has traditional mall stores. The Oak will have upscale boutique stores. Completely different. Kinda like comparing Penn to Classen Curve. Completely different store type.

[Pete]

I disagree that Woodland is dying. Especially with Scheel's replacing the old Sears.

Which is why I also posted this:

The only malls that are even close to Penn Square are Quail Springs and maybe Woodland Hills, and neither are nearly as robust.

[BG918]

You forgot Tulsa Promenade, which is now dead. I disagree that Woodland is dying. Especially with Scheel's replacing the old Sears.

Promenade is in a part of Tulsa that is similar demographically to PSM/OAK in OKC - nearby high incomes neighborhoods and next to high traffic thoroughfares. Because of this location it should be redeveloped in a similar fashion to OAK. Tear down the indoor mall but keep the new ice arena and the parking garage but build out the rest with apartments with retail.

[Snowman]

I recently went to Penn for the first time in I think like 8 years or so.

The place is stuck in time for sure. You can tell there has been zero investment since the renovations in 2000-2001. That being said, it's still well kept, clean, and nothing looks like it majorlly needs any TLC or anything like that. They have re-done the food court at least a couple of times.

What I can see is that the stores in the place are starting to move towards the lower end of the stick. Penn had been known for having some more of the upper end of "mall stores" that you wouldn't have found in other places in OKC. Well, i think those days are going to the wayside. I was surprised to see that even the Banana Republic store is gone. What came in its place, kept the store build out and looks like a nice store still at least. But it's still a local mom-and-pop. When those start being more prevalent in a mall, the writing is on the wall for the eventual end.

I may be calling myself out as old now, but the population of customers also seemed a little more rough than they used to. I'm not sure if its just because the way people dress in general now is more relaxed after COVID with holey sweat pants and generally grunge being sort of cool again and where PJ bottoms are acceptable public wear now. My family laughed at me for saying this stuff while i was there since im in my 40's and not my 70s. LOL

The department anchors, well none of them ever do anything to do any sort of renovations on their stores....ever, in any mall. The same carpet that was installed when it opened, is the stuff that will be there when it closes. Stains and rips and all. I really wish these stores would go to carpet squares so they can at least pop them out....and not use light colored carpet too. Especially Macys is looking ROOOOUGH! And the inventory in these departments stores is so thin now. Just walking through, where you used to be crammed in with so much you could barely walk, now you could walk a semi truck through the things.

So the building itself, looks to be in fine condition. But my confidence in the place in terms of what's happening in there...not high. Simon is still taking in great profit from rents. They have no reason right now to do anything other than continue as they are. Putting millions into some sort of inside renovation wouldn't do them any good. It wouldn't attract more customers. Stores attract customers. And right now, malls are not what's attracting them. There is way too much competition out there from curbside.

On a personal note, i actual prefer malls myself. Park once and walk inside the rest. I tend to walk when i go store to store in a stripmall rather than drive between them. But i do prefer the inside walking myself. Again, i'm old.....

Either near or after Christmas may not be the best time to evaluate how thin the apparel selection is on average, durable goods would be another thing. Christmas is basically getting to be the end of when winter apparel will be full price or average sale, so they are not going to be restocking much more on winter clothing just to go on clearance. Yet depending on store it may not be till after February will completely switch seasons.

...
When was the last time you went to Penn Square and the parking lot was absolutely packed on a Saturday (and it wasn't Christmas)? That's extremely telling folks. Because that used to be every weekend.

City parking regulations have for decades typically demanded that parking be designed around the highest shopping traffic stores may have, which is the weekend before Christmas. Most stores need less than half of that the rest of the year.

[FighttheGoodFight]

Man we need a Scheels here in OKC.

[jn1780]

Guys, JCP won't be leaving either Penn Square or Quail Springs. Simon and Brookfield, owners of both malls respectively, own JCP now. So they're going to keep JCP in their malls. That's one reason Simon and Brookfield bought JCP was to restructure them and keep them from leaving their malls. Same goes for Forever 21 which is now owned by Simon.

I doubt Macys will leave. They're the only Macy's store now in the OKC market.

Never say never especially on an extended timeline. They obviously saw it in their short term interest to keep JCPennys afloat. That doesn't mean they will run the company any better. Now any future revenue problems become their problem.

And really the only Macy's that is sacred is the NYC one, but I joked with my wife that maybe one day the parade will become the Amazon Thanksgiving Day Parade.

[Pete]

I've walked through that JC Penney and it is about 25% merchandised.

Everything looks very thin and spread out; I never see anyone buying anything.


But, as I've mentioned, both Dillards are completely full and they always seem to be busy.

[BG918]

I know this anecdotal but I imagine this is a similar story for other people my age (late 30’s): I haven’t been in a mall in over 5 years and have no plans to go to one again, ever. Everything I buy is either online or from a locally-owned retailer not located in a mall. Even the nicest malls may not exist in 10 years, or will be like the “dead malls” listed in Pete’s post.

[poe]

The Macys stores in the central areas of Chicago (former Marshall-Fields) and Philadelphia (former Wanamaker’s) are fantastic historical buildings. Visit both if you get the chance.

[Urbanized]

As malls and anchor department stores generally continue to recede in popularity and performance, I do think Simon will need to keep its eye open for trends and adaptations that can prolong its life and levels of success. And make no mistake that PSM continues to be very successful, as far as malls are concerned. It’s clearly the best-performing mall in Oklahoma (by a lot), and that almost certainly has much to do with its central location and surrounding demographics.

The upscale retail trend nationally for the past quarter decade has clearly been in the direction of developments like Classen Curve and especially OAK, but until recently OKC resisted this growth and instead focused on downmarket, gross (in my opinion) and ultimately disposable big box stuff.

Gross big box comments aside, I do believe that its close proximity to the Belle Isle Walmart and its adjacent retail center - as poorly-executed as they were from a development standpoint in retrospect - has helped feed more retail traffic to PSM. In that way that development was actually beneficial to the community. I think OAK could be a similar positive for PSM as opposed to a negative; it enhances the retail density of that corner.

That said, I do indeed believe that the path to long term stability and success for PSM will require Simon to adapt to new realities and new trends in retail. Clearly enclosed malls are receding from the public’s taste and consumption patterns, and this will inevitably cause PSM to lose relevance, unless they find ways to update their business model.

I think the rendering upthread of the (Ohio..?) mall mixed use retrofit is actually a good inspiration for PSM long-term, though I don’t think their available land necessarily allows for a full mixed use adaptation to include office and residential.

Instead, I think they should look at expanding the retail square footage and frontages by reworking the parking, arguably the worst part of the PSM experience. They’ve already begun this to some extent with Cheesecake Factory, Whiskey Cake and Container Store, but I think to go any further they should look at replacing as much surface parking as possible with structured spaces, freeing up land in favor of revenue-producing square footage; potentially with a different look/feel, some outdoor space, possible some type of street frontage on the expressway or on Penn.

They should also look very closely at and embrace experiential retail, which is a clear trend and which is one of the few areas where brick and mortar has an advantage over online shopping.

I’m not suggesting any of this is an immediate need, but I do think adaptation will be required if that mall is to last another decade or two; much less 50+ years in some manner.

[MagzOK]

We don't go "mallin'" often, but we went into Penn Square yesterday in search of some specific shoes for my daughter. It was completely packed with people and was very alive. We went to Quail first and it had about half the life seen at PSM.

[Teo9969]

As malls and anchor department stores generally continue to recede in popularity and performance, I do think Simon will need to keep its eye open for trends and adaptations that can prolong its life and levels of success. And make no mistake that PSM continues to be very successful, as far as malls are concerned. It’s clearly the best-performing mall in Oklahoma (by a lot), and that almost certainly has much to do with its central location and surrounding demographics.

The upscale retail trend nationally for the past quarter decade has clearly been in the direction of developments like Classen Curve and especially OAK, but until recently OKC resisted this growth and instead focused on downmarket, gross (in my opinion) and ultimately disposable big box stuff.

Gross big box comments aside, I do believe that its close proximity to the Belle Isle Walmart and its adjacent retail center - as poorly-executed as they were from a development standpoint in retrospect - has helped feed more retail traffic to PSM. In that way that development was actually beneficial to the community. I think OAK could be a similar positive for PSM as opposed to a negative; it enhances the retail density of that corner.

That said, I do indeed believe that the path to long term stability and success for PSM will require Simon to adapt to new realities and new trends in retail. Clearly enclosed malls are receding from the public’s taste and consumption patterns, and this will inevitably cause PSM to lose relevance, unless they find ways to update their business model.

I think the rendering upthread of the (Ohio..?) mall mixed use retrofit is actually a good inspiration for PSM long-term, though I don’t think their available land necessarily allows for a full mixed use adaptation to include office and residential.

Instead, I think they should look at expanding the retail square footage and frontages by reworking the parking, arguably the worst part of the PSM experience. They’ve already begun this to some extent with Cheesecake Factory, Whiskey Cake and Container Store, but I think to go any further they should look at replacing as much surface parking as possible with structured spaces, freeing up land in favor of revenue-producing square footage; potentially with a different look/feel, some outdoor space, possible some type of street frontage on the expressway or on Penn.

They should also look very closely at and embrace experiential retail, which is a clear trend and which is one of the few areas where brick and mortar has an advantage over online shopping.

I’m not suggesting any of this is an immediate need, but I do think adaptation will be required if that mall is to last another decade or two; much less 50+ years in some manner.

I think failure to put a quality hotel and some residential on PSM property along with some other living sections would be pretty dangerous ground for the mall in the long run.

Ultimately, Between Oak and retrofitting PSM + Belle Isle parking lots, and maybe even redeveloping the office park around Pearl's, I think you could pretty easily add 1,500+ living units, plus hotel rooms. That gives the area a strong base of consumers who can support the massive hub of retail.

[PhiAlpha]

Which is why I also posted this:

I’ve been to both frequently. Woodland Hills is on an equal or near equal level with Penn Square. They are very similar malls. I’d argue that Sheels would give Woodland Hills a slight leg up (for sure as far as anchors go). Woodland Hills and quail aren’t a great comparison this point, especially in terms of the crowds. Quail feels like it’s struggling to a point and Woodland Hills doesn’t really have that feel to it. Penn is probably 1st, followed by Woodland and Quail in 3rd.

[OKCbyTRANSFER]

The Macys stores in the central areas of Chicago (former Marshall-Fields) and Philadelphia (former Wanamaker’s) are fantastic historical buildings. Visit both if you get the chance.

Try to go and time your visit when they play the pipe organ at old Wanamaker's/Macy's in center City Philadelphia.

[Bill Robertson]

I've walked through that JC Penney and it is about 25% merchandised.

Everything looks very thin and spread out; I never see anyone buying anything.


But, as I've mentioned, both Dillards are completely full and they always seem to be busy.

Glad to know this! Sounds like Dillard's it is. I have to go shopping with my wife to find a dress for our niece's wedding and something suitable for the rehearsal dinner. NOT looking forward to it. I'd just about rather be tarred & feathered. Alcohol afterwards will definitely be involved. My wife HATES shopping so it will not be pleasant.

[Pete]

^

That one Dillard's (in the old John A. Brown space) is exclusively for women and they have a ton of quality merchandise.

The other Dillard's is just as well-stocked for men.


We're lucky to have both those stores and I don't get why people keep complaining about Macy's when Dillards is in the same mall with two great department stores. Maybe they'd be happier if Macy's completely closed like they did in Quail Springs?

[Swake]

I’ve been to both frequently. Woodland Hills is on an equal or near equal level with Penn Square. They are very similar malls. I’d argue that Sheels would give Woodland Hills a slight leg up (for sure as far as anchors go). Woodland Hills and quail aren’t a great comparison this point, especially in terms of the crowds. Quail feels like it’s struggling to a point and Woodland Hills doesn’t really have that feel to it. Penn is probably 1st, followed by Woodland and Quail in 3rd.

Woodland must be doing just fine or Simon wouldn't be building a "Simon Premium Outlets" in Jenks. Regardless, the age of malls is over. Tulsa now only has Woodland where there used to be three malls at 41st and Yale alone, the recently dead Promenade, Southroads which has been converted to big box stores and the demolished Annex Mall.