New Downtown Arena

[April in the Plaza]

This isn’t near historic inflation. You must be too young to know.

You must not know the definition of "historic." Here you go, Old Sport:

1. famous or important in history, or potentially so.
"we are standing on a historic site"

[SouthOKC]

It’s too bad that people can’t even (or don’t want to try to) understand the opposition. That lack of curiosity or empathy is probably why our politics writ large is so toxic. I may be a no but I at least understand the arguments of the yes crowd and agree that some of them are compelling, just not enough to overcome my concerns.

Let me try to help you understand. Can you identify a single example in recent history where a new NBA arena was “transformative” for a city?

Let’s start with exhibit A - Oklahoma City. I grew up and visited downtown frequently throughout the 90’s when downtown OKC was dead and city leaders had the foresight after losing out on major corporate players to invest in their downtown. The initial MAPS projects got the ball rolling and the Ford Center was built on speculation in hopes that we could land an NHL team. The Devon tower and jobs for that company stayed in OKC due to our investment in ourselves. Amenities like a professional sports team, parks, arenas that can accommodate top level talent are what appeal to a young workforce. Who can forget Thunder Alley during the playoffs that was one of most impressive turnouts I have ever witnessed in OKC. It’s a shame we couldn’t figure out how to police a gathering of 30-40k people when NYC does it on 10x the scale all the time.

Think of any historic city dating back to Ancient Rome and you can probably name that primary venue that synonymous with that city. I can create a list of the most recent arenas/stadiums and gather some data on how these $1B+ monsters are spurring all types of development within the immediate vicinity. Any type of public investment on that scale is followed by lots of private investment too.

What are your direct concerns? Based on your statements it sounds like you’re really struggling to understand that you belong in the 20% “no” category?

[PoliSciGuy]

I can create a list of the most recent arenas/stadiums and gather some data on how these $1B+ monsters are spurring all types of development within the immediate vicinity.

I would absolutely love to see you try, because studies show that these stadiums don't actually pay off, and that these types of subsidies only help the wealthy while failing to even earn back their spending. You can start informing yourself on this here:

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers....act_id=4022547

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers....act_id=4022547

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/...46.2010.491464

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/...735-2166.00027

[SouthOKC]

I would absolutely love to see you try, because studies show that these stadiums don't actually pay off, and that these types of subsidies only help the wealthy while failing to even earn back their spending. You can start informing yourself on this here:

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers....act_id=4022547

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers....act_id=4022547

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/...46.2010.491464

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/...735-2166.00027

I guess this is where our opinions start to diverge. You’re only interested in the direct monetary impact based on your hand selected studies. You can say you’d like to understand both sides but your bullets are already loaded in the chamber. If I want to find information to back my opinion in todays media climate there is more than enough clickbait and cookie monitoring for Yahoo to serve up my favorite taste. You’re not questioning wether or not speculating and build the Ford Center was transformative to OKC.

You’re a grown adult. In a city in the middle of one of the greatest American renaissance stories of this generation. Just take a walk outside downtown and tell me your thoughts.

[PoliSciGuy]

I guess this is where our opinions start to diverge. You’re only interested in the direct monetary impact based on your hand selected studies. You can say you’d like to understand both sides but your bullets are already loaded in the chamber. If I want to find information to back my opinion in todays media climate there is more than enough clickbait and cookie monitoring for Yahoo to serve up my favorite taste. You’re not questioning wether or not speculating and build the Ford Center was transformative to OKC.

You claimed you could show the economic impact of these billion dollar arenas. Also, your evidence of the Ford Center being transformative is...that Devon decided to stay in OKC because of it? Do you have any proof to that claim? Can you show actual tangible evidence of how it was transformative beyond an unsourced anecdote?

[SouthOKC]

You claimed you could show the economic impact of these billion dollar arenas. Also, your evidence of the Ford Center being transformative is...that Devon decided to stay in OKC because of it? Do you have any proof to that claim? Can you show actual tangible evidence of how it was transformative beyond an unsourced anecdote?

I stated these $1B+ arenas spur development in the immediate vicinity. I could chase down articles to prove that point but I feel that just playing into your desire.

I gave you a personal viewpoint from someone that’s lived in this city. An actual citizen that’s watched the Thunder and the arena transform my city. If that’s providing a sports entertainment live event in the middle of February, live concert from a top artist, or an amazing event. You don’t even disagree with those points. However, you keep asking about how we’re gonna get paid back?

[PoliSciGuy]

I stated these $1B+ arenas spur development in the immediate vicinity. I could chase down articles to prove that point but I feel that just playing into your desire.

I gave you a personal viewpoint from someone that’s lived in this city. An actual citizen that’s watched the Thunder and the arena transform my city. If that’s providing a sports entertainment live event in the middle of February, live concert from a top artist, or an amazing event. You don’t even disagree with those points. However, you keep asking about how we’re gonna get paid back?

That’s some interesting framing to somehow justify not actually backing up your point re:$1b arenas. And I very much do disagree with your narrative, which is based on a single anecdote and some unsourced claims about Devon only staying here because of the arena.

As for getting events in February, we can easily update Paycom for a mere portion of the unprecedented outlay we are being asked to pay and still get acts, concerts, tournaments and other things. This isn’t an all or nothing proposition like some are trying to paint it.

This back and forth started with you claiming you couldn’t understand the other side. I’ve laid out some of the evidence to explain why some don’t see this as a good deal. I hope this was educational for you at least.

[SouthOKC]

That’s some interesting framing to somehow justify not actually backing up your point re:$1b arenas. And I very much do disagree with your narrative, which is based on a single anecdote and some unsourced claims about Devon only staying here because of the arena.

As for getting events in February, we can easily update Paycom for a mere portion of the unprecedented outlay we are being asked to pay and still get acts, concerts, tournaments and other things. This isn’t an all or nothing proposition like some are trying to paint it.

This back and forth started with you claiming you couldn’t understand the other side. I’ve laid out some of the evidence to explain why some don’t see this as a good deal. I hope this was educational for you at least.

This is an all or nothing proposition. The NBA has an expectation for teams to generate specific revenues and those owners attempting to run a profitable venture. Without the new arena it becomes much tougher to generate the forecasted revenues.

[BoulderSooner]

I would absolutely love to see you try, because studies show that these stadiums don't actually pay off, and that these types of subsidies only help the wealthy while failing to even earn back their spending. You can start informing yourself on this here:

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers....act_id=4022547

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers....act_id=4022547

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/...46.2010.491464

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/...735-2166.00027

the good old studies the are based on cities taking on long term debt .. super relevant .

[Teo9969]

Why anyone who loves OKC would vote “no” is beyond my understanding. It’s a $.01 sales tax that nobody misses or even thinks about for something transformative in a city our size. If the city owns the arena I could care less about any of the remaining details. My hope is that the total price tag exceeds $1.5B and we get a development that includes shopping, restaurants, and more to create an amazing modern town square.

It's really quite simple: because we have many needs as a city, and using the funds for this rather than that means we will at best delay those other needs and at worst lose the faith in our citizenry to keep taxing themselves for projects/programs that matter and thereby never have those needs met.

[Laramie]

Let me try to help you understand. Can you identify a single example in recent history where a new NBA arena was “transformative” for a city?

WINNER

MAPS I Oklahoma City Downtown Arena, led to Larry Nichols building the 845 foot high $750 million Devon Tower in our City. Larry Nichols was seriously looking at moving Devon Energy to Houston and building his tower there. He felt that our NBA city's status could attract young professionals to our city. The bare-bones minimum arena we built led to construction of that super skyscraper in OKC.

City built our downtown arena to attract NHL or NBA. We knew we had a change of getting one of those franchises thru expansion or relocation.

The New Orleans Hornets would have moved to Louisville instead of OKC had we not built our arena. The
two years we hosted the Hornets showed the NBA that our city was ready for its own franchise. Clay Bennett, Aubrey McClendon purchased the Supersonics, relocated the team to our city.

Mick Cornett was our mayor at the time the arena was built. NBA Commissioner David Stern referred to Cornett as the Mayor who wouldn't go away.

Now our $900 million proposed new NBA arena will be just as transformative at the one we built for $90 million. Our 'quality of life' has improved with corporate growth and expansion; MAPS brand has led to more projects being approved by voters bring more jobs into our city with increased
housing.

BTW: MAPS 4 approved $55.76 million for more affordable housing.

.

[PoliSciGuy]

MAPS I Oklahoma City Downtown Arena, led to Larry Nichols building the 845 foot high $750 million Devon Tower in our City. Larry Nichols was seriously looking at moving Devon Energy to Houston and building his tower there. He felt that our NBA city status could attract young professionals to our city. The bare-bones minimum arena we built led to construction of that super skyscraper in OKC.

.

I keep seeing this claim, and I am generally unaware of this history. Can you provide a source that speaks more to this, where Nichols makes this connection? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just personally unfamiliar with this tie.

[BoulderSooner]

It's really quite simple: because we have many needs as a city, and using the funds for this rather than that means we will at best delay those other needs and at worst lose the faith in our citizenry to keep taxing themselves for projects/programs that matter and thereby never have those needs met.

maps tax is for capital projects ... what needs is this delaying ??

[BoulderSooner]

I keep seeing this claim, and I am generally unaware of this history. Can you provide a source that speaks more to this, where Nichols makes this connection? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just personally unfamiliar with this tie.

without maps devon would have moved .. that is what nichols said ....

the connection is that the arena was part of maps

[April in the Plaza]

without maps devon would have moved .. that is what nichols said ....

the connection is that the arena was part of maps

Not necessarily saying you are wrong, but this def feels like a reach my guy.

[Urbanized]

I keep seeing this claim, and I am generally unaware of this history. Can you provide a source that speaks more to this, where Nichols makes this connection? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just personally unfamiliar with this tie.

From 2010:

https://www.oklahoman.com/story/busi...s/61247072007/

Devon Energy’s rise to where it is today coincides with the resurgence of downtown Oklahoma City following voters’ approval of the Metropolitan Area Projects initiatives in 1993. Nichols doubts the company would still call Oklahoma City home if not for MAPS.

"Certainly during the late 1980s and early 1990s Oklahoma City was a pretty depressing place. But in fairness, everyplace else in the oil and gas industry, Houston, Midland, Dallas, Fort Worth and Denver, there was no one immune from the bust.

"If Oklahoma City had stayed the way it was in 1990, before Mayor (Ron) Norick got us to where we are with MAPS, we couldn’t have hired the people we needed to be where we are.

"When we were trying to recruit people to come to Oklahoma City, even a decade ago, it was very difficult. Now it’s a very interesting proposition, and the city has grown incredibly and the reputation of the city has grown incredibly.

"Now in the last year or two we’ve gotten so much press, the effort to get them down here is less than it was five years ago. They’ve read about us, they’ve seen the stories about the Hornets, about the Thunder — that gives us credibility in being major league. They read stories in the New York Times about the growth of downtown or they’ve talked to someone who has been here. It’s a gradually changing yet perceptively changing momentum.”

It was a simple Google search, and there is far more available out there on this topic. If your question was sincere you wouldn’t have even had to ask it.

[Laramie]

I keep seeing this claim, and I am generally unaware of this history. Can you provide a source that speaks more to this, where Nichols makes this connection? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just personally unfamiliar with this tie.

Devon Energy’s rise to where it is today coincides with the resurgence of downtown Oklahoma City following voters’ approval of the Metropolitan Area Projects initiatives in 1993. Nichols doubts the company would still call Oklahoma City home if not for MAPS.

"If Oklahoma City had stayed the way it was in 1990, before Mayor (Ron) Norick got us to where we are with MAPS, we couldn’t have hired the people we needed to be where we are.

Link: https://www.oklahoman.com/story/busi...s/61247072007/

v v v Thank you, Urbanized v v v for the full interview.

[Urbanized]

More:

https://www.metrolibrary.org/archive...-larry-nichols

Wendy: “It would be easy thinking of the success of Devon and yourself to relocate to one of the other cities, maybe Houston or other places. Why did you choose to stay here in Oklahoma City?”

Larry: “Well, we of course started here. And this is home, which is probably the simplest answer. Although I must say if you looked at Oklahoma City in how it was in that 1989, 90, 91 after the bust that we had this was a pretty broken down beat up city and I give tremendous credit to Ron Norick in the MAPS program, historic wisdom, historic vision to go do what he did because if Oklahoma City had stayed where it was in that early period in the early 1990s, we would not have been able to attract people here from other parts of the world and we would have been forced to move to Houston and you can just see the evolution, the attractiveness of Oklahoma City change over time when 10 or 15 years ago it was really hard work you know, the 1995 to 2000 time frame. It was really hard work to persuade someone to move to Oklahoma City because the city, not just the downtown but the entire city was pretty beat up. The Great Depression we had in the mid-80s on banks on real estate on oil and gas had taken its toll not only on jobs, but I think on people's psyche. So, you know, the way they felt, their attitude, we're a pretty beat up group of people. That was a tough time. But with the progress of MAPS, that evolution has been dramatic where today with all the success we've had with the series of MAPS the success the Devon and others have had in a variety of industries and building this up. It's no problem at all to get someone to seriously look at Oklahoma City and you can see that reflected not only me selfishly talking about Devon, but getting Boeing to move over a variety of high paid people from Los Angeles here, you just see that ratified and time and time again, and I think what Devon is doing both the building that we're building and the center that we're building will be a, you know, a stake in the ground that this is a company that's put a lot of money into this is a great place to be and the spin off money for improving downtown. What other what Clay Bennett has done and bringing the Thunder basketball team here that you go down a long list of people, the river, which who would of ever dreamt that we'd have a river that would have a rowing events on it, where people from either coast would come and praise Oklahoma City as a great place to do world-class rowing events. Ten years ago we did not have a river, just incredible, incredible success we've had in that that momentum just builds on itself.”

[Urbanized]

Repeatedly denying that there was/is significant, real and palpable economic benefit in OKC driven DIRECTLY by MAPS investments (including an NBA-capable arena) is at best frustratingly obtuse and at worst incredibly dishonest.

If you didn’t experience OKC prior to MAPS, and prior to the arrival of the Thunder, it’s admittedly difficult to fully grasp the changes wrought. If someone was here during that time, this issue would almost certainly be crystal clear to them.

[PhiAlpha]

Not necessarily saying you are wrong, but this def feels like a reach my guy.

Aside from the public statements, my family and I know the guy and he’s made that comment in private as well. If not for the city investing in itself and improving, they would be in Houston with all the other companies that left Oklahoma between the late 80s and early 2000s

[PhiAlpha]

Repeatedly denying that there was/is significant, real and palpable economic benefit in OKC driven DIRECTLY by MAPS investments (including an NBA-capable arena) is at best frustratingly obtuse and at worst incredibly dishonest.

If you didn’t experience OKC prior to MAPS, and prior to the arrival of the Thunder, it’s admittedly difficult to fully grasp the changes wrought. If someone was here during that time, this issue would almost certainly be crystal clear to them.

Yes. Absolutely.

[Urbanized]

Aside from the public statements, my family and I know the guy and he’s made that comment in private as well. If not for the city investing in itself and improving, they would be in Houston with all the other companies that left Oklahoma between the late 80s and early 2000s

This is another great point. In the eighties and nineties especially there were multiple out-of-state relocations of Oklahoma-grown Fortune 500 companies. Some via acquisition and merger, some simply seeking greener pastures. Conoco, Phillips, Kerr-McGee, Fleming and others.

But even in the case of acquisitions and mergers everyone knew immediately when one was announced that the merged company would surely locate to the other city. They couldn’t get out of Oklahoma fast enough. Quality of life investments have allowed this city to move forward with confidence and to experience previously-unimagined economic and population growth. The fact that our municipal tax base is nearly twice what it was only recently ($1.9 billion projected this year vs as little $1 billion as recently as 2018) was no accident. It’s intentional.

[chssooner]

Not necessarily saying you are wrong, but this def feels like a reach my guy.

Ever get proven so wrong you shouldn't respond? This is one of those. MAPS kept Devon in OKC. Most people know that.

[BDP]

It's really quite simple: because we have many needs as a city, and using the funds for this rather than that means we will at best delay those other needs and at worst lose the faith in our citizenry to keep taxing themselves for projects/programs that matter and thereby never have those needs met.

I understand this concern and it is always brought up by other interest groups when any initiative is brought to voters that doesn't include those interests. That's just a good political strategy to draw attention to a campaign. However, MAPS and its $.01 sales tax funding mechanism began in 1993 and since then the city has continued to pass other funding initiatives for other needs. Sure, the city has issues that will still continue to need to be addressed, but I am not aware of anything that has failed because the majority no vote was based on the existence of the MAPS sales tax.

If there is an opportunity cost to consider in this measure, I think it would be the potential of other MAPS projects during the life of the arena tax. We've passed significant school and infrastructure bond measures during the life of MAPS, so that wouldn't be my immediate consideration, but I do think it would be hard to add a broader multi-project MAPS initiative while funds for the arena are being raised. with the penny tax.

[Jake]

I understand this concern and it is always brought up by other interest groups when any initiative is brought to voters that doesn't include those interests. That's just a good political strategy to draw attention to a campaign. However, MAPS and its $.01 sales tax funding mechanism began in 1993 and since then the city has continued to pass other funding initiatives for other needs. Sure, the city has issues that will still continue to need to be addressed, but I am not aware of anything that has failed because the majority no vote was based on the existence of the MAPS sales tax.

If there is an opportunity cost to consider in this measure, I think it would be the potential of other MAPS projects during the life of the arena tax. We've passed significant school and infrastructure bond measures during the life of MAPS, so that wouldn't be my immediate consideration, but I do think it would be hard to add a broader multi-project MAPS initiative while funds for the arena are being raised. with the penny tax.

Nuance isn’t allowed. You’re either zealously in support of this new arena or you’re wholeheartedly against it. Pick a side.

This is Reddit, uh, I mean OKCTalk after all.