University Town Center

[Pete]

You will most likely find out if that is actually true because a new building in an empty field at the proposed location is the most likely outcome.

Based on what other than your high hopes this will all somehow fail?

[FighttheGoodFight]

i mean i feel that softball, baseball, and men's and womens gymnastics deserve to be ahead of basketball.

I mean softball is getting a new stadium, baseball field is going to be redone for the new SEC rules and gymnastics will also use this arena (I'd guess).

[jdross1982]

My #1 concern is going to be the transportation infrastructure around this area and how it's going to affect my (and other Normanites) way around town on a daily basis. I live in North Norman and so this project is going to obviously affect me and others who live here whether we like it or not. I certainly do not want to see Norman traffic become just as awful (or worse) than what we now see in Edmond.

Agree with you but that is even more reason for it to go in this development. Additional infrastructure is needed regardless of where this will be built. Improvements to Robinson, Rock Creek and Tecumseh will all be needed and the service road needs to be extended from South of Cavenders to Tecumseh.

[SEMIweather]

Based on what other than your high hopes this will all somehow fail?

Based on the fact that the closest restaurant to the proposed location as of this moment of time is a Chuck E. Cheese.

[Pete]

Based on the fact that the closest restaurant to the proposed location as of this moment of time is a Chuck E. Cheese.

There is a $1B development planned all around the arena by the same people who have already built out all of UTC.

There is absolutely nothing to indicate all this won't be built.

I'm very sure OU won't sign a long-term lease without at least the entertainment part being substantially complete.

[SEMIweather]

Agree with you but that is even more reason for it to go in this development. Additional infrastructure is needed regardless of where this will be built. Improvements to Robinson, Rock Creek and Tecumseh will all be needed and the service road needs to be extended from South of Cavenders to Tecumseh.

I would hope that this will be the impetus for Norman to extend 24th Ave NW out to Flood instead of having it dead-end at Tecumseh.

It would also be ideal to add an exit onto the east side service road from NB I-35 to the south of the Rock Creek underpass, and an entrance onto NB I-35 from the east side service road to the north of the Rock Creek underpass. Doing anything with the west side service road is going to be just about impossible given the current configuration, but I think adding a half interchange to the east side service road is doable.

[SEMIweather]

There is a $1B development planned all around the arena by the same people who have already built out all of UTC.

There is absolutely nothing to indicate all this won't be built.

I'm very sure OU won't sign a long-term lease without at least the entertainment part being substantially complete.

I trust your analysis of this situation, so I hope you are correct about a majority of the entertainment district being complete before the arena gets going. Because my main concern is that as of right now, there isn't much to differentiate UTC from the 19th Street corridor in Moore, other than the fact that Norman has been smart enough not to grant every single business ingress/egress directly onto 24th Ave NW. This could all end up being great, but given how much of a disappointment the existing UTC development has been thus far, I'm going to need to see it to believe it.

Apologies for the Chuck E. Cheese joke, that was a cheap one, but I did have to get it in because the fact that it's currently true is very amusing to me.

[warreng88]

My #1 concern is going to be the transportation infrastructure around this area and how it's going to affect my (and other Normanites) way around town on a daily basis. I live in North Norman and so this project is going to obviously affect me and others who live here whether we like it or not. I certainly do not want to see Norman traffic become just as awful (or worse) than what we now see in Edmond.

It shouldn't affect traffic too much if the naysayers are correct because it won't be successful anyways... ::end sarcasm::

[Pete]

I'm sure the arena and entertainment district are needed to complement each other.

There is absolutely nothing, anywhere, that even hints that the arena would be built without the entertainment amenities.

And there is no way anyone truly believes that OU, their regents, the university president and arguably the best athletic director in the country hasn't thought all this through. It's all a bunch of wild speculation fueled by agenda-driven negativity.

[GoGators]

Based on what other than your high hopes this will all somehow fail?

Based on what has previously been promised by the developers of UTC vs what has actually been delivered.

[PhiAlpha]

Based on the fact that the closest restaurant to the proposed location as of this moment of time is a Chuck E. Cheese.

1) Who wouldn't want to have a slice of rat pizza at a child casino before or after the game?

2) Come on now. OU has made dumb development decisions at times (especially in the later Boren years) but do you really believe that they would make the decision to move the basketball facility to a completely different part of their campus and a little farther away from the main campus without doing their due diligence on the viability of what's being proposed over the last 5+ years? The biggest complaints about LNC have been access, location and nearby entertainment options, with entertainment options being the highest on the list. Why do you think they would agree to do something of this magnitude without some major assurances that the area around the arena will be developed to serve the number one complaint about the current arena location?

[Pete]

Based on what has previously been promised by the developers of UTC vs what has actually been delivered.

Oh, BS.

They've built over 20 restaurants and hundreds of thousands of SF of retail space, and have tons more planned. Also 4 hotels, a big athletic complex, apartments, senior living, a bunch of office space, a whole new section just started construction... This proposed development is literally 1/10th of what has already been built.

There is zero to indicate they can't add another handful of restaurants and stores, which is what the entertainment district will be.

[PhiAlpha]

I'm sure the arena and entertainment district are needed to complement each other.

There is absolutely nothing, anywhere, that even hints that the arena would be built without the entertainment amenities.

And there is no way anyone truly believes that OU, their regents, the university president and arguably the best athletic director in the country hasn't thought all this through. It's all a bunch of wild speculation fueled by agenda-driven negativity.

Best point you could make on this. No way the athletic department makes a decision of this magnitude with everything that's riding on it, without having done their due diligence and gotten the necessary assurances from developers/the city.

[Pete]

But, but...

What if OU has a big master plan just to crater and stick taxpayers with all their debt?

What if there is a plague of locusts that descend on North Norman?

What if a ton of really smart people with the university's best interest at heart are really dumber than a bunch of fans from another school who have no idea what they are talking about and keep making false statements to prove it?

These are basically the arguments being presented.


It's valid to discuss concerns about moving the games a fair distance from the main campus and it's valid to worry about ingress and egress but the rest of this is just wishful thinking by people who want to see OU fail so they can feel better about their own miserable situation.

[GoGators]

Oh, BS.

They've built over 20 restaurants and hundreds of thousands of SF of retail space, and have tons more planned. Also 4 hotels, a big athletic complex, apartments, senior living, a bunch of office space, a whole new section just started construction... This proposed development is literally 1/10th of what has already been built.

There is zero to indicate they can't add another handful of restaurants and stores, which is what the entertainment district will be.

They've built out a bunch of junk pad sites for big box retail and parking lots. It was promised to be a mixed use destination that would attract people from DFW and Kansas City. They ended up building a couple of strip malls and chain restaurant pad sites.

I'm sure the HomeGoods there is top notch, but I doubt its drawing people from Kansas City.

[Pete]

They've built out a bunch of junk pad sites for big box retail and parking lots. It was promised to be a mixed use destination that would attract people from DFW and Kansas City. They ended up building a couple of strip malls and chain restaurant pad sites.

I'm sure the HomeGoods there is top notch, but I doubt its drawing people from Kansas City.

Actually, the only thing that changed was the lifestyle center that never materialized after the entire retail landscape changed and then we were hit with a pandemic. And in its place is a proposed movie theater and much more.

You don't know or care about any of this, just keep desperately trying to find a way to crap on this project.

[Video Expert]

Agree with you but that is even more reason for it to go in this development. Additional infrastructure is needed regardless of where this will be built. Improvements to Robinson, Rock Creek and Tecumseh will all be needed and the service road needs to be extended from South of Cavenders to Tecumseh.

Agreed. I've thought quite a bit about this. There will need to be on/off ramps installed at the Rock Creek overpass. They are going to have to widen, add additional turn lanes, etc. in the Tecumseh/Flood/24th Ave. NW/I-35 area because it's a nightmare traffic problem as it stands now with all of the growth in North Norman. Extending 24th Ave. NW from where it currently ends at Tecumseh up to the North a couple of blocks to intersect at Flood will have to happen as well so those exiting Southbound I-35 on Flood have a direct route into the district without having to turn right on Tecumseh and then Left at 24th.

To your point JDRoss, officials are going to have to negotiate with Southwestern Wire to secure at the very least, right-of-way for a service/frontage road extension of Interstate Drive (on the East side of I-35) from the Subaru dealership northward to Tecumseh. For the right price, they might be able to buy them out completely and have them relocate elsewhere as this property is huge and a major eyesore. And speaking of frontage roads, they are going to have to make Interstate Drive One-way on each side of I-35. That's going to be unfortunate for some of us who like the current setup, but it is what it is.

And while they're at it, ODOT better figure out a plan quick to propose a railroad underpass for Tecumseh (US-77) just East of Flood. Hopefully the City can work with ODOT to make this happen.

[PhiAlpha]

They've built out a bunch of junk pad sites for big box retail and parking lots. It was promised to be a mixed use destination that would attract people from DFW and Kansas City. They ended up building a couple of strip malls and chain restaurant pad sites.

I'm sure the HomeGoods there is top notch, but I doubt its drawing people from Kansas City.

lol, what? Who ever said it would be a destination that attracted people from DFW or Kansas City? At most it was billed as being similar to developments in those cities. Admittedly developers have fallen short on the lifestyle center...though this development seems like it would finally add that component.

I think you're confusing this with Steve's infamous development that would "make dallas and kansas city jealous."

[PhiAlpha]

But, but...

What if OU has a big master plan just to crater and stick taxpayers with all their debt?

What if there is a plague of locusts that descend on North Norman?

What if a ton of really smart people with the university's best interest at heart are really dumber than a bunch of fans from another school who have no idea what they are talking about and keep making false statements to prove it?

These are basically the arguments being presented.


It's valid to discuss concerns about moving the games a fair distance from the main campus and it's valid to worry about ingress and egress but the rest of this is just wishful thinking by people who want to see OU fail so they can feel better about their own miserable situation.

You forgot about OU banishing fans to a children's rat casino for pre and post game entertainment. Heard they have a hell of a house band though. (sorry, had to lol)

[Video Expert]

lol, what? Who ever said it would be a destination that attracted people from DFW or Kansas City? At most it was billed as being similar to developments in those cities.

I think you're confusing this with Steve's infamous development that would "make dallas and kansas city jealous."

You are correct!

[warreng88]

lol, what? Who ever said it would be a destination that attracted people from DFW or Kansas City? At most it was billed as being similar to developments in those cities. Admittedly developers have fallen short on the lifestyle center...though this development seems like it would finally add that component.

I think you're confusing this with Steve's infamous development that would "make dallas and kansas city jealous."

Yeah, I think that had more to do with the CO-OP site, potential soccer stadium, hotel, apartments, etc.

[mugofbeer]

Agreed. I've thought quite a bit about this. There will need to be on/off ramps installed at the Rock Creek overpass. They are going to have to widen, add additional turn lanes, etc. in the Tecumseh/Flood/24th Ave. NW/I-35 area because it's a nightmare traffic problem as it stands now with all of the growth in North Norman. Extending 24th Ave. NW from where it currently ends at Tecumseh up to the North a couple of blocks to intersect at Flood will have to happen as well so those exiting Southbound I-35 on Flood have a direct route into the district without having to turn right on Tecumseh and then Left at 24th.

To your point JDRoss, officials are going to have to negotiate with Southwestern Wire to secure at the very least, right-of-way for a service/frontage road extension of Interstate Drive (on the East side of I-35) from the Subaru dealership northward to Tecumseh. For the right price, they might be able to buy them out completely and have them relocate elsewhere as this property is huge and a major eyesore. And speaking of frontage roads, they are going to have to make Interstate Drive One-way on each side of I-35. That's going to be unfortunate for some of us who like the current setup, but it is what it is.

And while they're at it, ODOT better figure out a plan quick to propose a railroad underpass for Tecumseh (US-77) just East of Flood. Hopefully the City can work with ODOT to make this happen.

This is something that should be done anyway, just to avoid it turning into another absurd traffic nightmare like Moore. The starting point should be to get rid of the 1960's two-way access roads!

[GoGators]

lol, what? Who ever said it would be a destination that attracted people from DFW or Kansas City? At most it was billed as being similar to developments in those cities. Admittedly developers have fallen short on the lifestyle center...though this development seems like it would finally add that component.

I think you're confusing this with Steve's infamous development that would "make dallas and kansas city jealous."

The developer did when originally asking for TIF money.

[PhiAlpha]

The developer did when originally asking for TIF money.

Link?

[Pete]

This is from Placer, a commercial real estate database.

UNP has more visits than any other shopping center in Central Oklahoma and probably the entire state. And they are now under construction on a big new expansion not to mention this additional $1B in improvements.

BTW, this same group developed Town Center Plaza in Midwest City which is very high on this list, right there with Penn Square.


Anyone trying to portray this development as losing money or not being able to deliver on expansion is completely delusional.