Streetcar

[okclee]

The problem with Hudson/Robinson isn't so much about those streets themselves, although I do dislike both (while still agreeing that Robinson is very strategic)..the problem is that in my mind, Broadway needs the streetcar. Automobile Alley is our most impressive urban corridor and I just think there's something romantic about the idea of streetcars gliding up and down that corridor. And I do think it is very important to make sure the streetcar goes through sexy urban areas. Not only does it make the TOD better, but it increases the perception of downtown. Hudson will still see improvements as a part of P180, being 1 block from the Robinson line, and other initiatives--but the streetcar riders get to experience that romantic idea of gliding up Broadway. I think that's important. I'm not attacking Hudson, because it does have the bus hub, cultural amenities, and Devon--but I just don't see it as a "must do."

I don't disagree with you about the attractiveness of Broadway, it is a very impressive downtown corridor for Okc, as I drive it everyday.

The idea of using Hudson allows us to move a few blocks to the west and therefore reaching more into Midtown. Also Hudson touches; Myriad gardens, the Devon rotunda, west Main street city offices, municipal buildings, museum of art and cafe, downtown library, metro transit hub, etc.

If only we could have both a Broadway / Robinson and a Walker / Hudson, not sure that is possible at this time?

[Kerry]

Supposedly, the streetcar cannot go north on Broadway between Sheridan and 4th (tight corner in front of Myriad and complex intersection at Dean A McGee).

[okclee]

It is going to be double tracked. You can put that issue to rest.

Is this true?

[Spartan]

Supposedly, the streetcar cannot go north on Broadway between Sheridan and 4th (tight corner in front of Myriad and complex intersection at Dean A McGee).

Kerry, I just have to ask, where are you getting your info that you're stating in this thread? First you said it will all be double tracked (which you then back-tracked away from), and now you're saying Broadway and Sheridan aren't workable.

[betts]

Is this true?

No. No route has been determined yet.

[Urban Pioneer]

While it hasn't been formally voted on yet, I would say that Hudson is completely out of the picture now and that double tracking on major streets is unlikely.

Hudson is considered by most to be too big of a "loop" and is not in the AA route that has moved on to our committee. Double tracking may occur on limited segments due to street constraints.

More to come soon.

[Kerry]

Kerry, I just have to ask, where are you getting your info that you're stating in this thread? First you said it will all be double tracked (which you then back-tracked away from), and now you're saying Broadway and Sheridan aren't workable.

Urban Pioneer said a while back that the streetcar can't make the turn from Sheridan to Broadway and they want to avoid the intersection at EKG/Broadway/DAM going north - hence no north bound track on Broadway. As for double track. The only way a street is going to see one set of tracks is if a coupling system is used to create a transit mall. Coupling is still double track, it is just that the other track is over one block. North and south bound service will not take place on the same physical set of rails. At best (or worst depending on you point of view) north on Robinson and south on Broadway would be the coupling configuration. Now, as far as true single track with sidings for passing, it isn't going to happen. I have looked at darn near every streetcar system built in the last 25 years and the only time single track has been built is a small 1/2 mile section in Portland (that was done because of the bridge structure of I-5 that it has to pass under as well road constraints in the area) and the Tampa TECO system. I am convinced that whatever consulting firm is hired by the MAPS III Committee they will not be recommending a single track configuration. Correct me if I am wrong but the AA group is required for federal funding but the streetcar is going to built under the criteria established by the MAPS III Committee.

[Meaculpa]

Kerry...

I completely agree. No modern system is a single track system.
This system will be double track.
I wonder if maybe some of us are talking around each other while saying the same thing?
A double track system can and often does have the opposite tracks on different streets.
In fact, this is a great way to a design a system.

However, single track spurs are good ideas.
Not enough money now, and we still need to sell the public
on the idea. Selling the idea will be easy if we design a good foundation downtown.
Especially, if the transit center is multi modal and usable.
Buses, buses, buses....we need buses!

[Spartan]

Urban Pioneer said a while back that the streetcar can't make the turn from Sheridan to Broadway and they want to avoid the intersection at EKG/Broadway/DAM going north - hence no north bound track on Broadway. As for double track. The only way a street is going to see one set of tracks is if a coupling system is used to create a transit mall. Coupling is still double track, it is just that the other track is over one block. North and south bound service will not take place on the same physical set of rails. At best (or worst depending on you point of view) north on Robinson and south on Broadway would be the coupling configuration. Now, as far as true single track with sidings for passing, it isn't going to happen. I have looked at darn near every streetcar system built in the last 25 years and the only time single track has been built is a small 1/2 mile section in Portland (that was done because of the bridge structure of I-5 that it has to pass under as well road constraints in the area) and the Tampa TECO system. I am convinced that whatever consulting firm is hired by the MAPS III Committee they will not be recommending a single track configuration. Correct me if I am wrong but the AA group is required for federal funding but the streetcar is going to built under the criteria established by the MAPS III Committee.

The last part of your post is correct about AA existing for federal funding, whereas the subcommittee actually controlling the destiny of the project--hence why they are trying so hard to work together and vet each other rather than do separate projects.

The thing about Broadway is that the track would be going south on Broadway...not going north. That would be done so that it's on the inside of the blocks, so people don't have to cross either Rob or Broad to go the other way. That makes them actually less than one block apart, truly, rather than slightly more than one block apart.

As for the double tracking, Jeff made the comment earlier, and I hope he will address this because I hate to quote someone on something vague, but he did suggest that we may forgo rapid service beyond downtown for the purposes of pleasing the council if they demand to see areas outside downtown served. He suggested a single track would be used, I believe last week, and I don't know if the idea has been crossed off yet, but that by far offers the best hope IMO for including other areas in the 6 miles of track. If it must be double tracked everywhere, unless an amazing amount of federal funding becomes available magically, it simply can not be done IMHO.

Kerry, this is the bottom line I'm getting at: There's no way, no way at all, to use 3 miles of track and adequately cover downtown AND Plaza or Uptown at the same time. It is simply not physically possible. There is no way you can include Plaza or Uptown, or anything else, without it being a single track that leaves downtown. That is the only way you include one of those areas, period. So not only do I think you're wrong in saying that single track is not an option (especially because I don't think you're basing it on anything), but I hope you are, because there's no way to make it happen otherwise, and that's the reality of the situation. I get it that all of these complete, and successful, systems are double tracked. I have only ridden a modern streetcar a few times in Toronto, but I assure you I "get" how you build fixed guideway systems..I was a daily rider of the 2nd busiest LRT system in Calgary. I understand the importance of having the line double tracked. A lot of those systems however did go back and double track after the starter system may have only had a single track, and that's what we're going to have to do. Double-tracking would be nice, it would ensure that we could run streetcars to the Plaza District or Uptown every 5 minutes if we wanted. But we will have to settle for 15 minute frequencies because there are political concerns at play. We want double-track, we also would like another $130M, and a toilet made of solid gold. But there are political concerns and councilors demanding that the system not just serve downtown. That's the reality of the situation.

Do we really want to wage a streetcar fight that could lead to funding for the entire project getting stripped altogether? We need a system that at least makes an ardent supporter out of Bowman and Salyer and the other core councilors who can be counted on to vote against White, Walters, and probably Kelly.

P.S. McAnelly actually talked at length during one of the Let's Talk Transit meetings about the ideal length of a single track. A Plaza or Uptown single track line would be further than the ideal length of a single track line, but there is virtually no difference in terms of service quality and feasibility for a line that is only a half mile. So instead of just letting Bricktown have the hub and no real streetcar presence on the east side of the tracks, what may be a simple and viable solution is to do a single track circulator that makes a loop through Bricktown and then goes up through Deep Deuce and meets back up with the N/S transit mall.

[Meaculpa]

Im sorry. Could someone teach me what AA means?
I don't think I can follow anymore, if I don't know.

Peace....

[SkyWestOKC]

Automobile Alley....a downtown district just north of the CBD......Broadway up to about 10th or 13th street I believe.

[Meaculpa]

Oh yes, Automobile Alley.

Thanks for the help.

[Spartan]

AA in this thread is referring to Alternatives Analysis, one of the committees overseeing the streetcar project.

[shane453]

So instead of just letting Bricktown have the hub and no real streetcar presence on the east side of the tracks, what may be a simple and viable solution is to do a single track circulator that makes a loop through Bricktown and then goes up through Deep Deuce and meets back up with the N/S transit mall.

I really like this- Don't get me wrong, love the idea of including 23rd and N Robinson in the streetcar (drove through that area today to check it out) - but we really need to reward/incentivize our urban districts that have already been building up for a decade, because they already have the ridership potential. There are almost 500 units within 2 blocks of Walnut, now 230 more with LEVEL. Plus additional TOD potential on the many large lots that are still vacant and underutilized.

And I know this isn't a tourist ride, but that doesn't mean we should avoid Bricktown which would be a key destination and origin point in the system. Bricktown is a gateway drug to downtown- there are locals who go downtown every weekend who have never been west of the train tracks except to the front door of the Ford Center. Putting one stop on the other side of THE WALL is almost as bad as a trolley. Tourists and Bricktown visitors won't see it through the Santa Fe wall and might not know it's even an option. Even worse, riders won't see Bricktown from the other side of the wall. Bricktown isn't just for tourists, either, it is a MAJOR part of an enjoyable downtown residential life, even for people who hate clubs. The movie theater, for example. Besides all that, I worked with tourists downtown for 3 years and I will guarantee you that the biggest chunk of ridership on the Oklahoma Spirit Trolley is from the Ballpark/Canal stop to the Memorial and back.

Ignoring Bricktown and Deep Deuce (which a lot of people seem to suggest) would be a really bad and unfair idea when it really doesn't take much track to include them.

[Meaculpa]

Spartan,

OK. Now this make sense. I was more confused than ever until you posted.

If you have time, please explain the AA. Does it have anything to do with ACOG?

Peace........

[Spartan]

Meaculpa, AA and COTPA are virtually one and the same. Whereas the subcommittee is essentially a group of citizens appointed by the mayor, and it's mostly people who first got involved with the streetcar project pre-MAPS with Jeff Bezdek's MTP group. It's just a bunch of downtowners who are passionate about streetcar and these guys have become so well-versed on modern streetcar (attending conferences, visiting cities like Portland/Seattle/et al, raising awareness, doing little things like measuring street widths here, etc) in the last 2 years that it's very impressive.

ACOG is the entity responsible for the hub study. So I guess in a way, although unofficially to my understanding, they are the 3rd or maybe 4th check and balance in the streetcar project. The hub study is just evaluating the best way to tie in streetcar with other transit modes and looking for the best site to utilize a facility that helps accommodate that.

Shane--in all honesty I don't think Bricktown would be a vital streetcar stop. I think it's questionable if the people that go there would be willing to spread out elsewhere in downtown. I think a streetcar route such as that would likely mean a lot more for Deep Deuce. One thing in Bricktown's favor though is that Sheridan does seem very conducive to a track and the Walnut Street bridge can handle track as well. Bricktown has problems that other districts don't. It lacks the mixed uses that Deep Deuce and the Arts District have. Mixed-use is what will be absolutely key to streetcar success. Being overwhelmingly restaurant and tourist oriented means that Bricktown needs to compensate with something new which it has not come out with since the ACM came to town. There's like a grand total of 50 residential units in the entire district and a fledgling retail presence despite how we've all heard it's coming soon, or that so and so is going to revolutionize that, and so on. I'm not saying it's a lost cause but Bricktown has effectively excluded itself from the downtown development buzz (which has become living-centric) by not developing mixed uses. The Gazette-reading crowd oohs and ahs over every new restaurant that opens downtown except Bricktown. The reason: nothing new ever comes to Bricktown anymore.

[shane453]

Bricktown has problems that other districts don't. It lacks the mixed uses that Deep Deuce and the Arts District have. Mixed-use is what will be absolutely key to streetcar success. Being overwhelmingly restaurant and tourist oriented means that Bricktown needs to compensate with something new which it has not come out with since the ACM came to town. There's like a grand total of 50 residential units in the entire district and a fledgling retail presence despite how we've all heard it's coming soon, or that so and so is going to revolutionize that, and so on. I'm not saying it's a lost cause but Bricktown has effectively excluded itself from the downtown development buzz (which has become living-centric) by not developing mixed uses.

The only use Bricktown is leaving out is residential, and I think it might almost make up for that in booked hotel rooms full of people who will want to see the north and west DT attractions like the Memorial and OKCMOA. While I agree suburbanites going to Bricktown may not exactly branch to the rest of downtown regularly, I think the rest of downtown does demand transit to Bricktown, because Bricktown will always be a really great amenity for DT residents (especially Harkins, huge restaurant variety, and special events). You really can't get any closer to a 24-hour neighborhood in all of OKC than Bricktown- Offices, tourists, and family entertainment by day, and by night bars, clubs, events, and hotel guests.

I think along Sheridan and up Walnut would be a perfectly acceptable way to include Bricktown and Deep Deuce- I wasn't sure about the possibility of tracks on the Walnut bridge. I think my ideal track configuration for the core would be Robinson-10th-Broadway-4th-Walnut-Sheridan-Robinson (about 2.5 miles of one-way track, leaving room for more). Chicago has The Loop. We would have The Boot. The shoe fits.

[Spartan]

I think the rest of downtown does demand transit to Bricktown, because Bricktown will always be a really great amenity for DT residents (especially Harkins, huge restaurant variety, and special events).

This.

You really can't get any closer to a 24-hour neighborhood in all of OKC than Bricktown

Except for the day time when Bricktown is absolutely dead.

[shane453]

Except for the day time when Bricktown is absolutely dead.

Depending on time of year and what day of the week and what's going on in downtown at the time. Just remember that if you walk down Sheridan and it's freezing cold or blistering hot and nothing's in town and it's Tuesday and you only see two other pedestrians... there are still hundreds of office workers, employees, and students in Bricktown at any given time. Bricktown is a lot more complex than we give it credit for.

[Kerry]

Kerry, this is the bottom line I'm getting at: There's no way, no way at all, to use 3 miles of track and adequately cover downtown AND Plaza or Uptown at the same time. It is simply not physically possible. There is no way you can include Plaza or Uptown, or anything else, without it being a single track that leaves downtown.

I already did it Spartan

http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.ph...188#post389188

My system hits within 2 blocks of every major downtown employer, residential neighborhood, and point of interest and directly serves housing for several thousand people. It does it all with double track and totals about 7 miles of physical track. The only thing that is not within 2 blocks is the new federal campus and it is three blocks for 3 different stops. Not only that, but my base system is also expandable in every direction (which I have already done as well). I even have a stop right next to the Level Urban Apartments which will be home to 500 people. Now I know you don't like the stop at Shartel but I am sure you will get over police officers, security guards, lawyers, and judges riding the streetcar to work and lunch.

[Tier2City]

Oklahoma City voters made their streetcar desires clear

The Oklahoman Editorial
Published: January 13, 2011

Voters were promised a streetcar system when they approved MAPS 3. It's a promise that must be kept on track.

Building it will be expensive — $20 million a mile or more — and it will be confined to downtown/Bricktown. It would primarily be used by tourists and downtown workers and residents.

Yes, the city's bus system that serves many residents who don't live downtown needs improvement. But the streetcar system and the bus system are separate issues. Ward 4 City Councilman Pete White and others want to scrap the fixed-track system for a cheaper alternative and shift spending to the bus system.

Nothing would turn off voters more in future initiatives such as MAPS than to have an unkept promise lingering from the previous vote. Nothing would give opponents of a future vote more ammunition.

We believe MAPS 3's passage was aided by voters excited by the streetcar system even if they weren't enthusiastic about other projects in the $777 million initiative. Since MAPS 3's passage in December 2009, the city has sought citizen input on the streetcar system; the response has been enthusiastic. No such ardor exists for shifting MAPS funds to a system using rubber-tired vehicles.

The streetcar system may never match its predecessor, scrapped in 1947 in favor of buses, but it's the start of an exciting new phase in Oklahoma City's progress.

More importantly, the system would be a promise kept to voters.

[Spartan]

I already did it Spartan

http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.ph...188#post389188

My system hits within 2 blocks of every major downtown employer, residential neighborhood, and point of interest and directly serves housing for several thousand people. It does it all with double track and totals about 7 miles of physical track. The only thing that is not within 2 blocks is the new federal campus and it is three blocks for 3 different stops. Not only that, but my base system is also expandable in every direction (which I have already done as well). I even have a stop right next to the Level Urban Apartments which will be home to 500 people. Now I know you don't like the stop at Shartel but I am sure you will get over police officers, security guards, lawyers, and judges riding the streetcar to work and lunch.

Kerry, some of the people in this thread have already told you that route is horrible, and I already told you it's flawed because you forgot to include a line past Ken Boyer Bail Bonds at 5th and Shartel, which is an important activity node for the jail area. It's nothing against you. For what it's worth, I think you have an excellent understanding of streetcar systems, I just don't think your downtown bearings are accurate. I just don't know if you've been in the vast abandoned area around the jail, and I don't know if you are picturing Heritage Hills exactly as it is.

And I don't get the impression that you're actively following the real discussion going on right now about the streetcar because I don't see where you've given much notice to some of the ideas that Jeff and others have come up with. And LEVEL won't have 500 residents, just as it's not a project you have to tell us about because we know where it is and what it is..

[Kerry]

Kerry, some of the people in this thread have already told you that route is horrible, and I already told you it's flawed because you forgot to include a line past Ken Boyer Bail Bonds at 5th and Shartel, which is an important activity node for the jail area. It's nothing against you. For what it's worth, I think you have an excellent understanding of streetcar systems, I just don't think your downtown bearings are accurate. I just don't know if you've been in the vast abandoned area around the jail, and I don't know if you are picturing Heritage Hills exactly as it is.

And I don't get the impression that you're actively following the real discussion going on right now about the streetcar because I don't see where you've given much notice to some of the ideas that Jeff and others have come up with. And LEVEL won't have 500 residents, just as it's not a project you have to tell us about because we know where it is and what it is..

Spartan - what is wrong with my downtown system? Why are you afraid of a stop in front of the Municipal Court and 911 Emergency Center? Are you afraid a little girl and her mother are going to rob you while they are on their way to the jail to visit dad? Would it make you feel better if they robbed you at Robinson and Park and then walked to the jail to visit dad?

[Spartan]

Yes I would prefer that.

I just don't like that part of downtown. Doesn't seem conducive to streetcar success.

[Urban Pioneer]

Walter Jacques
January 11th, 2011

GAZETTE LETTER TO THE EDITOR

An exchange in the Dec. 21 Oklahoma City Council meeting between Councilman Brian Walters and Mayor Mick Cornett (News, Clifton Adcock, “Bumper cars,” Dec. 29, 2010, Oklahoma Gazette) caught my eye.

Walters complained that public transportation, as opposed to vehicular transportation, is subsidized and would “take away that freedom.” Mayor Cornett correctly pointed out that roads and fuel are also subsidized.

Add to the explicit subsidies for fuel and roads the massive defense spending to ensure our flow of fuel continues unimpeded. Military spending isn’t a fuel subsidy per se, but try getting cheap oil from people who don’t like us without it.

In the FY 2011 Department of Defense Budget Request Overview, just the Overseas Contingency Operations (the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan) portion of the defense budget from FY 2003 to FY 2011 is $1.176 trillion, or about $358 million per day. (The entire defense budget for the same period is about $5.25 trillion, or $1.6 billion/day).

Councilman Walters’ daily commute is not only the most highly subsidized mode of transportation in the history of this planet; it’s also the most wasteful. Choosing to travel one person at a time in a vehicle that is consuming costly foreign oil where public transportation is or should be available will ultimately cost us the freedoms that Councilman Walters and the rest of us hold so dear.

When defense spending to support this addiction to foreign oil has destroyed our economy, life for us is going to change — if we don’t run out of oil first.

Nobody is proposing to take away Councilman Walters’ personal vehicle. But when it makes sense to fund and develop solid public transportation, we should support it and use it to the hilt.

—Walter J. Jacques

Del City


http://www.okgazette.com/oklahoma/ar...ssumption.html