Live music venue proposed for NW 23rd

[soonerguru]

Fhh!

[Urbanized]

What's intersting is that HH is in many ways the cradle of OKC's urban revitalization movement and HP movement. IIRC that organization was the first historic preservation group in the state..or perhaps it was OKC.

But that neighborhood began its comeback in the early 1970s, and many of the homes were not the grand structures we see today; the were chopped up into multi family flop houses and drug houses. The people who came in and revitalized them were the city's first urban pioneers, and it took a lot of hard work to restore that neighborhood to its former glory. At the time, nobody who mattered cared about downtown or the inner city, and I'm sure those people heard from their friends and families that they were crazy.

Of course, many/most of the people responsible for that have moved on, either to the great beyond or more likely by selling. And many of the people who live there now probably have no idea about the sketchy history.

I'm not sure if any of this has any real relevance to the discussion at hand, but it is an interesting irony nonetheless.

[Rajah]

I own a house on 25th and Walker. Nearly all my neighbors are old apartments so there's hardly ever parking in front of my house as is. (I park in my garage) I don't care! We love to hang out on the front porch and see people walking all through out the neighborhood. I realize it's going to get much louder on my block but what comes with it will be so great. People are going to have to get used to people parking on the street in front of their houses in this area. As long as the visitors are here to enjoy the neighborhood then I'm happy.

[Pete]

This project goes before the Planning Commission next Thursday, Feb. 27th.

It was approved by urban design with the caveat a parking plan be created.

There are about about a dozen protest letters from people all in Heritage Hills or Mesta Park. Didn't see any from north of 23rd. Among those urging the committee to deny is Chris Lower, proprietor of Big Truck Tacos, Back Yard BBQ and the proposed Pizzeria Gusto as part of The Rise development.

The applicants countered with the following parking survey:

[BDK]

Pete, why would Chris Lower want denial?

[Pete]

[dankrutka]

Would it not be more productive to pressure the businesses that will not allow their lots to be used when closed and develop a positive plan than oppose this project? Very disappointing.

[pickles]

Pete, why would Chris Lower want denial?

For the good of the community at large, I'm sure. I mean, it's not like this is a city that doesn't desperately need a good, mid-sized music venue owned and operated by people with a history of great success with such projects. What this city really needs, obviously, before anything like this should be considered, is more empty wasted lots along 23rd street for people to park their cars in.

Lower wants to keep his restaurants in the sweet spot of being just urban enough to claim the distinction while still being a place that suburbanites and out of towners can drive right up to and park in front of like a strip mall fast food place.

[Plutonic Panda]

Wow. I honestly think parking shouldn't even considered with something like this. If it is good enough, people will come. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I don't mind being in places with parking issues and with cars filled on every street and parking lot, it makes the area feel more alive, imo. I really hope this passes. What are the chances it doesn't?

[bluedogok]

Wow. I honestly think parking shouldn't even considered with something like this. If it is good enough, people will come. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I don't mind being in places with parking issues and with cars filled on every street and parking lot, it makes the area feel more alive, imo. I really hope this passes. What are the chances it doesn't?

The problem is the parking ends up on the streets in the residential areas adjacent to the main strip and creates other issues like people getting mugged on dark neighborhood streets headed back to their vehicles. That has happened in the hot areas of both Austin and Denver and there has been no real resolution to the problems. Most of those areas are not near light rail, especially in the case of South Congress and South Lamar in Austin where light rail doesn't exist. South Broadway in Denver has a light rail station at I-25 which is 3/4 to a mile south of the main business area. The areas developed organically because they were business strips in the past and most around here were developed in the early auto age. It is just hard to get the parking infrastructure developed at the same rate as the areas.

[dankrutka]

How big of a problem is this supposed impending mugging problem to begin denying new businesses to the district? Seems like a different solution to this hypothetical problem should be sought instead of blocking the development altogether, no?

[Pete]

Pretty sure this property falls within the urban boundaries where there are no parking requirements. This is how places in Bricktown and other districts can just put in a bar or restaurant and let people find parking on their own. Certainly true of the Plaza Distrcit, AA, Deep Deuce, Film Row, etc. Many, many businesses, bars and restaurants without dedicated parking in those areas.

I don't think they can deny this application due to lack of dedicated parking.

[catch22]

Pretty sure this property falls within the urban boundaries where there are no parking requirements. This is how places in Bricktown and other districts can just put in a bar or restaurant and let people find parking on their own. Certainly true of the Plaza Distrcit, AA, Deep Deuce, Film Row, etc. Many, many businesses, bars and restaurants without dedicated parking in those areas.

I don't think they can deny this application due to lack of dedicated parking.

Great news if so.

Parking spaces does not need to be the merit of a good or bad development. How it relates to the development from a planning perspective is much more important. And if it has none, that is even better.

[Rover]

If the parkers are respectful to the surrounding property owners, then there should be no problems. If they leave trash, park in the way of driveways, urinate on lawns, etc., then there will be problems. Without dedicated or available parking, it will be up to everyone to make it work. It won't be the parking that is or isn't the problem, it will be the behavior of the people involved.

[Rajah]

My home's curb is green lined on the parking survey and I welcome this development.

[catch22]

This will draw the same people who go to the Plaza District, which really has virtually zero dedicated parking. People park on the streets in the surrounding neighborhoods during large events. And it works.

Most people around here are very inexperienced about parallel street parking. Lots of room on the street is wasted by people not squeezing in tighter, or starting a row too far down the street, leaving not enough room to get an additional car in before or after the intersection. The more districts that embrace on street parallel parking, the more experienced our drivers will be at utilizing it and providing room for a maximum amount of cars in the on street parking.

We are simply scared to not park in a parking lot. That's all this comes down to. The people who live on the affected streets don't know how they will handle it.

At some point we just need to jump in with both feet, even if we are nervous about the unknown. It works in other cities and it can work here. But once we build that big surface lot on 23rd, the rest of the district will embrace those. This is pivotal.

[Pete]

It should be noted that the Blue Note does not have any dedicated parking.

[Teo9969]

I'm chuckling at the irony of Chris being worried about the parking when, outside of the music venue, his businesses will unquestionably gain the most from a music venue. All of his restaurants are perfect for before/after show crowds, and as long as he can keep people out of his parking lots on show day, he'll still have plenty of guests during the show hours.

The difference between Midtown and 23rd, is that Midtown is not particularly walkable, and Midtown Plaza Courts has a horrible parking situation with no where to go to walk places. 23rd has all the street side parking that doesn't exist for Midtown, and though there are impediments, is still one of the most walkable areas in all of OKC.

[BDK]

Thanks for posting the letter, Pete.

To me, the letter reads like Mr. Lower is concerned more with the effect the music venue will have on the prospects for redevelopment of the Tower Theater, rather than the parking issues.

[bluedogok]

If the parkers are respectful to the surrounding property owners, then there should be no problems. If they leave trash, park in the way of driveways, urinate on lawns, etc., then there will be problems. Without dedicated or available parking, it will be up to everyone to make it work. It won't be the parking that is or isn't the problem, it will be the behavior of the people involved.

Very true, that is what has created some of the problems in these districts in Austin and Denver. Although Austin really has an issue of people in those neighborhoods adjacent to these districts of the "I have mine" mentality, they move into these areas because they "like the vibe" and then proceed to complain about everything that inconveniences them in the least and try to get changes to make the area more suburban minded. Just like those people who recently bought condos downtown and then complain about the noise that is inherent with living in downtown.

This will draw the same people who go to the Plaza District, which really has virtually zero dedicated parking. People park on the streets in the surrounding neighborhoods during large events. And it works.

Most people around here are very inexperienced about parallel street parking. Lots of room on the street is wasted by people not squeezing in tighter, or starting a row too far down the street, leaving not enough room to get an additional car in before or after the intersection. The more districts that embrace on street parallel parking, the more experienced our drivers will be at utilizing it and providing room for a maximum amount of cars in the on street parking.

We are simply scared to not park in a parking lot. That's all this comes down to. The people who live on the affected streets don't know how they will handle it.

At some point we just need to jump in with both feet, even if we are nervous about the unknown. It works in other cities and it can work here. But once we build that big surface lot on 23rd, the rest of the district will embrace those. This is pivotal.

That is not a problem here in Denver, before my wife changed properties we drove through the Capitol Hill area whenever I dropped her off and it was packed tight on the streets because all those apartments did not have dedicated parking. Many times they are too tight as a co-worker has found out at times not being able to get his car out.

[ljbab728]

It looks like this is dead for now.

Zoning denied for proposed Uptown live music venue and bar | News OK

Zoning for a proposed live music venue and bar along NW 23 in Uptown was unanimously denied by the Oklahoma City Planning Commission over concerns about parking and the possibility the venue would allow underage patrons access toalcohol.

[bchris02]

It looks like this is dead for now.

Zoning denied for proposed Uptown live music venue and bar | News OK

Figures. This is Oklahoma City. I bet there were some sizable donations from NIMBYs in Heritage Hills to make this happen.

[Pete]

I think a lot of the concern centers around the assumption that if approved, it would hurt the Tower Theater revitalization efforts.

That's all fine, if Marty Dillon would actually do something now. Time to turn up the heat on him to redevelop or sell.

[BDK]

Pete, I know I keep asking you to post things I should be able to find on my own, but can you post the link or a scan of the ruling? I promise if you post a link, I'll be able to do it on my own next time. Give a man a fish/teach a man to fish, etc.

[Pete]

They haven't posted the minutes yet but you can see them discussing the project on the archived video, starting at 52:25:

SIRE Public Access