Dear Dallas

[Plutonic Panda]

I think both of you need to understand that this is an OKC board. Yeah its nice to keep tabs on what's going on there, but 99% of people come on here to find out what's going on in their community.

I will say this, as a Plano native myself, that DFW will always have a special place in my heart. But I am quite happy here and am frankly, too wrapped up in all that is going on in OKC to pay much attention to whats happening in Dallas. I have noticed a lot of Texans here in the past few years, including a few from my high school. It makes sense given that OK now has experienced net inmigration from TX for the past few years. Yet sometimes we can get into the "snotty transplant mode" of, well where I'm from we do it like this blah blah blah. I'm guilty of it myself sometimes.

And given the whole "Texas Pride" thing, we can do it a little worse than most. There's no malevolent intentions. But I don't think most Texas transplants realize how it comes across. One of my friends in Denver who I went to HS with in Plano says the same thing about TX transplants up there.

Now I am not saying that we cannot look down there to see what is done and maybe improve on some things. But we should look at ALL cities for inspiration. And what to not do as well. I like and miss TX but they are doing some things down there that are deeply flawed IMO. I mean, progressiveboy is quick to point out when a new company relocates to TX but does he ever link a story when TX gets blasted for its atrocious rankings in health and education?

I was born and raised here amigo

BTW, great post!

[dcsooner]

I think both of you need to understand that this is an OKC board. Yeah its nice to keep tabs on what's going on there, but 99% of people come on here to find out what's going on in their community.

I will say this, as a Plano native myself, that DFW will always have a special place in my heart. But I am quite happy here and am frankly, too wrapped up in all that is going on in OKC to pay much attention to whats happening in Dallas. I have noticed a lot of Texans here in the past few years, including a few from my high school. It makes sense given that OK now has experienced net inmigration from TX for the past few years. Yet sometimes we can get into the "snotty transplant mode" of, well where I'm from we do it like this blah blah blah. I'm guilty of it myself sometimes.

And given the whole "Texas Pride" thing, we can do it a little worse than most. There's no malevolent intentions. But I don't think most Texas transplants realize how it comes across. One of my friends in Denver who I went to HS with in Plano says the same thing about TX transplants up there.

Now I am not saying that we cannot look down there to see what is done and maybe improve on some things. But we should look at ALL cities for inspiration. And what to not do as well. I like and miss TX but they are doing some things down there that are deeply flawed IMO. I mean, progressiveboy is quick to point out when a new company relocates to TX but does he ever link a story when TX gets blasted for its atrocious rankings in health and education?

I agree 1,000% with this sentiment. I don't know of another metro area that so lathers over another. There are numerous Cities beside Dallas that OKC can inspire to be like. People who look to Dallas should focus that energy to getting involved and making OKC an even more attractive location for business.

[progressiveboy]

OK Folks First of all, as I have stated in previous threads, I am a native of OKC so like Panda, born and raised here. If you look at the first post from this thread it is saying "Why Dallas must you be so dominant"? Am I correct? So my intention is twofold, Dallas truly is becoming such a "dominant" city where it seems that weekly, they announce a move or new HQ coming to the city that it seems to be a city spreading like a massive wildfire with horrendous traffic and sprawl that takes you for miles and miles. I believe I have stated this in previous threads. Yes, I am quick to point out when a new company relocates to TX giving me further affirmation that it is great in one aspect, however, it is beginning to get out of control IMHO. Second, hopefully it provides inspiration to all the OKC movers and shakers of the community that they should be courting new companies because it deserves to be a vibrant, growing city. If OKC attracts high paying jobs then it attracts new wealth and brings in human capital who contribute to the community. Believe me, there are far superior cities to Dallas, my beloved city (LOL) NY, San Diego, Atlanta come to mind. Most importantly, OKC from a geographical point of view, sits right in the middle part of the country with three major interstates running through the city. From a logistical point, OKC should be taking away some of what Dallas has achieved!

[Plutonic Panda]

^^^^ Like

[soonerguru]

^^^^ Like

Good post, progressiveboy. Sorry if I came off a bit harsh. It's true that Dallas has many corporate relocations, but there are a lot of reasons for that, including a major airport.

My company has headquarters in an Eastern city and a regional office in Dallas that serves North Texas, Oklahoma, and Arkansas. What I've found interesting is that my regional Dallas corporate management LOVES OKC. They think our city is the bomb. They've actually hosted national meetings here because they like the ease of the hotels, the cost, and the things to do for a night or two in Bricktown.

But the odd thing is they have not hosted a regional meeting here. Why? Because the people from Arkansas cannot fly here direct and would have to connect through DFW.

Sometimes, it's just that simple. If you put a headquarters in Dallas you have a direct flight to all of your territories.

OKC cannot compete with Dallas and Houston as long as we don't have direct flights everywhere. But Austin and Portland are two cities off the top of my head that don't have that either and are doing just fine.

[soonerguru]

To add to my post above. I've heard lore about OKC and Dallas slugging it out at one time for which city got the airport. Not sure if the urban legend is true or not but Dallas obviously got the airport -- and we didn't -- and that itself was enough to doom our city to second-place status with Dallas.

Thinking about this is instructive as we consider other investment in transportation infrastructure. The point is that to be a world city we have to have this infrastructure. No ifs, ands, or buts. I believe (and at least hope) that our city leadership and our Chamber of Commerce now recognize and consider this point. To say again: WE CANNOT BE A BIG LEAGUE CITY WITHOUT A BIG-CITY TRANSPORTATION SYSTEM.

The time is now. We are ready. OKC now thinks of itself as a big city as do its citizens. Now we need to make the investment in a public transportation infrastructure that will propel us to the next level.

And we have an advantage. Are we behind other cities? Yes, absolutely. But we can learn from their successes and failures and build something that is more modern and technologically advanced.

[bluedogok]

Good post, progressiveboy. Sorry if I came off a bit harsh. It's true that Dallas has many corporate relocations, but there are a lot of reasons for that, including a major airport.

My company has headquarters in an Eastern city and a regional office in Dallas that serves North Texas, Oklahoma, and Arkansas. What I've found interesting is that my regional Dallas corporate management LOVES OKC. They think our city is the bomb. They've actually hosted national meetings here because they like the ease of the hotels, the cost, and the things to do for a night or two in Bricktown.

But the odd thing is they have not hosted a regional meeting here. Why? Because the people from Arkansas cannot fly here direct and would have to connect through DFW.

Sometimes, it's just that simple. If you put a headquarters in Dallas you have a direct flight to all of your territories.

OKC cannot compete with Dallas and Houston as long as we don't have direct flights everywhere. But Austin and Portland are two cities off the top of my head that don't have that either and are doing just fine.

Austin has some direct flights to markets important to the industry there, many of them are only provided by one carrier so times and pricing tends to be the issue there. I fly from Denver to Louisville about every two weeks, there are some direct flights (United) but the timing of them makes them not optimal. I typically fly through Chicago-Midway (Southwest) because the times they offer work out better for my meeting times in Louisville. Luckily our project is at the airport so I can cut the times closer since the project is on one side of the terminal and the AOB is on the other.

[Bellaboo]

Yes it does, however, Oklahoma will never have the business acumen and talent that Texas has. Oh by the way, looks like the wonderful city of Plano, my current place I live, just landed another major corporate relocation. See below... Texas seems to attract the "top" business talent.

NTT Data Inc. to move its North American HQ to Plano - Dallas Business Journal

Just a few years back, Grapevine gave Fleming 9 million to relocate. Fleming took the money, relocated and folded within a year and a half.

That's business accumen at it's finest.

All Texas does is 'buy companies' using a slush fund......J C Penny is about to fold, and they were the big relocation prize back in the eighties, at least they did last awhile though.


Like I said, they are attracting them with dollars...

[Teo9969]

Was in Dallas this week/end doing some work down at the Market Center. Rode the DART 3/4 days down there for Carrollton. Dallas gets a thumbs up from the DART. Good ridership...excellent way for people to not have to deal with traffic and get to their destinations. Intervals are very reasonable.

Drove down there today. Harry Hines Boulevard down by the WTC isn't even DRIVABLE much less walkable. Couldn't find a gas station convenient store after driving around for literally 15 minutes trying to find a coke. So much wasted space.

You know what Dallas really is? ...It's a really really really big current day OKC.

I hope by the time OKC gets to 2,000,000 we've fully departed from the horrible example Dallas has set.

[Teo9969]

btw...the Dallas WTC is deceptively MASSIVE. Looks like a 6 story building from I-35...It's 14 stories and has the footprint of a Mall anchor.

[dankrutka]

Was in Dallas this week/end doing some work down at the Market Center. Rode the DART 3/4 days down there for Carrollton. Dallas gets a thumbs up from the DART. Good ridership...excellent way for people to not have to deal with traffic and get to their destinations. Intervals are very reasonable.

I know an OKC board isn't the best place for this question, but maybe someone here knows... Anyway, does anyone know how easy/long it is to get from Dallas to Denton via public transportation? I'd have to take the DART and the A-train, right? I'm moving to the area in August and trying to figure out the possible living options.

[Teo9969]

I know an OKC board isn't the best place for this question, but maybe someone here knows... Anyway, does anyone know how easy/long it is to get from Dallas to Denton via public transportation? I'd have to take the DART and the A-train, right? I'm moving to the area in August and trying to figure out the possible living options.

DART Green Line Schedule: DART.org - DART Rail Green Line
DART Travel Times: http://www.dart.org/schedules/rail/t...mes03dec12.pdf
A-Train Schedule: 11413 A-train| DCTA


The northern most DART line to Downtown is ~40 minutes. And it looks like Denton to Green Line is 30 to 40 minutes. So an hour and a half roughly from Denton to Downtown...that's if you don't miss your trains or don't get there super early and sit on the train fro 10 extra minutes. It could easily be a 2 hour trip.

[Teo9969]

Also, no A-Train on Sunday.

[adaniel]

I know an OKC board isn't the best place for this question, but maybe someone here knows... Anyway, does anyone know how easy/long it is to get from Dallas to Denton via public transportation? I'd have to take the DART and the A-train, right? I'm moving to the area in August and trying to figure out the possible living options.

It depends on where you are going in Dallas. But as a native of that area, I wouldn't recommend it. At least not for daily use. As teo9969 states, you are looking at 3 hours/day commuting.

Not that its any of my business, but can I ask why would you live so far out? There are many transit oriented developments popping up along DART's main lines that would be much more practical.

[Teo9969]

Definitely noticed the TODs the entire way from North Carrollton to the Market Center when I was going back and forth.

It seems like the only nice area of Dallas is the Highway 75 corridor.

[dankrutka]

It depends on where you are going in Dallas. But as a native of that area, I wouldn't recommend it. At least not for daily use. As teo9969 states, you are looking at 3 hours/day commuting.

Not that its any of my business, but can I ask why would you live so far out? There are many transit oriented developments popping up along DART's main lines that would be much more practical.

I'd be working in Denton and I'd only have to go there 3-4 days per week. Most my friends live in the downtown Dallas area so I don't want to have to constantly drive there. I figured that I can do a lot of work on the ride, but 1.5-2 hours would be too long probably. I'm not interested in living in suburban areas. Looking for vibrant, urban areas so that rules out most suburbs along the line unless they have a vibrant, old main street (which it seems like most don't have).

[Teo9969]

What about Frisco? I was there Saturday night for a short bit and they seemed to have a nice set up down there.

EDIT: NVM...you're working in Denton.

[Plutonic Panda]

Was in Dallas this week/end doing some work down at the Market Center. Rode the DART 3/4 days down there for Carrollton. Dallas gets a thumbs up from the DART. Good ridership...excellent way for people to not have to deal with traffic and get to their destinations. Intervals are very reasonable.

Drove down there today. Harry Hines Boulevard down by the WTC isn't even DRIVABLE much less walkable. Couldn't find a gas station convenient store after driving around for literally 15 minutes trying to find a coke. So much wasted space.

You know what Dallas really is? ...It's a really really really big current day OKC.

I hope by the time OKC gets to 2,000,000 we've fully departed from the horrible example Dallas has set.

Dallas is a great example of what an awesome city is. I don't want to say I want to see OKC follow in Dallas's footsteps, as I want each city to grow and define itself in its own way.

There are a few things I'm not happy about Dallas doing, one of them is building a new toll road along the trinity river. Other than that, why is Dallas a bad example?

[Teo9969]

Dallas is a great example of what an awesome city is. I don't want to say I want to see OKC follow in Dallas's footsteps, as I want each city to grow and define itself in its own way.

There are a few things I'm not happy about Dallas doing, one of them is building a new toll road along the trinity river. Other than that, why is Dallas a bad example?

Because when I'm driving around a district that has as much traffic as a hospital and a Market Center in addition to several major hotels, at least 1 gas station ought to turn up in 15 minutes of driving. I remember staying at the Courtyard Marriott on Market Center Blvd the first time I ever went to Dallas and we had to travel like 4 or 5 miles up Stemmons to find somewhere to eat. The planning and development is ATROCIOUS in that area, truly worthy of shame for a city of 1.2M people.

So much along the I-35 corridor, particularly N of downtown (the main bit I've seen in that corridor) is extremely blighted. It's like 10th St. in OKC.

The 75 corridor is nice, but that highway at midnight looks like rush hour in OKC. Traffic there is truly a nightmare.

For a city with all the resources that it has available, it never ceases to amaze me how inconsistent and incoherent it is laid out. Spend some time in Downtown after 5 and in the Market Center area at any time. Drive around Dallas in general. There's nothing intuitive about the place at all.

I'm not saying OKC is by any means better...but Dallas is also 2x/5x the size of OKC. Houston, the hell hole that it is, is a much more enjoyable city than Dallas. Philadelphia is 10x the city that Dallas is. The short time I was in Austin, I thought it had much more character and quality than Dallas.

What about Dallas over, against *their* peer cities, do you think OKC should aspire to emulate?

[dankrutka]

What about Frisco? I was there Saturday night for a short bit and they seemed to have a nice set up down there.

EDIT: NVM...you're working in Denton.

My wife's family is near Fort Worth so that's another consideration. The only viable options seem to be Denton, Grapevine, and Dallas.

[Plutonic Panda]

Because when I'm driving around a district that has as much traffic as a hospital and a Market Center in addition to several major hotels, at least 1 gas station ought to turn up in 15 minutes of driving. I remember staying at the Courtyard Marriott on Market Center Blvd the first time I ever went to Dallas and we had to travel like 4 or 5 miles up Stemmons to find somewhere to eat. The planning and development is ATROCIOUS in that area, truly worthy of shame for a city of 1.2M people.

So much along the I-35 corridor, particularly N of downtown (the main bit I've seen in that corridor) is extremely blighted. It's like 10th St. in OKC.

The 75 corridor is nice, but that highway at midnight looks like rush hour in OKC. Traffic there is truly a nightmare.

For a city with all the resources that it has available, it never ceases to amaze me how inconsistent and incoherent it is laid out. Spend some time in Downtown after 5 and in the Market Center area at any time. Drive around Dallas in general. There's nothing intuitive about the place at all.

I'm not saying OKC is by any means better...but Dallas is also 2x/5x the size of OKC. Houston, the hell hole that it is, is a much more enjoyable city than Dallas. Philadelphia is 10x the city that Dallas is. The short time I was in Austin, I thought it had much more character and quality than Dallas.

What about Dallas over, against *their* peer cities, do you think OKC should aspire to emulate?

It's nothing but opinion and if traffic/ lack of gas stations is all you have against Dallas than that's cool. I think OKC should grow in its own direction, but Dallas is not a bad model. For 6+ million people, traffic is generally not that bad. The city is beautiful in my view and if you can't find character in it, than so be it. I can understand why urbanist wouldn't like, and that's just completely fine.

Also, as I've stated before, OKC shouldn't aspire emulate any city, it should do the best it can do and strive to make a name for itself, being unique and outstanding.

[bluedogok]

I have no desire to move back to Dallas but you have to understand the different areas of Dallas. 30-40 years ago the area around Market Center used to have a ton of restaurants and shops many years ago but business and more affluent residents left the area and moved to other parts of town leaving the area there to others. Demographic changes and crime has caused many businesses to relocate or close up in the area. The area that I lived in 20 years ago is much different now than when I lived there, it is just a fact of life in a big city. You can drive through any major metro area and find retail dead zones in areas that are struggling or blighted.

[dankrutka]

For 6+ million people, traffic is generally not that bad.

What? There lots of parts of DFW where the traffic is absolutely ridiculous.

[Teo9969]

My quick anecdotal evidence is that it took me 20 to 25 minutes to go this far:

https://maps.google.com/maps?client=...ie=UTF-8&hl=en

Like I said earlier in the thread...75 at midnight is like OKC rush hour.

[Plutonic Panda]

What? There lots of parts of DFW where the traffic is absolutely ridiculous.

Yes there are, but it's generally only during rush hour. For it's size, Dallas has fair traffic. Houston, Atlanta, L.A. to name a few, have insanely worse traffic than Dallas, and Dallas is in the same league or not far behind them. Houston traffic is almost 24/7 nightmare, Dallas is almost only during rush hour. Went to Dallas last week during a Saturday and drove all around the city, it was almost like OKC. There was one major backup on 635, but that was due to construction. I've seen Edmond traffic worse than what Dallas was on that particular Saturday. It gets bad, and again, there are almost 7 million people living in the metroplex, go to Houston and it is smaller than Dallas, if you go by MSA, and it is a million times worse. Houston has OKC rush hour traffic at 2am(ok that might be a little over stretch, but it's still bad!!!lol). I'm not trying to say Dallas has no traffic, but in terms of its size and population, I think to say Dallas has nightmarish traffic is a going a little far.