OKC has already exceeded homicide total from 2011

[1972ford]

As neighborhoods go from primarily owner occupied to primarily renter occupied homes more violent crimes occurs. As the homes in former good neighborhoods age and become property of slumlords because homeowners don't want to deal with remodeling outdated floor plans. The slumlords funnel the undesirables into these once nice neighborhoods these undesirables now have a new territory to fight for give it a few years it'll figure itself out it just sucks that as the retireies in these neighborhoods die off their descendants tend to sell off the properties. The vast amount of dilapidated.appartment complexes in the nw does not help the situTion there.

These undesirables are starting to get pushed away from downtown as well as growing in numbers they have to go somewhere just hope I'm close enough to a police station to keep them away from me

[Just the facts]

1972ford - I call that Operation Rolling Ghetto and the only way to stop is to stop the creation of sprawling new housing. It needs to be attacked on 2 fronts. First, municipalities need to stop approving subdivisions at the suburban fringe and focus on in-fill (which has the added benefit of maximizing the use of existing infrastructure which we already paid for). Second, we need to eliminate the financial benefit of creating more sprawl by ending the home mortgage deduction for new homes and undoing the 1949 Fair Housing Act and the 1956 Interstate Highway Act.

[soonerguru]

1972ford - I call that Operation Rolling Ghetto and the only way to stop is to stop the creation of sprawling new housing. It needs to be attacked on 2 fronts. First, municipalities need to stop approving subdivisions at the suburban fringe and focus on in-fill (which has the added benefit of maximizing the use of existing infrastructure which we already paid for). Second, we need to eliminate the financial benefit of creating more sprawl by ending the home mortgage deduction for new homes and undoing the 1949 Fair Housing Act and the 1956 Interstate Highway Act.

Since none of the above good ideas is likely to happen, how about a wild-eyed crazy progressive proposal?

Is there some way OKC or Oklahoma County can stimulate remodeling / improvement of older homes? Property tax breaks?

As someone who lives in an aging neighborhood that's not in a "hip" part of OKC, I see what 1972Ford sees happening. My nabe is very well attended for the most part, but it is butt ugly at the edges. I've been thinking for years that the city should do a MAPS for some beautification at least.

How can city policy lead to improvements of these neighborhoods? Code enforcement is one obvious solution. What about the out-of-state slumlords? How can OKC encourage more owner-occupied housing in these neighborhoods?

The homes in my neighborhood have "great bones," such as wood floors, brick, nice ranch layouts, etc., but many of them are smaller than what the typical OKC resident likes (mine is one of the larger ones). It wouldn't take much to make this neighborhood shine.

We do have a neighborhood association but the dues are laughably cheap and there isn't a budget for anything.

[Just the facts]

soonerguru - I know what you are saying and there are lots of things the City could do but those are being made ineffective by the actions of the federal government. The good news is the federal government is broke and over the next 5 years you will see those financial benefits go away. Ultimately, the problem will fix itself.

If you get some time pick up a copy of The Geography of Nowhere. It is available at B&N and most used book stores. It does a pretty good job of explaining how we got here, and how we are going to fix it.

[LakeEffect]

If you get some time pick up a copy of The Geography of Nowhere. It is available at B&N and most used book stores. It does a pretty good job of explaining how we got here, and how we are going to fix it.

Written in 1993... Didn't realize it was that old.

[Just the facts]

Written in 1993... Didn't realize it was that old.

Yep. Kunstler predicted the end of suburbia a little sooner that it is happening but he didn't take one thing into account, the desire of those in charge to practice bad economics. Who would have thought banks would loan money to people who they knew couldn't afford to pay it back or that government would sprawl themselves into bankruptcy. Also, from my observation owner-occupied is no great solution either. Most people I have seen don't have the desire or financial resource to properly maintain a home. They are better off renting. What we need are responsible landlords, either by choice or by force (rule of law).

[soonerguru]

soonerguru - I know what you are saying and there are lots of things the City could do but those are being made ineffective by the actions of the federal government. The good news is the federal government is broke and over the next 5 years you will see those financial benefits go away. Ultimately, the problem will fix itself.

If you get some time pick up a copy of The Geography of Nowhere. It is available at B&N and most used book stores. It does a pretty good job of explaining how we got here, and how we are going to fix it.

Well, one thing the Feds do for cities that is great is community development block grants. Could those be used? My thought is that these are strategically controlled by local leadership. How could cdbgs be used?

[soonerguru]

Yep. Kunstler predicted the end of suburbia a little sooner that it is happening but he didn't take one thing into account, the desire of those in charge to practice bad economics. Who would have thought banks would loan money to people who they knew couldn't afford to pay it back.

And who would have thought said banks would package and sell / buy those loans as investment grade instruments. Mind boggling.

[Midtowner]

To speak to the subject, I'm not sure many on here have much of a concept of the sort of culture which exists in some parts of the city. The culture of poverty is just vicious. It is anti-education, anti-rules and almost a caveman like survival mentality. Life and morality have so little value to some, or at least they do as most of us with educations and middle class upbringings understand things. To be exposed to these people, there's a certain sort of hopelessness, deadness inside that really you can't understand until you've been in a really bad part of town at around 2:30 A.M., and been approached at a gas station by someone very openly offering to sell you a chunk of crystal meth. It's pretty eye opening. So long as we don't address the cultural issues underlying these murders, we'll be treating the symptoms rather than the disease.

--as to what the disease actually is, that's way over my pay grade.

[Just the facts]

--as to what the disease actually is, that's way over my pay grade.

Maybe this will help.

Suburban Nation: The Rise of Sprawl and the Decline of the American Dream: Andres Duany, Elizabeth Plater-Zyberk, Jeff Speck: 9780865477506: Amazon.com: Books

The problems you identified above did not always exist. We created them, mostly by accident. The hard question is, do we have the ability and desire to say, oops - that didn't work like we thought it would.

Might I also recommend the documentary Urbanized (available on NetFlix - DVD and instant view).

[soonerguru]

To speak to the subject, I'm not sure many on here have much of a concept of the sort of culture which exists in some parts of the city. The culture of poverty is just vicious. It is anti-education, anti-rules and almost a caveman like survival mentality. Life and morality have so little value to some, or at least they do as most of us with educations and middle class upbringings understand things. To be exposed to these people, there's a certain sort of hopelessness, deadness inside that really you can't understand until you've been in a really bad part of town at around 2:30 A.M., and been approached at a gas station by someone very openly offering to sell you a chunk of crystal meth. It's pretty eye opening. So long as we don't address the cultural issues underlying these murders, we'll be treating the symptoms rather than the disease.

--as to what the disease actually is, that's way over my pay grade.

Poverty is a state of mind, in many ways. But if you've ever been broke and between jobs (as I was several years ago), it is incredibly stressful. Nothing like deciding whether to keep the lights on or not. Getting behind on bills. Late payments. If you need to buy a car your credit is wrecked so you have to pay a crapload of interest.

It's probably true that our poor are better off than the poor in the third world. But that doesn't change the immense stress and sense of hopelessness that people in this situation feel. And when it's intergenerational, it becomes institutionalized.

My parents gave me so much -- if not materially -- but what they gave me the most was a sense of confidence that I would be successful. People who have no models for success are deprived of that confidence.

Just a few thoughts. Have no idea how to solve the "disease."

[Dubya61]

Poverty is a state of mind, in many ways. But if you've ever been broke and between jobs (as I was several years ago), it is incredibly stressful. Nothing like deciding whether to keep the lights on or not. Getting behind on bills. Late payments. If you need to buy a car your credit is wrecked so you have to pay a crapload of interest.

It's probably true that our poor are better off than the poor in the third world. But that doesn't change the immense stress and sense of hopelessness that people in this situation feel. And when it's intergenerational, it becomes institutionalized.

My parents gave me so much -- if not materially -- but what they gave me the most was a sense of confidence that I would be successful. People who have no models for success are deprived of that confidence.

Just a few thoughts. Have no idea how to solve the "disease."

Blue Oklahoma:: Oklahoma Challenging Place For Upward Economic Mobility DocHoc (a local liberal blogger) would tell you that regarding hopes of escaping economic misery, Oklahoma is not too far from a third world country (my hyperbolic spin, not his). Not sure he knows how to solve the "disease", either.

[plmccordj]

Ha ha. I wondered how long it would take someone to bring up sprawl. I love this board, I really do but it is almost entertaining how you can throw out any subject and within minutes someone is blaming sprawl. It is my turn... The next subject is "childhood obesity". Just kidding guys.

[1972ford]

I know the city has the power to condemn and demolish a lot of properties that are home to undesirables and a place for juveniles to go and get sucked into that.sort of lifestyle HUD should not only build new homes but also rehabilitate existing homes to get the most bang for its buck. By surrounding section 8 housing should not beclumped togather in large patches but rather spread out to at least give youth the chance to make a better life for themselves. Instead of joining some street gang to avoid getting robbed beat up and harrassesed. The kids in the section 8 superblocks don't stand a chance in their current enviroment with no one to look up to and think to themselves I wanna be that guy other than addicts dealers and.gang members. Teachers in the schools that these superblocks feed are straight out scared of some of these children which is not very good when you want your.child.to learn. I know of cops that avoid some of the worse neighborhoods even though they are supposed to patrol the areas unless they are called to the area because of a 911 call

[Cocaine]

Maybe this has been a long time coming though. People forget that having a crappy public school system does have a negative effect on society. Even if their is an attempt to invest in public education well it's gonna be to late for some of the students that already went through the crappy part( maybe even their children if they have them very young). I realize this is just one part of the problem though and people who said drug trafficking may be on to another part of the problem.

[Just the facts]

Public schools are just like any other city infrastructure. If you keep spreading the people out you have to keep building new schools and transporting those kids to school gets more expensive. We waste a lot of money doing that over and over again.

[kelroy55]

Public schools are just like any other city infrastructure. If you keep spreading the people out you have to keep building new schools and transporting those kids to school gets more expensive. We waste a lot of money doing that over and over again.

What's the alternative? Forcing people to live in a certain area?

[Just the facts]

What's the alternative? Forcing people to live in a certain area?

Make people who prefer to live on the low density suburban fringe get thier kids to an existing school located in a higher density part of town. People can choose to live where they want but they shouldn't expect the rest of us to pay for it. We can't afford it any more.

If someone wants to live at N. 189th and Penn great, the nearest school is at 63rd and Penn. They need to get their kids there themselves.

[RodH]

What is the appropriate number of homicides for OKC? The DOK articles focused on the area near the Capitol but that area only accounted for about 20% of the city's total. And two of those are attributed to the police. It would be interesting to see a breakdown of each and everyone of the homicides. We tend to focus on the different, the exotic but the truth is that many of these deaths are too ordinary. They represent the culture and values of the community and are not "gang" related. Our culture is violent and some lives are valued far less than others. For example, the open-carry law, regardless of whether you are for it or against it, implies that the bearer has the authority and ability to determine the relative values of the lives they encounter. And the option to terminate life when they deem it appropriate. We can look at demographics and economics and spatial organization all we want but ultimately it comes down to individual attitudes forged in a culture that accepts the appropriateness of the use of deadly force.

[kelroy55]

We up to #94 Police report 94th homicide in Oklahoma City this year | NewsOK.com

[jedicurt]

whats weird is that homicide rates seem to be up everywhere
i seemed to recall an article somewhere about Houston having an increase in homicides aswell, but i wasn't able to find the article with a quick google search
old articles, but still

Chicago Homicides Outnumber U.S. Troop Killings In Afghanistan

Detroit Murder Rate Jumps 5.2 Percent, 2012 Summer Ends With 20 Homicides In 10 Days

[OKCTalker]

FWIW here's a story from the Weekend Wall Street Journal that reports how many gunshot victims are surviving due to advances in medicine, rapid transport to Level I trauma centers (like OU here in OKC), and experiences treating battlefield injuries.

In Medical Triumph, Homicides Fall Despite Soaring Gun Violence - WSJ.com

[MadMonk]

For example, the open-carry law, regardless of whether you are for it or against it, implies that the bearer has the authority and ability to determine the relative values of the lives they encounter. And the option to terminate life when they deem it appropriate.

That's a load of hogwash. Open carry (or closed carry for that matter) implies nothing of the sort. It does imply that a person has a right to defend themselves from a threat of mortal danger. Its doesn't give a person the right to play cop or to "terminate life when they deem appropriate".

You might read up on the law if you want to speak intelligently about it. Here's a good place to start.
http://www.ok.gov/osbi/documents/SDA...k_NOV_2012.pdf

[OKCTalker]

You people DO know that there's a thread already discussing open carry, right?

http://www.okctalk.com/current-event...penly-yet.html

[progressiveboy]

It is truly sad to see OKC spiral downward with their rampant crime. OKC was placed on the top ten list for violent crimes along with Houston and Atlanta. "I realize crime is everywhere," but OKC seems to have lost it's moral compass. Everyday, you hear of another dead body found in OKC area. We can blame it on society, violence on TV upbring etc... but I feel it just comes down to a lack of morals, integrity and bad character. OKC is full of meth labs, high DWI rates. Everytime I visit OKC it seems to be a more calluosed (sp?) town leading to lawlessness. Hell even Dallas "did not" make the list of top ten violent cities. Does anyone perceive that OKC is becoming a less civilized town?