High Density Living: Norman Edition

[Questor]

If I read the minutes correctly, the Planning Commission has now referred the issue to the City Council for a vote. So we'll see what happens in a future meeting.

And yes, I believe this development would replace the block directly behind Campus Corner. I'm not sure where eTec would move, I don't know if anything has been announced.

[dankrutka]

Norman is way overdue for a project like this. It'll fit in wonderfully in that area. If this is rejected than I give up on Norman.

[blangtang]

on the assessor webpage, it looks like its going to take up six different parcels, but they are still listed with various owners.

the eTec site is .6 acres and that site plan shows 1.5 acres. this has me confused...

[OKCbrew]

If this turns out as cool as I imagine it I'd seriously consider moving in. My wife and I live on the southeast side of Norman and we constantly pine for the ability to just walk out the door to a shop or a cafe or a pub. She's especially unaccustomed to not having much walkability or public transportation options being from Cape Town.

Related thought: I was jealous of places even in Africa that have immensely better public transportation options, walkability and urban fabric than most of the OKC area, though there are most definitely trade offs.

Does anyone know if these flats are all rentals or will there be some for sale as well? Guess I could contact B3 Development Group to see if they can offer any info. I'm kind of psyched!

[Rover]

Related thought: I was jealous of places even in Africa that have immensely better public transportation options, walkability and urban fabric than most of the OKC area, though there are most definitely trade offs.

Seriously? Have you ever been to Africa?

[OKCbrew]

Seriously? Have you ever been to Africa?

Yessir. Maybe I should say Southern Africa in particular. My wife lived in Cape Town when I met her, and it was nice dense suburbs, mixed use everywhere, shops/cafes/pubs, and quite a decent rail system that allowed me to get all over town. Even the smaller cities and towns in the region keep it nice and cozy. But like I said, there are big trade-offs like crime, unemployment and corruption. It has made me think though, that since the political and economic situation is much better here in central Oklahoma as opposed to Southern Africa, it's a shame that we struggle to scrape together the urban culture, density and services that seem to come so naturally to them despite the hardships.

I do have to say though I am excited about the way things are happening in Norman and the rest of central OK.

[OKCbrew]

Did anyone make it to the council meeting last night? I wanted to go but I couldn't leave the office on time. Lame!

[Geographer]

Did anyone make it to the council meeting last night? I wanted to go but I couldn't leave the office on time. Lame!

I just watched some portions of the video, from what I gathered they didn't do anything? Idk I didn't have much time so I skipped towards the end of the meeting video.

[OKCbrew]

Norman Transcript: Controversial high-rise, high-density residential proposal on indefinite hold » Headlines » The Norman Transcript

Sounds like the zoning issue has been put on indefinite hold until a more comprehensive study/plan is in place for the whole of central Norman with OU being more involved. I guess it sounds promising for the long run but I always have a hard time reading between the lines on this stuff.

[Geographer]

Norman Transcript: Controversial high-rise, high-density residential proposal on indefinite hold » Headlines » The Norman Transcript

Sounds like the zoning issue has been put on indefinite hold until a more comprehensive study/plan is in place for the whole of central Norman with OU being more involved. I guess it sounds promising for the long run but I always have a hard time reading between the lines on this stuff.

It could be good, could be bad. It just depends on how long the indefinite hold (moratorium) lasts. I don't believe developers will completely scrap their plans by the time this hold is lifted and it makes sense that the city would want to have a good ordinance in place. However, I am skeptical on just what that ordinance will look like and what it will allow. Im afraid there's too many misconceptions and misinterpretations on exactly what high density residential IS. It isn't HIGH RISE, 3-4 stories is NOT high rise. They are looking at this all the wrong way.

It also functions completely differently than apartment complexes or cul-de-sacs of duplexes and I am afraid they're looking at this development as an apartment complex. It functions completely differently (obviously). We shall see.

[HangryHippo]

It could be good, could be bad. It just depends on how long the indefinite hold (moratorium) lasts. I don't believe developers will completely scrap their plans by the time this hold is lifted and it makes sense that the city would want to have a good ordinance in place. However, I am skeptical on just what that ordinance will look like and what it will allow. Im afraid there's too many misconceptions and misinterpretations on exactly what high density residential IS. It isn't HIGH RISE, 3-4 stories is NOT high rise. They are looking at this all the wrong way.

It also functions completely differently than apartment complexes or cul-de-sacs of duplexes and I am afraid they're looking at this development as an apartment complex. It functions completely differently (obviously). We shall see.

Exactly! Man, I agree with everything you said. I'm excited by the addition of OU's resources in the Institute for Quality Communities, but it's Norman, and I would not be surprised to see this indefinite hold last for a long, long time. And why the hell they keep referencing a 6 story building as a high rise is beyond me! It's not even close, but by calling it that, they certainly help get the residents fired up about the idea of a high rise invading their neighborhood.

[OKCbrew]

It isn't HIGH RISE, 3-4 stories is NOT high rise.

That's exactly what I was thinking as I was reading previous articles. I feel like this development would be considered low-rise at most.

[Geographer]

Exactly! Man, I agree with everything you said. I'm excited by the addition of OU's resources in the Institute for Quality Communities, but it's Norman, and I would not be surprised to see this indefinite hold last for a long, long time. And why the hell they keep referencing a 6 story building as a high rise is beyond me! It's not even close, but by calling it that, they certainly help get the residents fired up about the idea of a high rise invading their neighborhood.

Indeed, to me, the language is what is killing this project and getting the citizens fired up. It's unfortunate that it has been called high density. It should be called something like "City Mixed Use Centers" or something like that.

[Geographer]

That's exactly what I was thinking as I was reading previous articles. I feel like this development would be considered low-rise at most.

Well, in other large cities it would probably be mid-rise. You see mid-rise buildings all along main street and many arterial streets that are right next to low rise single family homes. (No one would complain if they lived next to Bob Stoops' high rise home, eh?). I just think this has been framed completely the wrong way. It adds SO MUCH to this area, sigh.

[HangryHippo]

We are in perfect agreement on this. I know it probably seems like semantics, but calling this a high-rise development has cast this important discussion in a very unflattering light. High-density is important for the future growth of cities, where resources will be in shorter supply and costs will continue to rise. However, high-rises are not the only way to develop higher densities and that's where part of the problem here is, at least in my view. By calling this a high-rise, they've done little besides rile up the NIMBY crowd, that if given their way, would never see Norman change. They miss the sleepy old college town, but Norman is now Oklahoma's 3rd-largest city and needs to start acting like it. Norman should have planned for things like this years ago, but per usual, they're behind the times. Call this building mixed-use, like you've suggested, and this building probably doesn't face quite this sort of backlash.

With the ideas from OU's institute hopefully guiding design and aesthetics, it will be these kinds of projects that will provide the kind of desirable, yet manageable growth that Norman should want.

[Geographer]

We are in perfect agreement on this. I know it probably seems like semantics, but calling this a high-rise development has cast this important discussion in a very unflattering light. High-density is important for the future growth of cities, where resources will be in shorter supply and costs will continue to rise. However, high-rises are not the only way to develop higher densities and that's where part of the problem here is, at least in my view. By calling this a high-rise, they've done little besides rile up the NIMBY crowd, that if given their way, would never see Norman change. They miss the sleepy old college town, but Norman is now Oklahoma's 3rd-largest city and needs to start acting like it. Norman should have planned for things like this years ago, but per usual, they're behind the times. Call this building mixed-use, like you've suggested, and this building probably doesn't face quite this sort of backlash.

With the ideas from OU's institute hopefully guiding design and aesthetics, it will be these kinds of projects that will provide the kind of desirable, yet manageable growth that Norman should want.

Be sure to attend Dan Burden's talks this Friday. Livable Lindsey Street Workshop with Dan Burden- Eventbrite

[Geographer]

I wonder if anyone has brought up Boulder, CO during these discussions at city council? Boulder is of similar size, they have a university, and are near a metropolitan area. They have so, so, so, so many of these mid-rise multi-use developments throughout the city. Boulder is a great city. It's walkable and the buildings wonderfully relate to the street. Seriously, go have a look at some google street views all around Boulder. Of course no city is without its issues, it's by no means a perfect place but I think it's a great model for what Norman COULD be if we properly frame this discussion in the right light and point towards a model for what we want. If people frame it as high rise, people will think large dumb-bell tenements from 1920's NYC...BUT if you show them pictures of places like Boulder...well then you've got an entirely new discussion

[Geographer]

This isn't "directly" related to more intensive use of development (which is what this thread is about). BUT...this afternoon at 4:00 at Legends II on Lindsay Street in Norman is a workshop entitled "Lindsay Street Opportunities & Best Practices"...about the future envisioning of Lindsay Street (mediated by Dan Burden). The session this morning dealt with different examples of streets from around the country and the types of buildings and development that those types of streets bring. It's important for Lindsay, which could be an amazing street/district/corridor/village for more intensive land uses (which is the part that's relevant to this thread). So if you're in Norman...COME! It'll be a good time of discussion and knowledge.

Here's a link Livable Lindsey Street Opportunities Presentation- Eventbrite

[BG918]

I don't see a need to delay this project. If it was right in the core of Campus Corner, maybe, but it's replacing existing apartments and parking lots further north. I agree a comprehensive plan would be good, something that sets strict rules for urban development in the area, like building to the sidewalk, all parking either in a garage or below ground for large projects, certain streets must have mixed-use functions, etc. For example if this project was further south on Asp it should probably have retail space to enhance and extend Asp Ave. through Campus Corner. On Buchanan St. north of White it isn't as important, and should be a residential front but with entrances on the sidewalk i.e. stoops and patios.

And a plan for Lindsey St. is long overdue. That street has the potential to be a much nicer gateway, and hopefully this presentation is a good first step to making that a reality. Part of that includes making it 4 lanes from Berry to Jenkins, no left turn lane, bike lanes and large sidewalks with a row of street trees and new streetlamps down the entire length. Red brick paver crosswalks as you get into campus would be a nice touch.

[BG918]

College Station doesn't seem to have a problem building high density mid-rises by the A&M campus...
A Johnny Manziel lure? Texas A&M takes luxury level to another level - CultureMap Houston

[HangryHippo]

College Station doesn't seem to have a problem building high density mid-rises by the A&M campus...
A Johnny Manziel lure? Texas A&M takes luxury level to another level - CultureMap Houston

I've yet to visit a college town that didn't have a more cohesive feel and higher density living options near the campus than what OU has. Even Stillwater is getting in on the action, but Norman continues to plod along. It's a damn shame.

[Geographer]

I've yet to visit a college town that didn't have a more cohesive feel and higher density living options near the campus than what OU has. Even Stillwater is getting in on the action, but Norman continues to plod along. It's a damn shame.

Totally agree. It's mind boggling that there are city council members that say Norman isn't "big enough" for denser developments. That's literally what my (former) city councilman told me, quite disappointing.

[HangryHippo]

Totally agree. It's mind boggling that there are city council members that say Norman isn't "big enough" for denser developments. That's literally what my (former) city councilman told me, quite disappointing.

Yep, I've been told the same thing. It frustrates the hell out of me because Norman has a TON of potential. It's a college town that's actually pretty close to a major city so we can reap the benefits of that, but there's enough going on in Norman that it could really do well with the right leadership and focus. Instead, it seems like Norman is doing everything it can to turn into a series of housing subdivisions. LAME. I loved OU, but I haven't missed Norman at all since I left. It's missing the boat completely on development.

[Geographer]

Yep, I've been told the same thing. It frustrates the hell out of me because Norman has a TON of potential. It's a college town that's actually pretty close to a major city so we can reap the benefits of that, but there's enough going on in Norman that it could really do well with the right leadership and focus. Instead, it seems like Norman is doing everything it can to turn into a series of housing subdivisions. LAME. I loved OU, but I haven't missed Norman at all since I left. It's missing the boat completely on development.

Yeah, hopefully the new lindsey street scape won't end up being terrible and will spur medium-density development and maybe then we'll start seeing the kind of development that's found pretty much everyone except here. They're even doing it in Lubbock!!! (Look just east of the football stadium on google maps: https://maps.google.com/maps?q=lubbo...gl=us&t=h&z=18 )

EDIT: I love the way the Cottages was created in Lubbock as well, it doesn't create a super block because there are through streets that go all the way through the development. This is what I wish the Norman cottages looked like. https://maps.google.com/maps?q=lubbo...gl=us&t=h&z=18

[BG918]

Downtown and Campus Corner should be full of high density developments. I would suggest writing the council and mayor advocating for the zoning to allow these projects, and also to the OU Institute for Communities (Blair Humphreys) as they are assisting the city and promote walkable mixed use development.