Western Avenue District

[Spartan]

They may be included in the streetscape.

WHICH I would really like to know why that hasn't begun yet...

[wschnitt]

I have not been following this closely. Will you please fill me in on the streetscape?

[Pete]

That streetscape plan was approved in 2009 and extends from 63rd to 36th:

http://www.okc.gov/AgendaPub/cache/2...2071446106.PDF

[metro]

Broken link

[Pete]

This one will work:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/westernavenue.pdf

[Spartan]

Wow, all that for only $5.6 million?

I love the roundabout at Grand, I think that will work very well, especially with Balliet's anchoring the traffic circle on the west.

[BoulderSooner]

some the of work around Grand will be moved up and increase in scope as a result of the deal between chk/local neighbors/ and councilmen shadid's request to improve traffic in that area

[Larry OKC]

Bike racks are sorely needed on Western.

The linked PDf posted by Pete indicates there will be

15. Black iron Bicycle Racks
Approximately five bicycle racks will be stratigically placed in high traffic areas....

Wow, all that for only $5.6 million?

I love the roundabout at Grand, I think that will work very well, especially with Balliet's anchoring the traffic circle on the west.

Great, another intersection I get to avoid at all costs...

[Martin]

i'm sure that a traffic circle will look nice... but with the volume of traffic in that area, i'm a bit concerned whether or not this will work well. -M

[BDP]

i'm a bit concerned whether or not this will work well.

It would work great, as long as Larry does indeed avoid it at all costs. : )

[Spartan]

i'm sure that a traffic circle will look nice... but with the volume of traffic in that area, i'm a bit concerned whether or not this will work well. -M

The only maneuvers that it actually effects considerably are left turns from E-bound Grand onto Western and left turns from W-bound Grand onto Western, due to the high angle of that turn, you'd have to actually go around the traffic circle. All other maneuvers, due to the low angle or just going straight, won't actually be as effected as you might think by putting in the roundabout.

Nonetheless I think it will cause drivers to slow down and greatly enhance sense of place.

[Larry OKC]

It would work great, as long as Larry does indeed avoid it at all costs. : )

Hey, I resemble that remark...LOL

if the objective is to decrease traffic, it will work because many folks will avoid it

[BDP]

Hey, I resemble that remark...LOL

if the objective is to decrease traffic, it will work because many folks will avoid it

Ha. I think our traffic managers must use the same logic with our stop lights.

I think I just hate stopping when there is no good reason to be stopped. Circles help keep you moving right along and our lights seem to stop you arbitrarily for an arbitrary amount of time. But you are right, if people can't figure them out, it may not be a wise thing to do in this situation. We can probably get away with replacing four way stops with them, but you get more than three cars in a circle and it begins to blow people's minds here.

[Martin]

if people can't figure them out, it may not be a wise thing to do in this situation.

and therein lies my concern... western handles more than a little traffic. on top of that, the plans seem to indicate that this roundabout would have an inner and outer loop... i'd think such a layout has a possibility of being pretty confusing to okc motorists. -M

[Spartan]

I think you guys are passing by the chicken and egg scenario without realizing. With more traffic circles in OKC, in more prominent locations, I think it's safe to say that OKC motorists will gain more familiarity with the concept. Right now it's just a novelty one encounters driving along NW 10th..

[Spartan]

To be honest, it would make a little more sense to have the traffic circle south of 50th where the road is 1-lane, but this location probably works too due to the angle of the intersection.

[ljbab728]

Yes, in places where they are prevalent, they are just fine and do wonders to make intersections safer and actually cheaper to maintain.

But you guys already know I am a fan of them because we already had fun "debating" them on another thread. As for the Western Avenue District I am glad one is a part of the project.

=)

Yes we have debated traffic circles in other threads and everyone probably knows that I'm not a fan after experiencing their wonders in many European locations. I'll refrain from posting the "European Vacation" traffic circle video this time though. LOL

[Larry OKC]

But isnt it amazing that OKC had traffic circles (or whatever you want to call them) years ago and then for SAFETY REASONS removed them...now somehow they are magically safer and returning...

We were talking about pedestrian railings and defining space in some other thread and how it makes things safer, yet there is a city somewhere over in Europe that has taken the opposite approach and removed curbs, raised sidewalks and all sorts of barriers and they claim that it has made things much safer because no one knows what they are doing anymore so everyone takes it very cautiously. No matter if they are waling or driving etc.

[Spartan]

So traffic engineers from the 60s and 70s are now the experts on urban design?

[Pete]

But isnt it amazing that OKC had traffic circles (or whatever you want to call them) years ago and then for SAFETY REASONS removed them...now somehow they are magically safer and returning.

There is a big difference between the old Classen Circle and the new round-a-bouts.

The latter are pretty darn efficient and easy to navigate; they are being installed all over L.A. and work quite well. And of course, are a mainstay in many parts of Europe.

The former was HUGE and confusing (see aerial below):

[BDP]

But isnt it amazing that OKC had traffic circles (or whatever you want to call them) years ago and then for SAFETY REASONS removed them...now somehow they are magically safer and returning...

We were talking about pedestrian railings and defining space in some other thread and how it makes things safer, yet there is a city somewhere over in Europe that has taken the opposite approach and removed curbs, raised sidewalks and all sorts of barriers and they claim that it has made things much safer because no one knows what they are doing anymore so everyone takes it very cautiously. No matter if they are waling or driving etc.

Which makes a interesting point. Both a circle and a traffic light are only as safe as the drivers that use them. Blaming the accidents and incidents on the configuration and not the drivers doesn't make a whole lot of sense. They removed circles for safety reasons and, guess what, accidents still happen. So now they say circles are safer and put it in a few, but, guess what, accidents will still happen and people will still want to blame the circle instead of the users. One is probably not inherently safer than the other. If everyone followed the rules, both systems would have equally successful safety records.

What's funny is that your example seems to show that if people don't understand or know the rules, they seem to take responsibility for their safety by being more cautious instead of just trusting the rules to make them safe.

[OKCTalker]

So traffic engineers from the 60s and 70s are now the experts on urban design?

In the 1940s the Barnes Dance was considered the best way for pedestrians to cross the street at an intersection. I don't know that any city uses it any longer.

(The "Barnes Dance" occured when stop lights turn red in all directions, allowing pedestrians to cross the intersection in any direction including diagonally. Credited to traffic engineer Henry Barnes.)

[potsy]

by the way the "circle" is called a roundabout.

[Spartan]

Traffic circle is the technical term. I usually bounce back and forth between the two terms. Roundabout just always strikes me as something that Americans would say after spending a week in London.

[Spartan]

As I said before, they are not the same. Not nearly the same.

Angle of approach, max speed, pedestrian design, and curb curtains (to accommodate emergency vehicles), all have been added or changed. They are simply not the same animal.

Feel free to PM me your video! =)

I will say that I have some pedestrian concerns about this planned traffic circle on Western, given that the design calls for outer islands, which will create a fairly insular zone for automobile traffic.