Ford Center improvements up for March 4 vote

[ChamberCyn]

My email address is creid@okcchamber.com

[Doug Loudenback]

For those who want to help with the campaign - I work at the Chamber and we are gearing up for a big effort and we are going to need the help of everyone on this board who is committed to keeping OKC's momentum going. We will begin contacting/coordinating volunteer activities around mid month, so keep the faith - you don't see us yet but there is prep work in motion. Feel free to email me your name and contact info and we will be back with you in just a few days!

Great! It's done!

[TStheThird]

I have also emailed to help.

[betts]

I am not assuming this will pass. This whole "MAPS for millionaires" talk is an attempt to spread disinformation, and it could well be successful. First of all, we don't even know if we'll get the Sonics, it may well be the Hornets, or sadly, could be no team at all, so I seriously doubt this is related to demands made by Clay Bennett. What I'd like people to realize is that this bond issue is NBA driven, not Sonics or Hornets driven. I challenge anyone who's attended any event at the Ford Center to say it is state of the art, or even attractive, as it currently stands. These are improvements the arena needs anyway, IMO. The practice facilty, it is true, is not a necessary improvement. But, it's the price of doing business with the NBA, and the decision by New Orleans not to build the planned practice facility, is a tacit admission that the Hornets are probably not staying. Their legislature had already put aside $20 million to build it, as was part of their contract with the Hornets. But, I checked, and the practice facility would indeed be owned by the city,and the use by the Sonics or Hornets or whomever would be part of a lease agreement. Presumably, the city would be able to use it for other events as well, on days it was not being used by the team.

So, people need to understand that they are voting yes or no on the NBA, just as Mick Cornett said, and the benefit of voting yes is that our Ford Center will be improved and brought up to a level appropriate for a city of this size.

[Saberman]

I am not assuming this will pass. This whole "MAPS for millionaires" talk is an attempt to spread disinformation, and it could well be successful. First of all, we don't even know if we'll get the Sonics, it may well be the Hornets, or sadly, could be no team at all, so I seriously doubt this is related to demands made by Clay Bennett. What I'd like people to realize is that this bond issue is NBA driven, not Sonics or Hornets driven. I challenge anyone who's attended any event at the Ford Center to say it is state of the art, or even attractive, as it currently stands. These are improvements the arena needs anyway, IMO. The practice facilty, it is true, is not a necessary improvement. But, it's the price of doing business with the NBA, and the decision by New Orleans not to build the planned practice facility, is a tacit admission that the Hornets are probably not staying. Their legislature had already put aside $20 million to build it, as was part of their contract with the Hornets. But, I checked, and the practice facility would indeed be owned by the city,and the use by the Sonics or Hornets or whomever would be part of a lease agreement. Presumably, the city would be able to use it for other events as well, on days it was not being used by the team.

So, people need to understand that they are voting yes or no on the NBA, just as Mick Cornett said, and the benefit of voting yes is that our Ford Center will be improved and brought up to a level appropriate for a city of this size.

Something that's gotten lost in all this is the fact that if we don't get an NBA team some of these improvements won't be made. That being said, some of these improvements are needed to attract more events that we haven't been getting. These improvements will make the FC a world class facility that would be the crown jewel of the Bricktown area.

If we build the practice facility it could also be used for high school events, or and added facility for colleges to use when we host tournaments (i.e. NCAA, Big 12, or event NAIA). All of these bring recognition and tax money to the OKC area. It could also be used to have basketball camps for kids. So I think we can say these improvements are not just for millionaires.

The possibilities are endless.

[BDP]

I agree. Framing the debate as improvements for NBA only is misguided and misleading. There are benefits to having an updated arena that's competitive with the best in the country. We have to remember that markets with which we are in direct competition, Dallas and Kansas City, have or will have two of the best in the country. The Ford Center as is doesn't come close to those facilities, but it should with these improvements. We can have tea and discuss our subjective opinion of the looks of these arenas, but what matters at the end of the day are the facilities and amenities they offer. These improvements seem to add as much real working and tangible improvements as it does aesthetic improvements and, again, at a total cost of less than or, in the case of Dallas's facility, much less than most in the country.

I do agree, however, with a recent gazette op-ed which pointed out that, as the owners of the Ford Center's possible major league tenant, Bennett, McClendon, et al. stand to gain a lot of personal wealth from taxing the public, even after they have spent thousands of dollars running campaigns against political candidates they felt were in favor of too much taxation. Emotionally, I do feel that their hypocrisy should be shoved back in their face, but pragmatically I want to see Oklahoma City compete in this century on the basis of quality of life, not just cheapness of living, and I think world class facilities downtown are a key element to this. Hopefully, if this group should end up as the direct financial benefactors of such improvements, their political conscious will compel them to give back as much as they gain and not by way of the perceived tangential economic benefit, but in real dollars to more accessible civic improvements and infrastructure where they can.

While that's obviously just hope, I still think that Oklahoma City needs to continue to build on its success and continue to raise its profile, regionally and nationally, and this is a concrete way of doing that, even if some local guys with less the perfect integrity make some money off it. At least this would be one situation where the city can benefit from some good ole boy action instead of it keeping us down.

[betts]

I agree with everything you said, BDP except that "as the owners of the Ford Center's possible major league tenant, Bennett, McClendon, et al. stand to gain a lot of personal wealth from taxing the public." (recognizing it was the writer of the Gazette piece who said this, not you). It's not that I think Bennett, McClendon are completely wonderful, or that I necessarily agree with them politically, but they probably don't stand to gain much personal wealth at all from taxing the public in this instance. No one is going to give them a $40 million dollar guarantee, like they did with George Shinn, and he made about $10 million dollars a year while he was here, which again, is a lousy return on the $400 million they will spend to purchase the team and bring it to Oklahoma City. If the team has a bad season, or the economy is bad, they may make no money or lose money. Seven teams were in the red in 2006, the Knicks by $40 million.

The Ford Center improvements, while designed to show the NBA we will support a team, and probably to influence the Board of Governors to approve Bennett's request to relocate, are not such that they will generate much cash for the owners. The practice facility will be owned by the city, and the only benefit the owners will gain is from not having to build it themselves.

Although there is the argument that the owners will recoup a large amount of the money they've either never made or lost if they sell, there's no definite guarantee that will happen. Team prices have been through the roof lately, but as we've learned from the housing market, one should never count on appreciation. And, you cannot always sell the team. David Stern allowed Heisley, the owner of the Grizzlies, and Paul Allen, owner of the Trailblazers to put their teams on the market, but they were only allowed to sell to someone who would keep the team local. Neither found a buyer with that proviso in place.

So, I believe this vote should not focus on the politics of the owners, nor the theoretical money they will or will not make, but whether having an NBA team is good for Oklahoma City and will help it move forward, will help it separate itself from the other cities of similar size and amenities without a team. I believe that is the case personally.

[BDP]

Well, I can't honestly say that the Gazette article really claimed that, but it was insinuated in some way and it certainly didn't point out that there is also an extreme amount of risk for the owners.

But whether they have a net operating profit or not, these improvements and certainly the practice facility mitigate a lot of their risks. If, in fact, they ever do have a net operating profit, it will only be made possible by the existence of the Ford Center, either as is or with these improvements. And any appreciation will be facilitated by these projects and any depreciation will be mitigated by them. So, at the end of the day, they will be directly benefiting from tax payer money in a way and to a degree that only those with the best sweet heart deals can match. Even Bass Pro has to pay the city back according to the terms of the financing.

It really is modern day conservatism at it's finest. That is to say that it's liberalism with a middle man. We are promised jobs, economic growth, and a better life through taxation, but only if a company or industry benefits first. However, it's mitigated a little bit in my mind in this situation, because it will still be a public asset. It will have direct benefit beyond Bennett's basketball company. And, it is still within the realm of possibility that any NBA lease will be structured in such a way that we will get the money back. Hopefully, that is the case, but obviously none of those terms have been discussed, or at least not made public in any way.

I support the measure, but I am not unrealistic about what's going on. And, for those who didn't read it, the point of the Gazette's editorial was simply to encourage people like Bennett to end their "tax consumption" rhetoric in light of the demands they've place on Seattle and the efforts of Oklahoma City to tax itself to help their business. This as an overall higher purpose of encouraging better debate leading to more prudent tax policy that serves all citizens in a more just manner. I can't really argue against that, even as I do support this proposal.

[julieriggs]

Info on the Big League City campaign for arena improvements is here: Greater Oklahoma City Chamber - Legislative Action - Big League City

Add Big League City to your MySpace friends! MySpace.com - Big League City - 36 - Male - OKLAHOMA CITY, Oklahoma - www.myspace.com/bigleaguecity

Thanks!
~Julie

[Doug Loudenback]

Now if I can just figure out how to do MySpace so I can comment there ...

... and Julie, how can I get/download a copy of that hiphop tune in the MySpace place ... very cool!

[betts]

OPUBCO Studios

Here's the link to the video by Mayor Cornett and Larry Nichols

[Doug Loudenback]

I also saw that the video could be legally embedded in one's internet stuff, e.g., blogs, websites, and it actually plays more smoothly (on my computer, at least) after doing that ... see Doug Dawgz Blog: Ford Center Initiative

BTW, I did manage to get the MySpace stuff figured out ... it's a pretty neat place. And, yes, the music background is not hip hop, it is rap (nicely done).

[CuatrodeMayo]

nm

[HOT ROD]

Awesome!!

[betts]

There will be opposition. Who's this Steve Hunt who's trying to organize opposition? He called our public officials "hoodlums", which is an interesting approach.

[Karried]

Voting Information

To register to vote, download a Voter Registration Form and contact the Oklahoma County Election Board at (405) 713-1515.
Oklahoma County Election Board
4201 N. Lincoln Blvd
Oklahoma City, OK 73105

[metro]

Voting Information

To register to vote, download a Voter Registration Form and contact the Oklahoma County Election Board at (405) 713-1515.
Oklahoma County Election Board
4201 N. Lincoln Blvd
Oklahoma City, OK 73105

Good info Karried, however I believe the deadline to register to vote for the upcoming elections was last week. I could be wrong though.


When to Register
You may submit your voter registration application form at any time. However, voter identification cards cannot be issued during the 24 days prior to an election. If your registration is received by the county election board during the 24 days before an election, you will not receive your voter identification card until after the election.
If you will become 18 during the 60 days before an election, you may apply for voter registration between 25 and 60 days before the election.

[Doug Loudenback]

There will be opposition. Who's this Steve Hunt who's trying to organize opposition? He called our public officials "hoodlums", which is an interesting approach.

Maybe he doesn't like the music ... here's a link to the mp3 file for the NBA rap tune ... http://www.dougloudenback.com/misc/nbarap.mp3 ... feel free to copy, use, distribute, etc.

[SouthsideSooner]

n/m

[shunt]

Cornett wants for Oklahoma City to stand out or shall we say as is often said "Put Oklahoma City on the map!" by bringing an NBA team here. I don't have a problem with 14 year old emo kids hanging out at the mall with their "peeps" who feel you stand out and receive attention by being trying to be like everyone else, but for adults like us it is truly unacceptable. Especially when you are calling for public funding for the purpose of standing out by being like everyone else.
I spoke at city council on the matter yesterday, shortly after a fellow who was calling for improved regulations on massage parlors and whatnot. Going along with his theme, I think that the only happy ending Clay Bennnett and friends should receive are the ones they give to themselves.
For too long, Bennett and his likeminded pals have been calling for "personal responsibility!" and for people to "pull themselves up by their bootstraps", well as many have said I think it is time that they try these things themselves. And yes, I understand the big picture of all this.
David Stern makes $8,500,000 a year, and I don't think lives in the real world. He is very much a part of this swindle, and apparently has pressured Cornett into backing this thing OR ELSE! I think that after the ref cheating nightmare and some other things, if this angle can be properly played then he and his buddies will discover that they dont need another PR nightmare. They don't need the people of Oklahoma City showing the nation that they won't stand for this...as have a lot of other cities who have stood up against this greed over taste, profit over people model which has existed for far too long.....

I think that if there is a no vote, which I am going to ensure there is, that the team will still come here. They may have to wait till 2010 when the lease ends up there... I asked Cornett if he thought a yes vote would sway the judges decision and he looked at me like I was from Mars...what he doesn't understand is that if there is a no vote, then the judge might rule in favor of the lease not being broken as I am sure he is a compassionate man, doesn't want the players homeless, out on the street begging for nickels or whatever.....

Now, if Bennett and friends..who say they care about Oklahoma threaten not to bring there team here because we won't pay for it...it will truly show that they don't care about OKC and we can turn the tables and call for divestment from their holdings....who wants to support these scumbags if they don't care about us? I sure dont....

anyway...lots to be discussed. I will be putting on a town hall style meeting next month...ck out Home - Oklahoma Media Awareness Alliance soon for details

[betts]

David Stern makes $8,500,000 a year, and I don't think lives in the real world. He is very much a part of this swindle, and apparently has pressured Cornett into backing this thing OR ELSE! I think that after the ref cheating nightmare and some other things, if this angle can be properly played then he and his buddies will discover that they dont need another PR nightmare. They don't need the people of Oklahoma City showing the nation that they won't stand for this...as have a lot of other cities who have stood up against this greed over taste, profit over people model which has existed for far too long.....

I think that if there is a no vote, which I am going to ensure there is, that the team will still come here. They may have to wait till 2010 when the lease ends up there... I asked Cornett if he thought a yes vote would sway the judges decision and he looked at me like I was from Mars...what he doesn't understand is that if there is a no vote, then the judge might rule in favor of the lease not being broken as I am sure he is a compassionate man, doesn't want the players homeless, out on the street begging for nickels or whatever.....

Now, if Bennett and friends..who say they care about Oklahoma threaten not to bring there team here because we won't pay for it...it will truly show that they don't care about OKC and we can turn the tables and call for divestment from their holdings....who wants to support these scumbags if they don't care about us? I sure dont....

I think you have a lot to learn about the NBA, shunt, and I think you think Oklahoma City has far more influence than it does. In what way would us turning down a bond issue for a paltry $120 million be a PR nightmare for the NBA? We will be the laughingstock of all major cities and sports writers, who know that every other city with an NBA team has spent far more and been glad to keep their team. The Sonics can stay in Seattle, or move to Kansas City or Las Vegas if we don't pass the bond issue. There is NO way David Stern will move a team here if we can't even fix up an arena that needs improvement, regardless of whether we get a team or not. If he allows the Sonics to leave Seattle, a city three times as big as us, with a media market three times as big, and a forty year history in that city, simply because they won't either build a new arena or refurbish their inadequate arena, there is no way on earth he'll move a team here if we won't do the same. The NBA in no way needs Oklahoma City. Kansas City has a $300 million dollar arena sitting empty, and Las Vegas is building one. He'll put a team either of those places before he allows a team in an insignificant city that won't show they'll support a team.

Of course a "yes" vote won't sway the judges decision. The judge rules on the law, and is required to be impartial. What either city votes on or doesn't vote on is immaterial. The question is how the wording in the lease with Seattle is interpreted, and whether the lease demands specific performance or is a simple lease.

I also think you have no understanding of the Board of Governors, the NBA and Clay Bennett's place in the hierarchy. In sports parlance, Clay is a rookie. Essentially, David Stern decides, and the Board of Governors votes on his recommendations. Clay Bennett can crawl into the meeting on his knees and in sackcloth begging to move the team, and if David Stern thinks it's a bad idea, it will not pass. Here's a quote today from George Shinn, who has been in quite a few board of governors meetings in his lifetime regarding a vote on moving the team from Seattle: "I’ll have one vote if it ever comes to that, and we’ll usually follow the lead of the commissioner.” Ask George Shinn why he's losing his shirt in New Orleans, and he'll tell you it's because he made David Stern mad.

So, you're free to vote no, but there will be no NBA team here if you do. Don't tell people we need to call David Stern's bluff, because we will lose.

[shunt]

What nice guys they sound like! I see why you want them here in our fine city!

Seriously, look at the studies..Brookings Institute or whatever....there is very little economic impact made by these things...and everyday I learn something new about how this just is not a good idea. People act as if an NBA team is the only thing in existence that can help a city becoming something worth anything. Hello? Why can't we get some serious efforts going on bringing big conventions and stuff here? I myself almost got the '08 national conference for media reform to come here... a 3 day event with 7500 people..easily. Thats 1/14th of an NBA season with hotels totally full and restarants full breakfeast, lunch and dinner....come on!

OKC's big businesses (chesapeake, devon etc....) who put a lot of money into things like an NBA franchise (and pass the costs on to consumers) aren't a gurantee for the long term....if they ever struggle, will the team be able to continue to do well? Hardly. And yes, I know that Stern is a tough ol' bird, and in a lot of ways is a clone of Alan Dershowitz but I don't think he is a total raving lunatic...and therefore if he sees that it would be a good thing for them to come here, he might allow it, otherwise he wont and then perhaps we should accept that...maybe?!?!?!?

[OU Adonis]

If this vote fails then I will be truly embarrassed to be associated with Oklahoma City. Yes the embarrassment will fade with time, but our time for getting a NBA team will be long gone.

[shunt]

Here is Allen Iverson's opinion on the publicly funded stadium.

[Doug Loudenback]

I think that if there is a no vote, which I am going to ensure there is ...

Impressive statement of your perception of your own importance, shunt. While there certainly are lots of different points of view on this, I think that you are the 1st who has posted here who either has or claims to have so much individual power or importance.