Living wage and/or minimum wage

[gjl]

Finding a job isn't that simple. When I was last looking I had over 100 applications through indeed alone, indeed also shows you how many of your applications were even looked at. under 20% were looked at, I got 3 calls, one was a mass interview with 30 people in a position that definitely sounded like it was going to take advantage of the people who made it through to get the job. My friend with her Masters degree just spent the last 8 months trying to find something, over 70 applications, less than 10 interviews, and now she just landed something two days ago. It's not like you can actually walk in and get hired like we could in the 1900s. I only found my current spot because I was recommended by a friend. Job hunting is a complete nightmare these years. So many people have to take minimum wage because they can't wait around 8 months to find the right spot. I lost multiple employees in the past because they had a second or third child and could no longer afford to work due to child care costs. They made over $13 an hour in 2018. All of these breakdowns are for if your life is perfectly fine outside of being poor, but that's not reality for most people. Medical events can bankrupt anyone, or like me, cause someone to pay hundreds a month for the ability to learn nothing of what caused your issue and see a dr for less than 5 total minutes in 3 days.

Over 100 applications for what pay scale/range? Same question for the person with the masters degree?

[GaryOKC6]

Moving the goalposts there. GaryOKC said "no one pays less than $15". I said "here's someone that pays less than $15." Sure, agreed that 9 > 7.25 but that's not relevant to the point being made in that moment.

You wanna trust the whims of a corporation to treat people right have at it.

Actually what I said is "I do not know many businesses paying under 15.00 an hour" That is a big difference.

[GaryOKC6]

Worked a union factory job my whole adult life. Our raises and benefits were clearly spelled out and negotiated in every contract. I know some people don't like unions and they do have their down sides but they provided me with a very livable blue collar income, good benefits, and a pension, all while allowing the company we worked for to make a nice profit.

The thing is, you showed up every day. (I assume) I talk with hundreds of companies who tell me they hire someone and then they never show up. These companies all pay over 15 an hour. Work ethic is not what it used to be.

[bamarsha]

I used bls.gov, dol.gov, and the CPS surveys on census.gov. A quick search shows the numbers I found on those sites have been cited in other posts such as those made by Oklahoma Business Voice and Oklahoma Policy Institute.

As I said, I apologize for not being more explicit in stating that "minimum wage" as used throughout my entire post always referred to "Federal Minimum wage". And just to be extra clear, when I referred to "at or below minimum", that should be read as "at or below the Federal minimum wage" and "Federal Minimum wage" should be read as "the current Federal Minimum wage at the time of this comment (in the amount of $7.25 per hour before taxes), as set out in in law by the Fair Minimum Wage Act of 2007 of the supplemental appropriation bill (H.R. 2206) signed by President Bush on May 25, 2007".

I provided OK specific numbers as related to federal minimum wage and some nation-wide numbers related to federal minimum wage. It is hard to tell if certain numbers are significant when viewed in isolation - as you said you can "make the same set of data say two (or more) completely different things." In an effort to be more transparent, I included national numbers that compared groups of states, at least one group of which included Florida, but I did not specifically compare any individual state against Oklahoma. Nor did I use any state and an example that Oklahoma should/ should not follow. That specific example comparing Florida state wages was entirely concocted and brough up by YOUR post. My comments had yet to mention State Minimum wages at that time.

ETA: Also, I never claimed you misconstrued anything. I thanked you for pointing out how someone could misconstrue my post and acknowledged that I could have been more clear. You have twice now indicated that I could have been more clear, and I have agreed with you multiple times at this point. Would you like me to edit my prior post? If so, I would be happy to accommodate.

Thanks for the sources… maybe I will have time to look into that data before long (not likely today, though).

When mentioning Florida, I will admit I just used that state because I was too lazy to type all the other “South” locations you mention (all with potentially different minimum wages). My bad there.

Sorry about the misconstrued misunderstanding… to me, that sounded accusatory directed at me without explicitly stating me. That’s how it normally goes on sports message boards, Myspace, Facebook, X, etc.… and even occasionally on this site.

What I would like to eventually discover is if that 1.4% at or below minimum wage do, in fact, include the tipped workers or not. If not, where do those workers actually exist in this state (because I can’t find them with quick searches… admittingly, not comprehensive searches that include small mom & pop stores in the panhandle or something to that extent).

[Ginkasa]

Actually what I said is "I do not know many businesses paying under 15.00 an hour" That is a big difference.

Oh my gosh, yes, those are the specific words you stated and I misquoted your specific words. Great, good on ya for correcting me on that. That doesn't change anything about the way the conversation proceeded. The comment you just quoted was in response to gjl trying to throw a gotcha about $9 being more than the Federal minimum wage of $7.25 which wasn't relevant at all since my $9 reference was particularly to you in regards to companies paying less than $15. So, yes, you are right in your statement that I did not get your words exactly right but other than that statement it has no bearing on anything else in this conversation.

[Rover]

The thing is, you showed up every day. (I assume) I talk with hundreds of companies who tell me they hire someone and then they never show up. These companies all pay over 15 an hour. Work ethic is not what it used to be.

Most unions try to make sure their members show up and are capable of doing the jobs they are hired for. A properly run union is an ally to the owner on many things. They just make sure the owners don't unfairly use their leverage against individuals and that each worker doesn't have to "negotiate" their own deal with the company. A union can help set boundaries for both sides. Our unionized factories had better attendance than the non-union ones and were generally more productive.

[Dr Beard Face]

Over 100 applications for what pay scale/range? Same question for the person with the masters degree?

My search was pretty wide as I got more desperate, I was mainly trying to stick between $40-50k, but was applying to places offering less if it seemed like a spot I could move up in. My friend was looking for anything over $15/hour because she lives at home and didn't need more/ is looking to get her foot into places, she landed at $20/hour.

[gjl]

So $20/hr or 41.6K per year with a Masters Degree Please tell me that is not the norm. Our son was making $18/hr as a cook at Cattlemans.

[OKCRealtor]

^

Yea you can pretty much go get entry level at Costco, Amazon, lot of places and start near $20/hour these days.

Plenty of side/gig jobs in this modern economy as well to make extra money that didn't use to exist.

Bar/restaurants couple nights a week make a few hundred extra.

Maybe minimum wage should just be completely eliminated all together.

[GaryOKC6]

Oh my gosh, yes, those are the specific words you stated and I misquoted your specific words. Great, good on ya for correcting me on that. That doesn't change anything about the way the conversation proceeded. The comment you just quoted was in response to gjl trying to throw a gotcha about $9 being more than the Federal minimum wage of $7.25 which wasn't relevant at all since my $9 reference was particularly to you in regards to companies paying less than $15. So, yes, you are right in your statement that I did not get your words exactly right but other than that statement it has no bearing on anything else in this conversation.

There is a huge difference between "nobody " pays 15.00 and hour and "I don't know of anyone". And yes, it did have bearing. I was replying to you not gil. You should get it correct if you are going to quote someone. don't put words in my mouth and try to turn it around on me.

[Dob Hooligan]

The thing is, you showed up every day. (I assume) I talk with hundreds of companies who tell me they hire someone and then they never show up. These companies all pay over 15 an hour. Work ethic is not what it used to be.

I am old. I do not believe work ethic is not what it used to be. Old people have been complaining about the work ethic of young people for as long as there have been young people.

[Ginkasa]

There is a huge difference between "nobody " pays 15.00 and hour and "I don't know of anyone". And yes, it did have bearing. I was replying to you not gil. You should get it correct if you are going to quote someone. don't put words in my mouth and try to turn it around on me.

You got it boss.

[Jeepnokc]

I am old. I do not believe work ethic is not what it used to be. Old people have been complaining about the work ethic of young people for as long as there have been young people.

My experience running a business for the last 28 years has been that the younger generation isn't willing to put the time or effort into their positions. I have had much better luck hiring older employees than young ones. I have never had any of my older attorneys sell their ritalin pills out of my parking lot like one of my younger ones was doing. We have a merit based compensation plan in addition to their salary, the older ones are doing very well but they put the effort in versus just showing up.

[Rover]

My experience running a business for the last 28 years has been that the younger generation isn't willing to put the time or effort into their positions. I have had much better luck hiring older employees than young ones. I have never had any of my older attorneys sell their ritalin pills out of my parking lot like one of my younger ones was doing. We have a merit based compensation plan in addition to their salary, the older ones are doing very well but they put the effort in versus just showing up.

Ive been in business for 50 years. It wasn’t ritalin, but I've had alcoholics miss work plenty, and potheads miss meetings, show up late, etc. Allthese kind of problems have existed forever, not just the “new” generation. It’s fashionable to denigrate every younger generation. But, they also are more prepared with tools we don't have, etc.

We need to quit stereotyping and deal with individuals. We need to quit denigrating young workers when often it is older managers who are ill prepared to actually understand their motivations and how to manage people. There are good and bad young workers and good and bad older workers. Each loves to blame the other. Its the way we are… categorize, separate, and chastise.

[OkieBerto]

Ive been in business for 50 years. It wasn’t ritalin, but I've had alcoholics miss work plenty, and potheads miss meetings, show up late, etc. Allthese kind of problems have existed forever, not just the “new” generation. It’s fashionable to denigrate every younger generation. But, they also are more prepared with tools we don't have, etc.

We need to quit stereotyping and deal with individuals. We need to quit denigrating young workers when often it is older managers who are ill prepared to actually understand their motivations and how to manage people. There are good and bad young workers and good and bad older workers. Each loves to blame the other. Its the way we are… categorize, separate, and chastise.

At my place of work it is all ages and all types that don't show up or are late or even sleep in their office. The people who are in management that do this do not get fired because their job is deemed more important and the company does not want to pay a higher wage to a new person coming in. If a younger person in a lower level job shows up late, anyone above the age of 50 starts complaining about that person. They rarely say anything about the Manager that sleeps at his desk with the door wide open.

[GaryOKC6]

I am old. I do not believe work ethic is not what it used to be. Old people have been complaining about the work ethic of young people for as long as there have been young people.

I am kind of with you on this, but it is the main complaint that I hear for employers. I sometimes think all you have to do is show up every day and you are ahead of the game.

[GaryOKC6]

You got it boss.

It is all good sir.

[Ginkasa]

My experience running a business for the last 28 years has been that the younger generation isn't willing to put the time or effort into their positions. I have had much better luck hiring older employees than young ones. I have never had any of my older attorneys sell their ritalin pills out of my parking lot like one of my younger ones was doing. We have a merit based compensation plan in addition to their salary, the older ones are doing very well but they put the effort in versus just showing up.

Some others have made some great points in response to this. You mention running a business for 28 years and that it is the "younger generation" that is slacking. The way I read it is that for 28 years it has always been that "younger generation", but over that span of time what that younger generation actually is changes entirely. The "older employees" you're hiring now are the younger generation of yesterday or even, depending on how you're delineating between "younger" and "older, may not even have been around 28 years ago.

So what I'm really hearing you say is that older people are more mature, more responsible. Maybe they have reasons (family, bills to pay, etc.) to maintain a stable job beyond just having a great work ethic. Younger people, naturally, are less mature and less responsible. They are less likely to have families or a lot of debt they have to repay. They're more likely to be able to "bounce back" if they lose a job unexpectedly. They have different priorities. This is normal, I think. Generally speaking, you're more naturally going to find maturity and responsible ("work ethic") in older folks versus younger folks, regardless of what time period you're looking at.

Now you didn't say this, but possibly you're also thinking about yourself. Maybe when you were part of the "younger generation" you worked hard and had a good work ethic and were overall mature and responsible. Me too! I've maintained steady employment since I was in high school. I've only worked at two companies and at both I've started entry level (relatively) and worked my way up to leadership positions. So, speaking for myself, I think it would be very easy for me to look at people younger than I am and compare them to how I was at that age and think how I had a better work ethic than they do now. But the reality is, I wasn't the norm. Not in my teens or early-mid 20s at least. Plenty of my "age peers" were slacking off, making poor choices, flippant with whatever employer they had at the moment. Now I'm older and those folks are doing just fine. They found their maturity.

So, I don't know, maybe I'm off. Maybe in your company it is specifically Gen Z (assuming that's the "younger generation" for you) and no other generation that has caused you troubles.

[Jeepnokc]

Some others have made some great points in response to this. You mention running a business for 28 years and that it is the "younger generation" that is slacking. The way I read it is that for 28 years it has always been that "younger generation", but over that span of time what that younger generation actually is changes entirely. The "older employees" you're hiring now are the younger generation of yesterday or even, depending on how you're delineating between "younger" and "older, may not even have been around 28 years ago.

So what I'm really hearing you say is that older people are more mature, more responsible. Maybe they have reasons (family, bills to pay, etc.) to maintain a stable job beyond just having a great work ethic. Younger people, naturally, are less mature and less responsible. They are less likely to have families or a lot of debt they have to repay. They're more likely to be able to "bounce back" if they lose a job unexpectedly. They have different priorities. This is normal, I think. Generally speaking, you're more naturally going to find maturity and responsible ("work ethic") in older folks versus younger folks, regardless of what time period you're looking at.

Now you didn't say this, but possibly you're also thinking about yourself. Maybe when you were part of the "younger generation" you worked hard and had a good work ethic and were overall mature and responsible. Me too! I've maintained steady employment since I was in high school. I've only worked at two companies and at both I've started entry level (relatively) and worked my way up to leadership positions. So, speaking for myself, I think it would be very easy for me to look at people younger than I am and compare them to how I was at that age and think how I had a better work ethic than they do now. But the reality is, I wasn't the norm. Not in my teens or early-mid 20s at least. Plenty of my "age peers" were slacking off, making poor choices, flippant with whatever employer they had at the moment. Now I'm older and those folks are doing just fine. They found their maturity.

So, I don't know, maybe I'm off. Maybe in your company it is specifically Gen Z (assuming that's the "younger generation" for you) and no other generation that has caused you troubles.

I think this is a great summary. A lot of it is immaturity. They don't appreciate the risks and future which they will as they get older. Why else would you risk your law license not to mention a felony charge for selling drugs within 1000 ft of a school to make $20 selling a ritalin pill?

[Dob Hooligan]

I think this is a great summary. A lot of it is immaturity. They don't appreciate the risks and future which they will as they get older. Why else would you risk your law license not to mention a felony charge for selling drugs within 1000 ft of a school to make $20 selling a ritalin pill?

Now that I am old, I realize many of the idiots I knew when we were 25 are still idiots in their 60s. If they are still alive.

[Bill Robertson]

I am kind of with you on this, but it is the main complaint that I hear for employers. I sometimes think all you have to do is show up every day and you are ahead of the game.

Pretty close in a lot of instances I know of. At my wife's warehouse if you show up sometime during your shift and on most days your a top employee. Unfortunately this is rare and they go through employees like crazy.
We have gone to Chili's every Friday night for many years and meet at the bar with a bunch of similar regulars. 20 years ago we knew most of the floor servers even though we sat at the bar. Now the average life of a floor server is a couple weeks. And on weekends Chili's is packed so I would think tips would be pretty good. We also go to On The Border weekly. Same story. Floor servers last a couple weeks on average.
I'm getting old and I'm sure in a lot of things I think the grass was greener in the old times but I think people used to care about their jobs more than they do today.

[BoulderSooner]

I sometimes think all you have to do is show up every day and you are ahead of the game.

sadly this is very true

[Teo9969]

Ive been in business for 50 years. It wasn’t ritalin, but I've had alcoholics miss work plenty, and potheads miss meetings, show up late, etc. Allthese kind of problems have existed forever, not just the “new” generation. It’s fashionable to denigrate every younger generation. But, they also are more prepared with tools we don't have, etc.

We need to quit stereotyping and deal with individuals. We need to quit denigrating young workers when often it is older managers who are ill prepared to actually understand their motivations and how to manage people. There are good and bad young workers and good and bad older workers. Each loves to blame the other. Its the way we are… categorize, separate, and chastise.

Agree with all of this.

I will add that corporate structures are also strangling the relationship with younger workers. I think younger workers are absolutely willing to work hard, but they struggle with the juxtaposition of rigid structures and lack of clear expectations.

I was showing my almost 5 year old how to pump gas the other day at OnCue where there was the 3 nozzle setup (E-85, E-10, Pure Gas) and 5 buttons to press, 3 of which were for pure gas. I generally use the bottom grade of pure gas so I asked him to press the middle button since the the first 2 were for the other nozzles. He pressed the middle option and I start fueling and look over 5 seconds later to see he picked the middle RED option (so middle grade pure gas). I was frustrated and even told him "that's not the middle one".

A day or so later I thought about it and felt bad for not owning my poor communication earlier. I haven't apologized to him because honestly not sure how much he would even register what has happened and I have surely chided him for worse.

That's how the structure of corporate America (and in some ways our society as a whole) is designed to operate and younger workers simply don't put up with that garbage, nor should they have to. I did not set a clear expectation, but the person who paid the price of a negative interaction was my son and if I were in corporate America, my approach would have been upheld by the hierarchical structure and subordination standards the often operate implicitly rather than explicitly.

We think we communicate well, but we don't.

[Teo9969]

I think this is a great summary. A lot of it is immaturity. They don't appreciate the risks and future which they will as they get older. Why else would you risk your law license not to mention a felony charge for selling drugs within 1000 ft of a school to make $20 selling a ritalin pill?

And the workforce is younger than ever now that most Baby Boomers are retiring.