$465 million in aid to Oklahoma includes lightrail!!!

[danielf1935]

Light Rail Tranist in Oklahoma--"If you build it, they still won't ride it".

[soonerguru]

Light rail will never work in this area

Wow. You're a real know-it-all. Do you have any facts to back your boast? Admit it. You're obsessed about seeing this fail, even though you don't live in OKC. Thanks but no thanks.

Not to mention, we had rail transit in Central Oklahoma and it worked quite well for forty years.

Your know-it-all boasts are opinions presented as fact, nothing more. And you're a hater. Not a good combination for intelligent discussion.

[soonerguru]

Furthermore,

You didn't address key facts in my commentary:

1. Rail transit corridors create density.

2. Haters like yourself made similar know-nothing comments in cities from Portland to Dallas, only to be proven wrong by strong ridership and increased density.

Suburbs like Norman would benefit from this. In Dallas, people in the 'burbs pooh-poohed DART in the same sneering, derisive way you do. Now, those same 'burbs are begging and paying to have extensions to DART built to their towns.

You only see the present in your arguments, not the future. If you want a world of even more highways and even more sprawl, and longer commute times, and more pollution, then by all means, let's keep the status quo.

However, if you believe OKC and Norman and other areas of Central Oklahoma will eventually outgrow their transportation infrastructure, then you will at least OPEN YOUR MIND to the fact that some rail should be built alongside the billions being spent on highways to serve people who don't want to live in the city but continue to work here.

[danielf1935]

Furthermore,

You didn't address key facts in my commentary:

1. Rail transit corridors create density.

2. Haters like yourself made similar know-nothing comments in cities from Portland to Dallas, only to be proven wrong by strong ridership and increased density.

Suburbs like Norman would benefit from this. In Dallas, people in the 'burbs pooh-poohed DART in the same sneering, derisive way you do. Now, those same 'burbs are begging and paying to have extensions to DART built to their towns.

You only see the present in your arguments, not the future. If you want a world of even more highways and even more sprawl, and longer commute times, and more pollution, then by all means, let's keep the status quo.

However, if you believe OKC and Norman and other areas of Central Oklahoma will eventually outgrow their transportation infrastructure, then you will at least OPEN YOUR MIND to the fact that some rail should be built alongside the billions being spent on highways to serve people who don't want to live in the city but continue to work here.

Soonerguru, why are you so shallow that you resort to name calling. I have the right to voice my veiws against light rail, just as you have the right to voice yours for it. My mind is open, your's are as well, it's just that you have on rose colored glasses, LIGHT RAIL WILL NOT WORK!!!!!!!

[southernskye]

Light Rail Brings Housing Values Up in Denver

While home values in the rest of the region decline, homes near Denver's light rail system have experienced an increase in values over the past two years.

"Homes near light-rail stations along the southeast line, which opened in November 2006, have increased by an average of nearly 4 percent over the past two years, according to an analysis by Your Castle Real Estate. But the rest of the Denver market declined an average of 7.5 percent."

"The closer a home is to the station, the more its value increases, according to the Your Castle analysis. Homes less than a half-mile from a station increased an average of 17.6 percent, while those 1 1/2 to 2 miles away increased just 0.1 percent on average.

Planetizen

[GWB]

Soonerguru, why are you so shallow that you resort to name calling. I have the right to voice my veiws against light rail, just as you have the right to voice yours for it. My mind is open, your's are as well, it's just that you have on rose colored glasses, LIGHT RAIL WILL NOT WORK!!!!!!!

This is the way liberals operate. If you don't agree with them they resort to name calling. I can't count how many times I was called a racist from people just because I didn't vote for THE ONE. That's the way they operate. Disagree with them, you're a racist, hater, bigot and so on. Remember, these are the people who preach tolerance. I've got a name for them too--hypocrites.

[sgray]

Soonerguru, why are you so shallow that you resort to name calling. I have the right to voice my veiws against light rail, just as you have the right to voice yours for it. My mind is open, your's are as well, it's just that you have on rose colored glasses, LIGHT RAIL WILL NOT WORK!!!!!!!

Danielf, do not change the subject. Soonerguru highlighted a very good point. In the last several days you have made some wild claims that you are so sure about, yet you provide no facts to back up your statement. You have posted NO supporting facts, therefore your views carry no weight. All you say is "IT'S BAAAAD! IT'S GONNA FAIL! WASTE OF MONEY! OOoooooo..." You know, the FUD-type of stuff. So, unless you are going to step up to the plate and defend your statements, you cannot place blame on someone who is just pointing out your lack of backing facts. Understand?

Here's a good fact you can take with you: Less than 1% of the Oklahoma stimulus package, if approved, would ever be for mass transit. Only $4 million (maximum) was to go for that MWC project. Period. The remaining bulk of that package is strictly for more asphault roads! Talk about hypocrisy!

This is the way liberals operate. If you don't agree with them they resort to name calling. I can't count how many times I was called a racist from people just because I didn't vote for THE ONE. That's the way they operate. Disagree with them, you're a racist, hater, bigot and so on. Remember, these are the people who preach tolerance. I've got a name for them too--hypocrites.

GWB, the fact that you seem to have been able to draw ties to a particular poster's political affiliations based on a poster's comment (where they simply pointed out that the comment still, to-date, has no basis or supporting facts) doesn't make you look too intelligent. In fact, you are directly name calling. Again, talk about hypocrisy!

I have to admit, while some of us have had good, constructive debate over the last few days on this thread, the only thing I've seen of you is the alleged "name calling". I see no name calling, and have to say that I, too, am getting tired of having to scroll through the FUD just to get to the good debate posts.

Danielf is, through his posts, painting himself as "know-it-all" and has seriously discredited any and all of his statements due to the ever-so-present lack of ability to post supporting facts.

Please either post something constructive and appropriate or don't post at all.

This is constructive debate, not drama class! Or the political section for that matter.

[sgray]

So yeah, back to the debate.

Soonerguru, you are right about the density thing. We have seen that happen in every area where mass transit has been done halfway decent. We've actually seen the results and it is not just hearsay. Indeed, with us being a spread out city, we should expect to see things start to pack in tighter...the way it should be. You know, here is some interesting food-for-thought. Without bashing automobile travel too hard, we are definitely a unique city in that there is really no other city of our size and spread, that doesn't have mass transit at all. Having said that, it's easy to see how the city has spread so rapidly without running into the density issue, you know? Driving further and further out has really not been a problem because folks are already in their car. Obviously, that works okay until the population grows enough (like it has been doing) and density starts to take place, then all of a sudden it is no longer so easy to get around only by car.

With regard to the way some folks see this as a waste of money...it's interesting to watch that story from PBS. You are right about Dallas. If it was gonna go up in smoke somewhere, I would have expected it to there. They are automobile-crazy like we are here...and it has been such a great success there. Look at how fast they are expanding now, compared to when they started. I think what a lot of folks don't realize is that a mass transit solution has to be crafted for each and every city to meet it's needs. Some folks seem to think that mass transit in OK means that we would be implementing the same system as other cities. Obviously, that is not the case.

[sgray]

In Dallas, people in the 'burbs pooh-poohed DART in the same sneering, derisive way you do. Now, those same 'burbs are begging and paying to have extensions to DART built to their towns.

That is the funny part. The leaders in those few communities outside of Dallas made a big stink about it and got enough citizens behind them to pull funding. Like it was some big conspiracy to steal money from the other communities.

Then some several years later, when all the buzz about Dart is occurring, the citizens in those surrounding communities saw what they had bought into. F-U-D! No doubt, they learned their lesson. They now had no access to what everyone else was able to put to good use! I'd hate to be one of those city leaders who was involved in that scam.

What is so interesting though. Now the citizens see exactly what they have to pay to connect to the system. When those city leaders had convinced them that they were paying more than their fair share. Now they see that the price was actually just their portion of the funding and not some big conspiracy, like the city leaders had beat into their head.

[GWB]

Please either post something constructive and appropriate or don't post at all.

I will continue to write as I see fit. It isn't for you to dictate to me, or anyone else, whether what I post is "constructive" or "appropriate". You can disagree with what I say, and make any judgement you want about it, but you don't get to tell me what is or is not appropriate. That's what they have moderators for.
If you don't like what I post use the ignore button.

[sgray]

Moderators also came to be due to folks not being able to be mature and control themselves. You may write as you see fit, so long as it complies with the rules of the forum. I didn't dictate the rules.

In an attempt to stay on-topic, where do you stand on the issue of the aid and how it fits into the MWC project. I don't think you've shared that with us yet.

[mcgrawsdad]

Can one of the pro-light rail folks please post information showing the success of the dallas based dart? TIA

[sgray]

Can one of the pro-light rail folks please post information showing the success of the dallas based dart? TIA

Well, I'm not really pro light-rail, but both wikipedia and dart.org are great places to start. The reason there has been so much focus on DART (as opposed to other cities around the country) is because the folks in that area are glued to automobiles just like we are. Similar situation. So, one would expect a plan for such a system in that kind of area to be voted down and fall flat on it's face, right? Well, that's what's so interesting. The buildout of that system is accelerating, with more support from the people and the government than when it started. Sure, there are still certain areas surrounding dallas that refuse to have anything to do with it, but a majority of the area supports it! I also think it's important to note that the cities that oppose it have never tried it in their city, so it's clearly a matter of them not wanting it as opposed to it not being able to work in their community. It's just impressive to see a system be successful at all in an area which is so dominated by automobiles, like we are.

I would write up more, but the topic is obviously not on Dallas. Hopefully the links help you out.

[danielf1935]

[QUOTE=sgray;200601]Danielf, do not change the subject. Soonerguru highlighted a very good point. In the last several days you have made some wild claims that you are so sure about, yet you provide no facts to back up your statement. You have posted NO supporting facts, therefore your views carry no weight. All you say is "IT'S BAAAAD! IT'S GONNA FAIL! WASTE OF MONEY! OOoooooo..." You know, the FUD-type of stuff. So, unless you are going to step up to the plate and defend your statements, you cannot place blame on someone who is just pointing out your lack of backing facts. Understand?

Here's a good fact you can take with you: Less than 1% of the Oklahoma stimulus package, if approved, would ever be for mass transit. Only $4 million (maximum) was to go for that MWC project. Period. The remaining bulk of that package is strictly for more asphault roads! Talk about hypocrisy!



GWB, the fact that you seem to have been able to draw ties to a particular poster's political affiliations based on a poster's comment (where they simply pointed out that the comment still, to-date, has no basis or supporting facts) doesn't make you look too intelligent. In fact, you are directly name calling. Again, talk about hypocrisy!

I have to admit, while some of us have had good, constructive debate over the last few days on this thread, the only thing I've seen of you is the alleged "name calling". I see no name calling, and have to say that I, too, am getting tired of having to scroll through the FUD just to get to the good debate posts.

Danielf is, through his posts, painting himself as "know-it-all" and has seriously discredited any and all of his statements due to the ever-so-present lack of ability to post supporting facts.

Please either post something constructive and appropriate or don't post at all.

This is constructive debate, not drama class! Or the political section for that matter.[/QUOTE

How sad!!!!!!

[danielf1935]

Can one of the pro-light rail folks please post information showing the success of the dallas based dart? TIA

They can't post what's not available, oh no, I shouldn't have said that, they'll start calling me names again.

[southernskye]

Is there a website somewhere that has the MWC light rail proposal that we could read and see exactly what they are planning on doing with that 4 mil that has been requested?

[betts]

I'm not opposed to light rail at all, nor do I think it's doomed to failure. But I do think that we need to know precisely where people are driving to work. Do we have enough people working downtown or going downtown to support it? When I see traffic at rush hour, it seems like it's the worst between Norman and downtown. It would seem to me that that's the most reasonable place to start a line, with access to downtown and the Health Sciences Center. And, again, since rail has limitations, it needs a great supporting cast: bus service that has good routes, reliable and frequent service.

[Martin]

ok, people... this is a friendly reminder to keep things civil. try to stick to the topic.

-M

[metro]

I'm not opposed to light rail at all, nor do I think it's doomed to failure. But I do think that we need to know precisely where people are driving to work. Do we have enough people working downtown or going downtown to support it? When I see traffic at rush hour, it seems like it's the worst between Norman and downtown. It would seem to me that that's the most reasonable place to start a line, with access to downtown and the Health Sciences Center. And, again, since rail has limitations, it needs a great supporting cast: bus service that has good routes, reliable and frequent service.

I think that's pretty easy to do, even for a layman. If we hire consultants and such, it should be pretty easy, we should be okay as long as ODOT or COTPA isn't behind the wheel. We all know the busy thouroughfares, employment centers, and attractions here in the metro.

[Rover]

Light rail works all over the world in cities both bigger and smaller than OKC. If done correctly it will reshape our city and make higher density more possible. If we continue along the current growth patterns we will continue to have underdeveloped and crumbling large portions of our city, mass sprawl and highly levels of pollution. We are too poor of a city to waste money NOT doing light rail.
IMHO

[Chicken In The Rough]

I am a bit confused about something. I thought all the stimulus package-funded projects had to be "shovel-ready." Is this BT-Tinker line shovel ready?? Why are other more promising lines not shovel ready? Why is a better bus system not shovel ready?

I was recently reading an article about the stimulus money other cities are receiveing. It is incredible and disheartening. Millions of dollars are being thrown at Philadelphia and other cities to make improvements to the streetscape (i.e., more and better street lamps, brick sidewalks, trees, prettier awnings, etc.). Why is OKC spending millions of its own money on projects in the Asian District, Plaza District, Stockyards, etc., then passing up the stimulus money? How is Albuquerque in line for millions in federal aid for its mass-transit rail line when it's half the size of OKC?

[danielf1935]

I am a bit confused about something. I thought all the stimulus package-funded projects had to be "shovel-ready." Is this BT-Tinker line shovel ready?? Why are other more promising lines not shovel ready? Why is a better bus system not shovel ready?

I was recently reading an article about the stimulus money other cities are receiveing. It is incredible and disheartening. Millions of dollars are being thrown at Philadelphia and other cities to make improvements to the streetscape (i.e., more and better street lamps, brick sidewalks, trees, prettier awnings, etc.). Why is OKC spending millions of its own money on projects in the Asian District, Plaza District, Stockyards, etc., then passing up the stimulus money? How is Albuquerque in line for millions in federal aid for its mass-transit rail line when it's half the size of OKC?

Light rail transit projects are not ready because the "Powers that Be" are smart enough to know that it will not work in OKC, and don't want to see the money wasted.

[danielf1935]

I am a bit confused about something. I thought all the stimulus package-funded projects had to be "shovel-ready." Is this BT-Tinker line shovel ready?? Why are other more promising lines not shovel ready? Why is a better bus system not shovel ready?

I was recently reading an article about the stimulus money other cities are receiveing. It is incredible and disheartening. Millions of dollars are being thrown at Philadelphia and other cities to make improvements to the streetscape (i.e., more and better street lamps, brick sidewalks, trees, prettier awnings, etc.). Why is OKC spending millions of its own money on projects in the Asian District, Plaza District, Stockyards, etc., then passing up the stimulus money? How is Albuquerque in line for millions in federal aid for its mass-transit rail line when it's half the size of OKC?

Experts for the most part agree that in order for light rail mass transit to work, you need density, with that said, OKC is to large/spread out for light rail to even come close to being successful, with that said, the following is from the latest census:

Albuquerque Pop. 518,277 Land 180 sq. miles
Oklahoma City Pop. 537,000 Land 625 sq. miles

With these numbers, is easy for any one with common sense to see/understand why light rail will not work here.

[sgray]

I am a bit confused about something. I thought all the stimulus package-funded projects had to be "shovel-ready." Is this BT-Tinker line shovel ready?? Why are other more promising lines not shovel ready? Why is a better bus system not shovel ready?

I was recently reading an article about the stimulus money other cities are receiveing. It is incredible and disheartening. Millions of dollars are being thrown at Philadelphia and other cities to make improvements to the streetscape (i.e., more and better street lamps, brick sidewalks, trees, prettier awnings, etc.). Why is OKC spending millions of its own money on projects in the Asian District, Plaza District, Stockyards, etc., then passing up the stimulus money? How is Albuquerque in line for millions in federal aid for its mass-transit rail line when it's half the size of OKC?

For a project to be shovel ready, there would have to be a plan in place first. The city has no functional plans for mass transit at the moment, not even bus-wise, therefore nothing could be "shovel ready". The MWC project had a plan in-place because the individuals involved with the project had already prepared the plan. To get money thrown at us too, we'd have to have done our homework and it was never done. Our neighboring states have plans and most have functional systems already running.

Experts for the most part agree that in order for light rail mass transit to work, you need density, with that said, OKC is to large/spread out for light rail to even come close to being successful, with that said, the following is from the latest census:

Albuquerque Pop. 518,277 Land 180 sq. miles
Oklahoma City Pop. 537,000 Land 625 sq. miles

With these numbers, is easy for any one with common sense to see/understand why light rail will not work here.

You must just be playin with us. Obviously, you know that density skyrockets when people have a nice transit system that allows them to move about by foot--and then on the flip-side Oklahoma is an excellent case study for anyone to see how out of control the density issue becomes when people are forced to use cars as the only means to get around. 10 miles here 10 miles there. Very wasteful. Your numbers on Albuquerque suggest that they are nearly 3.5 times as dense as we are. Shows how well we are using our land, eh?

Take a look at any of the areas around the country where mass transit has been implemented, and then pay close attention to the areas along the transit routes, both before and after implementation. You'll notice something interesting...growth and density.

Light rail transit projects are not ready because the "Powers that Be" are smart enough to know that it will not work in OKC, and don't want to see the money wasted.

Ahh, yes. The "Powers that Be" that make the decisions because they "know what's best for us better than we do" right? Now how is that dissimilar to a dictatorship? Kind of like the previous governor's standpoint on the casinos...regardless of what the will of the people is or how right or wrong it is, don't let the people vote on it because it's for their own good, right? You are correct in labeling them the "Powers that Be". Obviously not us, "the people".

Light rail works all over the world in cities both bigger and smaller than OKC. If done correctly it will reshape our city and make higher density more possible. If we continue along the current growth patterns we will continue to have underdeveloped and crumbling large portions of our city, mass sprawl and highly levels of pollution. We are too poor of a city to waste money NOT doing light rail.
IMHO

Yup. True True.

[betts]

Experts for the most part agree that in order for light rail mass transit to work, you need density, with that said, OKC is to large/spread out for light rail to even come close to being successful, with that said, the following is from the latest census:

Albuquerque Pop. 518,277 Land 180 sq. miles
Oklahoma City Pop. 537,000 Land 625 sq. miles

With these numbers, is easy for any one with common sense to see/understand why light rail will not work here.

I don't think that's true at all. What I do think is that you need employment and entertainment density. In other words, people need to have jobs or need to want to recreate primarily in areas that the light rail goes. My question has always been whether enough people work downtown or go downtown for light rail to function well. I think it you include the health sciences center with a trolley link, probably there are enough, especially if we start with simple lines running down I-35 to Norman and up the Broadway Extension to Edmond. I don't know that absolutely, but I think it's too simplistic just to look at our population density and assume light rail won't work. If we do spend the money, then we need to study it well and come up with a sensible plan that will serve the greatest number of people. And, it would be nice if we already had a great mass transit infrastructure that would serve any available stops, since you've got inflexibility with light rail. Now would be a good time to start looking seriously at improving our bus and trolley service, while the studying and planning for light rail ensues.